Is Indian economy really better than Pakistan?

[Articulate]

In a single sentence you overlook and disregard CPEC. That really says you have no idea what you are talking about. Your baniya government is pissed off about CPEC and is trying hard to make it go away. Really says it all.

My Govt. doesn't have any issue with CPEC as XYZEC as long as it does not go through P..O..K. That is Indian territory illegally occupied by Pakistan and hence it is a legal issue.

Other than that, its only in Pakistanis head that CPEC is a big deal. All the hard numbers /data is pointing clearly to a dramatically increasing debt, dramatically constant FDI (that means NOT increasing) and dramatically constant export numbers.

You can do all the mental gymnastics about how CPEC is the next sliced bread but the data says otherwise.

 

[Lotus_stalk]

Not just stunted, Pakistan has more malnourished people than India or Bangladesh, infact it is the worst performer in Hunger index in South Asia

Only Pakistani Punjab is arable and fertile, which is on average more arable than India. So the Punjabis in Pakistan have a feeling that they are richer than India. Even from their Punjab we took away their eastern rivers Ravi, Beas and Sutlej under Indus water treaty. And we can use 20% of their western rivers, Indus chenab and jhelum. Pakistan is also the most water stressed country.

If Pakistan troubles India about Kashmir on religious issues. Basically since they can't win a war against India, they have using proxy warfare and religion to create trouble. What RSS is doing in India, Pakistan is doing in Kashmir. If Pakistan wants to do hindu-muslim we should give it hindu-muslim.
Chenab river originates in Hindu majority Himachal pradesh and flows through Hindu majority Jammu.
Kashmir insurgency is only in 3.5 districts. We should take Chenab away it Pakistan creates further trouble.

 

[Articulate]

Lol yes quite right. Significantly higher poverty rate in Bharat, significantly worse access to sanitation, attrocious income equality. And you have left Pakistan behind apparently.

Its only a shocker to you.
A comprehensive index called HDI - Human Development Index is widely available online for Pakistanis without knowledge to peruse. Kindly look up at the latest figures and see that Pakistan fares lower than India. Other than that, once again, you are free to do mental gymnastics.

 

[SMC]

My Govt. doesn't have any issue with CPEC as XYZEC as long as it does not go through P..O..K. That is Indian territory illegally occupied by Pakistan and hence it is a legal issue.

Other than that, its only in Pakistanis head that CPEC is a big deal. All the hard numbers /data is pointing clearly to a dramatically increasing debt, dramatically constant FDI (that means NOT increasing) and dramatically constant export numbers.

You can do all the mental gymnastics about how CPEC is the next sliced bread but the data says otherwise.

As I said, if you have no idea what you are talking about then don't comment on it. And clearly you have absolutely no idea about CPEC. Many of the CPEC projects are under construction and are just starting to bear fruit, and will change things quite significantly by 2018 when 10,000 MW comes online along with 2,500 km of motorway. And you will still have no idea what you are saying. In the interest of saving your time, don't bother discussing something you have no idea about.

 

[SMC]

Its only a shocker to you.
A comprehensive index called HDI - Human Development Index is widely available online for Pakistanis without knowledge to peruse. Kindly look up at the latest figures and see that Pakistan fares lower than India. Other than that, once again, you are free to do mental gymnastics.

The only one doing mental gymnastics here is you, changing goal posts one after the other, posting selective facts, etc.

 

[Articulate]

As I said, if you have no idea what you are talking about then don't comment on it. And clearly you have absolutely no idea about CPEC. Many of the CPEC projects are under construction and are just starting to bear fruit, and will change things quite significantly by 2018 when 10,000 MW comes online along with 2,500 km of motorway. And you will still have no idea what you are saying. In the interest of saving your time, don't bother discussing something you have no idea about.

And don't bother painting the future. We have seen Pakistanis doing that for decades now without results.

Pakistan can take loans and have Chinese build energy projects. That's not a big deal. Every country on the planet can do that. This isn't investment, but debt. We know how modern economies thrive, we know the path. As I said, unfortunately for people like you, Pakistan Govt has to put out hard data that we can track. We do see that. We do know what is going on. Its not a mystery.

 

[SMC]

And don't bother painting the future. We have seen Pakistanis doing that for decades now without results.

And sadly for you, unlike before, this time all the projects are under construction. 10,000 MW? Mostly complete. 2500 km motorways? Some mostly complete, some half way through construction. They are not just on paper. This is why I say, don't bother arguing about something you have no idea about. You will never be able to understand what you are dealing with and what's going on. By the time you realize what's happening the train would have left the station.

Pakistan can take loans and have Chinese build energy projects. That's not a big deal. Every country on the planet can do that. This isn't investment, but debt. We know how modern economies thrive, we know the path. As I said, unfortunately for people like you, Pakistan Govt has to put out hard data that we can track. We do see that. We do know what is going on. Its not a mystery.

