Is Pakistan the only odd one remaining in the region when it comes to system of governance?

[Meengla]

In the context of this thread, it would be great if others could see any evidence to support what you strongly believe in, so that other countries could modify their policies towards Pakistan accordingly.

Look: We are not having some peer-studied scientific research here! We are not comparing efficacies of this or that 'treatments' and defining some 'control' or 'real' groups. We are all here basically guessing. And so am I.

Pakistan's posture has been changing from a 'Fortress of Islam', as we were taught in the 1970s and 1980s in our textbooks, into a pragmatic state believing in 'geo-economics'. But as long as there is a potent threat from India--and very few countries in the world have been facing such a strong adversary right next door for 70+ years, mind you-- Pakistan will be a state with deep sense of 'security' and will posture accordingly. Pakistan does have a choice to India's side-kick like Bangladesh but that idea is unacceptable to Pakistanis.

But I will give you a couple of specific examples. In the 1988/1990 elections in Pakistan, the Muslim League party of Nawaz Sharif in Pakistan had a public claim to hoist the Pakistani flag on New Delhi's Red Fort. Now, as you all know, Nawaz Sharif is being called a 'traitor' and a bosom-buddy of India! Another example: Musharraf is on record to have said that in some shape and form, the LoC = IB solution was going to be accepted. He was the Chief of the Army Staff ruling Pakistan then and he could not have said that without some backing from the military command. In fact, at least one of the attacks on his life were made because of his softening toward the Kashmir issue.

Those are just two examples. In general, the Pakistani leadership has been moving away from a security-state to a state focused on the economy. And that's not just Pakistan, BTW. Several Muslim countries who were against Israel have begun economic ties. The realism in the Islamic world is real and Pakistan is not an exception!

 

[VCheng]

Those are just two examples. In general, the Pakistani leadership has been moving away from a security-state to a state focused on the economy. And that's not just Pakistan, BTW. Several Muslim countries who were against Israel have begun economic ties. The realism in the Islamic world is real and Pakistan is not an exception!

The two examples show what exactly that is more than periodic lip service? Pakistan as the Fortress of Islam is such a powerful tool to generate the right kinds of enthusiasm internally and the productive kind of worries internationally that it will likely not be given up for the foreseeable future. Just because PMIK has uttered the word "geo-economics" does not make it so, for it is merely more lip service according to the impression being tweaked as needed for the moment.

I do agree with you that Pakistan cannot afford to change its posture as the eternal security state with regards to India.

 

[nahtanbob]

Pakistan, on the other hand is still run by liberal western inspired system, people both in civil and military taking inspiration from western ideas and ideologies. Still running western inspired liberal western democracy, where country masses by en large are inclined towards right wing.

if the current system in pakistan is iberal western inspired system I like to see what a right wing regime looks like

 

[Meengla]

The two examples show what exactly that is more than periodic lip service? Pakistan as the Fortress of Islam is such a powerful tool to generate the right kinds of enthusiasm internally and the productive kind of worries internationally that it will likely not be given up for the foreseeable future. Just because PMIK has uttered the word "geo-economics" does not make it so, for it is merely more lip service according to the impression being tweaked as needed for the moment.
I do agree with you that Pakistan cannot afford to change its posture as the eternal security state with regards to India.

Well, as I said, no one can be sure what 220+ million people and their semi-elected Prime Minister really thinks. This is not a scientific study, as I said.
But I tend to think that there is a definite shift in Pakistan's entire outlook. There are unmistakable signs of becoming a pragmatic state, focused on bringing up the standard of living of the people. And I dare say something which would annoy people here: The War on Terror since 2001 and its consequences were horrible for Pakistan. But there is also a loosening of the Deep State in Pakistan. A required realism has been set that, while India can be a lethal adversary, even more lethal are the internal fault-lines and extremism. Pakistanis would be blind to have not seen what happened because of the terrorism inside Pakistan. Sure, India can and should be blamed: But no external power can do the kind of damage as was done in Pakistan unless there was a significant willing cadre inside a country.

 

[nahtanbob]

Look: We are not having some peer-studied scientific research here! We are not comparing efficacies of this or that 'treatments' and defining some 'control' or 'real' groups. We are all here basically guessing. And so am I.

Pakistan's posture has been changing from a 'Fortress of Islam', as we were taught in the 1970s and 1980s in our textbooks, into a pragmatic state believing in 'geo-economics'. But as long as there is a potent threat from India--and very few countries in the world have been facing such a strong adversary right next door for 70+ years, mind you-- Pakistan will be a state with deep sense of 'security' and will posture accordingly. Pakistan does have a choice to India's side-kick like Bangladesh but that idea is unacceptable to Pakistanis.

