Is PA bloated? Can modernization increase if it hires at slow speed?

[denel]

Troop reduction dear God what did I just read....Pakistan faces a million strong army just a a nose hair away, how do people propose to fight them? And no reserves are no substitute for a full time professional force.
Pakistan neither has the resources to increase the level of capital stock to balance out a reduction.
The nation has 220 million people if anything the size should go up.

correct; the level is valid for now. but a huge need is there for high level of mechanisation in terms of mobility.

 

[Gryphon]

Army numbers are going up. People calling for size reduction have no idea how many units from the eastern border are currently involved along the western front.

 

[waz]

Army numbers are going up. People calling for size reduction have no idea how many units from the eastern border are currently involved along the western front.

Well said bro, the threats are just immense now.

correct; the level is valid for now. but a huge need is there for high level of mechanisation in terms of mobility.

Yes spot on.

 

[Sal12]

Army numbers are going up. People calling for size reduction have no idea how many units from the eastern border are currently involved along the western front.

Do you know the current strength of pak army. How much increased in numbers are planned.

 

[Neutron]

Troop reduction dear God what did I just read....Pakistan faces a million strong army just a a nose hair away, how do people propose to fight them? And no reserves are no substitute for a full time professional force.
Pakistan neither has the resources to increase the level of capital stock to balance out a reduction.
The nation has 220 million people if anything the size should go up.

With the evolution of Warfare & Induction of very destructive & modern weapons system we can mange conflict & war without conventional approach, in which superiority of manpower & equipment at a given point is the key of success.

We can adopt an unconventional approach & "a strategy never tried before" by increasing our Number of fighter Aircrafts, Helicopters, Tactical & Sub Tactical Missiles & reducing reliance on infantry & other ground forces such as Artillery & Tanks.

I think conventional approach to fight war is obsolete now.

In this age of information warfare, psychological operations are more important then anything else.

Why we don't war game & plan operations to attain psychological dominance on our adversaries instead of wasting our resources to maintain obsolete equipment.

 

[JPMM]

One

viable

reorganization ​

​

option is (to save men) to keep ALL the Army structure as it is, and to cut the 4th Rifle Company in each Infantry Battalion. This could be a Reserve Company on Mobilization. You should retrain to operate with 3 rifle Coys instead of 4, as most of the Armies do.
There must be some 250 Infantry Battalions, so 31000 men.

Thanks

 

[hussain0216]

There are 1.4 BILLION Indians

Add afghanis on our western border and possible threats from West etc

Then like it or not we need a 1 million strong well armed army plus paramilitaries

 

[PurAzamBaHadaf]

Sorry, but 70% is not spent on salaries ad pensions. Care to provide a source where you received this info?

 

[messiach]

Source?

Around 70% of the budget is alocated for salaries and pensions.

How much would that cost?

Moreover, more than 330 K paramilitary forces can be fully trained to fill the gap if any. What do this forum thinks?

 

[waz]

With the evolution of Warfare & Induction of very destructive & modern weapons system we can mange conflict & war without conventional approach, in which superiority of manpower & equipment at a given point is the key of success.

We can adopt an unconventional approach & "a strategy never tried before" by increasing our Number of fighter Aircrafts, Helicopters, Tactical & Sub Tactical Missiles & reducing reliance on infantry & other ground forces such as Artillery & Tanks.

I think conventional approach to fight war is obsolete now.

In this age of information warfare, psychological operations are more important then anything else.

Why we don't war game & plan operations to attain psychological dominance on our adversaries instead of wasting our resources to maintain obsolete equipment.

Well bro warfare has not evolved a great deal from conflicts of the past few decades, some weapons have yes. Pakistan simply cannot fight an overwhelming conventional foe with unconventional means, this would lead to a horrible defeat and the end of the nation. Look at the German war machine, towards the latter years even though they had an edge in technology e.g. the Tiger would knock out multiple T-34's, but in the end the sheer weight of numbers just swept them aside, and here the Germans used a conventional approach with strong force multiplying weapons. Using unconventional means against an Indian army that would be wielding not only weapons as good as and better than the Pakistani Army, and greater numbers is a non-starter.

"Never tried" strategies are a risk that Pakistan cannot afford to take, especially with the lack of tactical depth and the lack of resources against the enemy. The margin of error is practically nil for the armed forces of Pakistan. I would say and agree with you that unconventional and new strategies can be used in unison with the forces main battle plans.

As for conventional war being history I'm afraid it is very much here and alive in the present day, the most recent conflicts have been text book conventional affairs and it won't change for the next few decades at least.
I hear what you say about Psych ops etc, but again use as a supplemental strategy.

 

[Signalian]

Not training, but equipment and support, e.g. new plate carriers, assault rifles, NVG, denser air support, etc

I could have been extremely critical of OP, but decided against that option as not to disheart members from sharing ideas and opening threads. That percentage and the generic approach - debatable. The %age of budget presented, is a massive topic on its own.

Coming back to your reply:

Which Terrain will you give preference for upgradation or top standard equipment and support?

PA is deployed in following Terrain:
1. Snow + Mountains (Kashmir)
2. Mountains (KPK and Kashmir)
3. Plains + canals + hills (Punjab)
4. Semi desert (Lower Punjab)
5. Desert (Sindh)
6. marshes + swamps (Rann of kutch/Sir Creek)

Which Formation (including support arms like Arty, AD etc) will you give preference for upgradation or top standard equipment and support?
1. Armored Divisions
2. Mechanised Divisions
3. SSG and LCB
4. Indp Armored Brigades
5. Aviation
or
6. Modernize Infantry formations (which forms the bulk of the ground force)
7. Airborne/Air assault forces (created as dedicated para troop brigade)
8. Missile (surface to surface like Hatf -all types)

Which FORCE will you give preference for upgradation or top standard equipment and support?
1. Special Forces (SSG/SSGN/SSW) - LCB - SF wings of FC/Rangers/Levies
2. Regular PA
3. FC and Rangers
4. Levies/Khasadars etc
5. Marines
6. Mountain Light Infantry

Which nature of WAR will you give preference for upgradation or top standard equipment and support?
1. Conventional
2. COIN and Internal affairs
3. Fifth Generation including Hybrid (Cyber+ Media etc)
4. Space

PN and PAF have to remain excluded ?