Armchair experts usually have a hard time seeing the big picture and can only view things from their narrow lens. That's why they are always caught by surprise when things change quickly. Have you heard of BOT projects? That's what most projects are, not debt. You know the debt projects are 15-30% interest OVER THEIR ENTIRE lifetime? Of course you don't. Yes, bharatis know more about CPEC than us lol, and can figure out why it's so bad for us. Which is why your navy sent a sub to Gwadar, and why your intelligence is trying all it can to sabotage CPEC. Fucking idiots.

 

[SMC]

Its only a shocker to you.
A comprehensive index called HDI - Human Development Index is widely available online for Pakistanis without knowledge to peruse. Kindly look up at the latest figures and see that Pakistan fares lower than India. Other than that, once again, you are free to do mental gymnastics.

It's interesting though, you guys are just barely ahead in HDI and in fact behind in WEF rankings. You guys consider this 'leaving someone behind' and 'no comparison', much like any other per capita metric, LOL. What a bunch of buffoons.

Its only a shocker to you.
A comprehensive index called HDI - Human Development Index is widely available online for Pakistanis without knowledge to peruse. Kindly look up at the latest figures and see that Pakistan fares lower than India. Other than that, once again, you are free to do mental gymnastics.

 

[Lotus_stalk]

In a single sentence you overlook and disregard CPEC. That really says you have no idea what you are talking about. Your baniya government is pissed off about CPEC and is trying hard to make it go away. Really says it all.

CPEC will benefit Pakistan but not as much as you expect. Lion's share of CPEC will go to lion(China).

What is CPEC? China wants to connect Xinjiag to Sea port. Xinjiang is the most underdeveloped area with no population like Afghanistan. For building the land route and sea port, China will spend its resources and use its own labor for construction. Chinese labor and resources (like steal) is also included in the 52 billion dollars. Your government has given lots of free land to Chinese.
In all this China has added some coal plants( while China is shutting down coal plants) and some infrastructure in cities.

Basically China is creating sea access for Xinjiang plus some infrastructure, on free land and with Chinese labour and resources. And Pakistan will repay Chinese expense in cold hard cash with 27% return.
If Pakistan wants just benefit of CPEC, Pakistan has to take its share from Lion. But you can't, since you can't disappoint your iron brother.

China will use first opportunity to play India against Pakistan and keep its Lion's share of CPEC.
Ready to change CPEC name, says Chinese envoy to India
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/203390-Ready-to-change-CPEC-name-says-Chinese-envoy-to-India

We hope you don't end up like Sri-lanka and Cambodia...
Cambodia, Sri Lanka and the China debt trap

http://www.atimes.com/article/cambodia-sri-lanka-china-debt-trap/

 

[Centurion2016]

Indian ECONOMY TODAY IS

$2.4 TRILLION not $2.1 TRILLION

India has $370 billion in forex ..........Pakistan has $20 billion

India exports $25 billion per MONTH AND Pakistan $25 billion PER YEAR

ITS A ridiculous comparison

THIS IS A RUROPEAN FORCAST

http://statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-projected-gdp.php

Pakistans GDP is suggested at $256 billion . which would mean your GDP is less than bangaladesh . PLZ SEE TABLE your self

 

[SMC]

CPEC will benefit Pakistan but not as much as you expect. Lion's share of CPEC will go to lion(China).

What is CPEC? China wants to connect Xinjiag to Sea port. Xinjiang is the most underdeveloped area with no population like Afghanistan. For building the land route and sea port, China will spend its resources and use its own labor for construction. Chinese labor and resources (like steal) is also included in the 52 billion dollars. Your government has given lots of free land to Chinese.
In all this China has added some coal plants( while China is shutting down coal plants) and some infrastructure in cities.

Basically China is creating sea access for Xinjiang plus some infrastructure, on free land and with Chinese labour and resources. And Pakistan will repay Chinese expense in cold hard cash with 27% return.
If Pakistan wants just benefit of CPEC, Pakistan has to take its share from Lion. But you can't, since you can't disappoint your iron brother.

China will use first opportunity to play India against China and get its Lion's share of CPEC.
Ready to change CPEC name, says Chinese envoy to India
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/203390-Ready-to-change-CPEC-name-says-Chinese-envoy-to-India

We hope you don't end up like Srilanka and Cambodia...
Cambodia, Sri Lanka and the China debt trap

http://www.atimes.com/article/cambodia-sri-lanka-china-debt-trap/

Majority of CPEC is power projects, which does not effect China. CPEC also includes transit projects for all major cities, which also does not impact China. The motorways being built as part of CPEC don't need to be motorways, they could be 2 lane highways, as it doesn't make any difference for China. How do you explain all this?

Most projects are BOT projects. No debt there.

The most interesting thing is you guys fail to see the big picture. CPEC is just the start. You fail to see the FDI this will bring, the industries it will create, the significant increase in GDP growth, the stability it will bring. That will cover any CPEC debt many, many times over.