But I will give you a couple of specific examples. In the 1988/1990 elections in Pakistan, the Muslim League party of Nawaz Sharif in Pakistan had a public claim to hoist the Pakistani flag on New Delhi's Red Fort. Now, as you all know, Nawaz Sharif is being called a 'traitor' and a bosom-buddy of India! Another example: Musharraf is on record to have said that in some shape and form, the LoC = IB solution was going to be accepted. He was the Chief of the Army Staff ruling Pakistan then and he could not have said that without some backing from the military command. In fact, at least one of the attacks on his life were made because of his softening toward the Kashmir issue.

Those are just two examples. In general, the Pakistani leadership has been moving away from a security-state to a state focused on the economy. And that's not just Pakistan, BTW. Several Muslim countries who were against Israel have begun economic ties. The realism in the Islamic world is real and Pakistan is not an exception!

it is more like the populations of Muslim countries has increased and the economic opportunities have not. It is more like Allah meets Malthus
With the internet, cellphone and satellite television it is hard to put out bombastic claims

@Meengla

 

[VCheng]

Well, as I said, no one can be sure what 220+ million people and their semi-elected Prime Minister really thinks. This is not a scientific study, as I said.
But I tend to think that there is a definite shift in Pakistan's entire outlook. There are unmistakable signs of becoming a pragmatic state, focused on bringing up the standard of living of the people. And I dare say something which would annoy people here: The War on Terror since 2001 and its consequences were horrible for Pakistan. But there is also a loosening of the Deep State in Pakistan. A required realism has been set that, while India can be a lethal adversary, even more lethal are the internal fault-lines and extremism. Pakistanis would be blind to have not seen what happened because of the terrorism inside Pakistan. Sure, India can and should be blamed: But no external power can do the kind of damage as was done in Pakistan unless there was a significant willing cadre inside a country.

Let me just say that I hope against hope that you will be shown to be correct that Pakistan is becoming a pragmatic state, focused on bringing up the standard of living of the people. The evidence should be fairly clear to assess for such a change.

 

[CatSultan]

This is good to evade sanctions from west.

That was good before. But now the West is losing it's power and its time to change.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistan, on the other hand is still run by liberal western inspired system

Honestly Pakistan is the most desi society other than Afghanistan on the list. China is essentially clone of a European political philosophy - communism. Iran is a mullacracy laid over a very Europenized society followed by india which is ran by elite which is mostly product of British rule.

 

[Azadkashmir]

pakistan is mota batwa note power.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

if the current system in pakistan is iberal western inspired system I like to see what a right wing regime looks like

You go through all the cabinet, bureaucracy , military establishment in Pakistan and show me right wingers like you see in India, Iran and now, Afghanistan.

Honestly Pakistan is the most desi society other than Afghanistan on the list. China is essentially clone of a European political philosophy - communism. Iran is a mullacracy laid over a very Europenized society followed by india which is ran by elite which is mostly product of British rule.

China has its own version of socialism merged with capitalism.
India is basically run by hindu extremists/terrorists of RSS, their hold of every state institution is pretty obvious now, just not the government.
Iran has been run from qom.

Its pretty damn obvious that Pakistan is surrounded by right wing governments/regimes and leftist ideologies and hold on power is truly buried.

 

[nahtanbob]

You go through all the cabinet, bureaucracy , military establishment in Pakistan and show me right wingers like you see in India, Iran and now, Afghanistan.

you have to define right wing for your elite

these would be my criteria in no particular order or priority
open to taxes on the rich to support the poor
women rights
blasphemy
democracy
press freedom
peace with neighbors
treatment of poor and less fortunate
open to social/cultural change

feel free to add more

 

[Taimoor Khan]

In the context of this thread, it would be great if others could see any evidence to support what you strongly believe in, so that other countries could modify their policies towards Pakistan accordingly.


Autocorrect. Of course, but how? Mob rule? Street power? Elections? Dictator-ul-Momineen? After all, there have been many opportunities to implement what the Objective Resolution demands, but Pakistan has been careful to avoid actually doing something effective for many reasons, all of which remain operable.

You are taking very extreme positions. No, no need for all that you mention. It's the Pakistani state institutions which needs to step up, perhaps via judiciary to auto correct the path Pakistan unfortunately took right after its independence. Deep state/establishment must also play its role.

As I said, Pakistani state unfortunately got hijacked by liberal leftist elites and let the country veer off from the building blocks of the state.

What also needs to be understood, that while it is important to have working relationships with nations oceans apart, your immediate neighbour is what matter the most. All the nations which we share majority of our border have gone right wing. EU will not tolerate a right wing member state within as its primarily a left liberal entity. Similarly, having been sandwiched within right wing ideologies, Pakistan needs to adopt pretty quickly. This left wing hold on Pakistan, going forward is becoming untenable. Indian extremist will take the Pakistani liberal power brokers as weaklings and will keep on trying their luck to destabilise Pakistan. Iran will always look at Pakistan with suspicion due to liberal hold here which basically translate to American lackies. Now comes the taliban. I can tell you now, if its not them, Pakistani liberals will find a way to try screwing Taliban over in one way or another, causing another round of horrible situation between Pakistan and Afghanistan, this time, with no end/solution.