One

viable
reorganization ​

option is (to save men) to keep ALL the Army structure as it is, and to cut the 4th Rifle Company in each Infantry Battalion. This could be a Reserve Company on Mobilization. You should retrain to operate with 3 rifle Coys instead of 4, as most of the Armies do.
There must be some 250 Infantry Battalions, so 31000 men.

Thanks

From an administrative purpose, yes thats feasible, however, the 4th Rifle Company (Delta Coy) - usually acts as the reserve company and also preserves the fighting capacity of the Battalion, which maybe lost if Alpha and Bravo Coys get mauled badly and lose their fighting strength while Charlie Coy has to hold the front. Along with Support Weapons Platoon, the Delta Coy provides depth to the Battalion. This could also affect AOR of entire Infantry brigade or Divisions as number of troops are reduced. The whole doctrine will need to be revised or changed.

Merely talking about Pakistan Army, if the Delta Coy is disbanded, PA will raise new infantry formations thus increasing numbers of battalions. This was seen in case of Armor; PA had 75 or 77 Tanks per regiment a long time back, PA reduced it to 44-45 and formed new Armor regiments. PA is already an infantry dominated Army, just like Indian Army. The number of troops in some infantry battalions deployed in Mountain formations are already less due to nature of combat in that terrain.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I could have been extremely critical of OP, but decided against that option as not to disheart members from sharing ideas and opening threads. That percentage and the generic approach - debatable. The %age of budget presented, is a massive topic on its own.

Coming back to your reply:

Which Terrain will you give preference for upgradation or top standard equipment and support?

PA is deployed in following Terrain:
1. Snow + Mountains (Kashmir)
2. Mountains (KPK and Kashmir)
3. Plains + canals + hills (Punjab)
4. Semi desert (Lower Punjab)
5. Desert (Sindh)
6. marshes + swamps (Rann of kutch/Sir Creek)

Which Formation (including support arms like Arty, AD etc) will you give preference for upgradation or top standard equipment and support?
1. Armored Divisions
2. Mechanised Divisions
3. SSG and LCB
4. Indp Armored Brigades
5. Aviation
or
6. Modernize Infantry formations (which forms the bulk of the ground force)
7. Airborne/Air assault forces (created as dedicated para troop brigade)
8. Missile (surface to surface like Hatf -all types)

Which FORCE will you give preference for upgradation or top standard equipment and support?
1. Special Forces (SSG/SSGN/SSW) - LCB - SF wings of FC/Rangers/Levies
2. Regular PA
3. FC and Rangers
4. Levies/Khasadars etc
5. Marines
6. Mountain Light Infantry

Which nature of WAR will you give preference for upgradation or top standard equipment and support?
1. Conventional
2. COIN and Internal affairs
3. Fifth Generation including Hybrid (Cyber+ Media etc)
4. Space

PN and PAF have to remain excluded ?

Which of those do you think would have the greatest impact in a conventional war scenario if given the added investment? Let's say you got $1.5 b USD over the next 3 years to make a change across all 3 services; what areas would you focus on modernizing/adding to in order to create the biggest net-impact in the region?

 

[pzfz]

I hear what you say about Psych ops etc, but again use as a supplemental strategy.

psyops will not contribute to a winning campaign if it's used as a sideshow/supplemental strategy. it has to be integrated and given the primacy it deserves i.e. above conventional warfare capability because it involves creating greater capability in nodes of national power (econ, society, innovation, tech, medias) previously left untouched by successive Pakistani govts and Pakmil.

Which of those do you think would have the greatest impact in a conventional war scenario if given the added investment? Let's say you got $1.5 b USD over the next 3 years to make a change across all 3 services; what areas would you focus on modernizing/adding to in order to create the biggest net-impact in the region?

If it wasn't more obvious now, Pak needs to focus its energy in intel, psyops, and cyber/space domains.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Troop reduction dear God what did I just read....Pakistan faces a million strong army just a a nose hair away, how do people propose to fight them? And no reserves are no substitute for a full time professional force.
Pakistan neither has the resources to increase the level of capital stock to balance out a reduction.
The nation has 220 million people if anything the size should go up.

But u do realize that India is 7x greater than us. But thier army is approx 2.4× greater than us. Also they have China as a neighbour

 

[Signalian]

Which of those do you think would have the greatest impact in a conventional war scenario if given the added investment? Let's say you got $1.5 b USD over the next 3 years to make a change across all 3 services; what areas would you focus on modernizing/adding to in order to create the biggest net-impact in the region?

Army: Make airborne/air assault units, e.g. convert 111 Brigade to dedicated Airborne or air assault
PAF: Expand SSW into COIN and BEL operating force. No more dependency on SSG in any Ops.
PN: Electronic warfare expansion- whether vessels or aircrafts.
Marines: LCB standard Air assault force using helis.

All the above since region is Pakistan and net-impact will be internal security(need of the hour) by conducting IB- Ops which Police/FC/Rangers cannot conduct, on the other hand training will also improve capability in conducting Overseas SF Ops by all forces of limited scale in peacetime and larger scale in war. Make Pakistani SF and Light infantry the deadliest in the region. Navy needs an edge over IN, that edge cannot be in numbers or missiles but modern technology like EW.