Time change, Pakistan must as well.

you have to define right wing for your elite

these would be my criteria in no particular order or priority
open to taxes on the rich to support the poor
women rights
blasphemy
democracy
press freedom
peace with neighbors
treatment of poor and less fortunate
open to social/cultural change

feel free to add more

Right wing in this region mean religious extremists. The likes of Indian RSS, Iraian mullahs and now Talibans.

Now you go through the power brokers in Pakistan, and tell me do you find anything comparable here in relation to Pakistan's neighbours?

 

[nahtanbob]

Right wing in this region mean religious extremists. The likes of Indian RSS, Iraian mullahs and now Talibans.

Now you go through the power brokers in Pakistan, and tell me do you find anything comparable here in relation to Pakistan's neighbours?

the power brokers in Pakistan are least reflective of the masses

 

[crankthatskunk]

Handsome prime Minister will transform this country into a Islamic-socialist utopia and saving us from the degenerate liberal west.
Things like Zinna, alcoholal, clubs will be banned. Because it's haram right. Its not like our handsome prime minister was a playboy who used indulge in such things or.

Seriously why do so many Pakistani consider him as a protector of islam?

When you asked for forgiveness, change your ways, you could be forgiven.
In any case, forgiving the PM is in the hands of "The Creator", who are you to judge!!

He has never denied or hidden his past, it is in front of everyone, has he ever denied it !!
While others despite public pronouncements off "Aik paisa" ki corruption can not answer for billions of rupees deposited in to their accounts by their own poor servants. Or in case of Zardri billions of rupees in fake bank accounts.
But one thing is certain, he is a clean and honest man. Not even his ardent enemies have anything to prove against him personally.
Apart from the Economic upturn, he is gradually doing lots of social good deeds too.
start of different Ahsas programs to cater for Down Trodden Pakistanis.
Whoever introduced "Sehat Cards" "Ghar " for people on the streets, food distribution among poor etc.

The other two parties who had been in power recently and in the past, are famous for stealing from Pakistan.
Do you have any doubts!!

When you criticise, use facts, not fictions, or your misguided sanctimonious speech.

 

[Neurath]

You are assuming a lot of non sense to be honest.

In Pakistani perspective, Liberals are basically mental slaves of western civilization, if I have to really narrow it down. From political side, the like of PPP, PML-N- MQM, ANP, sub nationalist lot, most of them market themselves as liberal entities. Basically well entrenched elites, who have done nothing but harm Pakistan throughout their hold of power in history.

A rightwinger on the other is someone who believes in Pakistan own culture, identity, its ways, its social structure, have no mental slavery issue, and above all, returning Pakistan to what it was suppose to be, an Islamic republic, based on first state in Madina. IK can be classed as nearest thing in political scene of Pakistan who can classed as right winger.


Right wing ideologies will be different among nations. Indian right winger got nothing in common with Persian right winger, both are our neighbours. And now when Pakistan is completely surrounded by right wing ideologies in power, it will be naive to think that we can live in isolation and not get effected by what is happening in our neighbour. Status quo liberal powers in Pakistan have to up their game, shed their mental slavery for the start, or become redundant, because it is just a matter of time.

Liberals are not mental slaves of Western Civilization as you would put it. I don't care if PPP, PMLN or MQM call themselves 'liberals'. ISIS calls itself Muslims but are they really representative of Islam? Liberalism is all about respecting others' opinons, promoting democracy, individual rights and civil liberties. It was never about sub-nationalism as you would put it.

Pakistan can follow its own system, culture and identity. Liberalism doesn't state anything antithetical to that, does it? All it asks for is that minorities and all sections of the population be respected and granted rights in this Pakistan's own system that you propose. IK isn't right wing by the way.

Again, you fail to answer my question, what is the liberal aspect in Pakistan that you want to remove. You continue to talk about every other country being right wing, me being naive and isolation and what not. Again, the only thing non-liberal about our neighbours is that they've forgotten entirely about minorities and the only somewhat liberal aspect about Pakistan is that we do our best to respect minorities, although not in the most perfect manner. There are no liberal powers in Pakistan, you have Mullahs who want to take you back to the stone ages, ethno-nationalists that want this country broken into pieces, actual liberals who are painted through the ethno-nationalist brush by religious extemists because they can't tolerate minority rights, the larger moderate population that most people are from 'live and let live' and then a Centrist in power who keeps all of this in balance with the support of the establishment.