 

[Safriz]

Only Pakistani Punjab is arable and fertile, which is on average more arable than India. So the Punjabis in Pakistan have a feeling that they are richer than India. Even from their Punjab we took away their eastern rivers Ravi, Beas and Sutlej under Indus water treaty. And we can use 20% of their western rivers, Indus chenab and jhelum. Pakistan is also the most water stressed country.

If Pakistan troubles India about Kashmir on religious issues. Basically since they can't win a war against India, they have using proxy warfare and religion to create trouble. What RSS is doing in India, Pakistan is doing in Kashmir. If Pakistan wants to do hindu-muslim we should give it hindu-muslim.
Chenab river originates in Hindu majority Himachal pradesh and flows through Hindu majority Jammu.
Kashmir insurgency is only in 3.5 districts. We should take Chenab away it Pakistan creates further trouble.

Thanks for your concern , but Pakistan produces 106% of required annual wheat and 200% of required annual rice and harvest of every major crop is increasing.Not to mention we are also fourth largest milk producer in the world.

 

[Lotus_stalk]

It's interesting though, you guys are just barely ahead in HDI and in fact behind in WEF rankings. You guys consider this 'leaving someone behind' and 'no comparison', much like any other per capita metric, LOL. What a bunch of buffoons.

racism is the last refuge of a scoundrel....

India has 8 times population than Pakistan because India has 8 times arable land. Plus India has the benefit of larger economy and scale.

China exports lots of things, but increasing exports results in higher currency exchange rate. To keep its currency low China buys lots of US and Euro bonds, buying negates selling. Which is Trillions of dollars, on which China gets a return of 1%. CPEC and OBOR will give a return of 27%. China is selling US/ Euro bonds and investing in OBOR.

CPEC is not the game changer that you think it would be.

When you use your low quality lignite from tharpakar coal mines in your coal power plants. The pollution and health problems itself will cause 52 billion dollar loss.

Majority of CPEC is power projects, which does not effect China. CPEC also includes transit projects for all major cities, which also does not impact China. The motorways being built as part of CPEC don't need to be motorways, they could be 2 lane highways, as it doesn't make any difference for China. How do you explain all this?

Most projects are BOT projects. No debt there.

The most interesting thing is you guys fail to see the big picture. CPEC is just the start. You fail to see the FDI this will bring, the industries it will create, the significant increase in GDP growth, the stability it will bring. That will cover any CPEC debt many, many times over.

BOT means build operate and transfer. China will build and operate till it recovers 52 billiion plus 27 % return. the 52 billion which China says it will spend in the form of its labour and resources. Operating means owning it till cost is recovered in the form of toll tax etc.

Are you sure about power projects...
Pakistan, China drop 5 CPEC energy projects
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...t-power-plant-under-cpec-in-pak/1/967824.html
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...t-power-plant-under-cpec-in-pak/1/967824.html

Thanks for your concern , but Pakistan produces 106% of required annual wheat and 200% of required annual rice and harvest of every major crop is increasing.Not to mention we are also fourth largest milk producer in the world.

Each Indian has 10 % more arable land than Pakistan. And India is largest milk producer.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/India/Pakistan/Agriculture

India still has more potential to increase arable land than Pakistan, since India has more forestland than Pakistan. Forest per capita of India is several times of Pakistan.

Pakistan does produce lots of rice and wheat, but when 50% of Pakistani children are stunted and Pakistan has more malnutrition-ed people than India and Bangladesh. Figure of 106% and 200% of required is not believable when there are 50% stunted children in Pakistan. Abolish your zamindari system, you would realize you barely meet your requirement.

Give Me Land, Lots Of Land: Only 5% Of Pakistanis Own Two-Thirds of Farmlands; One-Half Of Farmers Are Landless
http://www.ibtimes.com/give-me-land...two-thirds-farmlands-one-half-farmers-1421572

Landlords oppose village uplift to perpetuate feudal-tribal system: study
https://www.dawn.com/news/1172680

 

[SMC]

racism is the last refuge of a scoundrel....

That is a general insult, not a racist comment.

China exports lots of things, but increasing exports results in higher currency exchange rate. To keep its currency low China buys lots of US and Euro bonds, buying negates selling. Which is Trillions of dollars, on which China gets a return of 1%. CPEC and OBOR will give a return of 27%. China is selling US/ Euro bonds and investing in OBOR.

CPEC is not the game changer that you think it would be.

The return from bonds is much higher than 1%, depending on how long you keep it. 3-4% per year from bonds is quite common.

I am not sure why you guys are making a big hoopla about the interest and returns. Listen, no investment is free. Even with FDI, the investor is hoping to double or triple their money.

When you use your low quality lignite from tharpakar coal mines in your coal power plants. The pollution and health problems itself will cause 52 billion dollar loss.

Thus far one energy project of 1320 MW is based on coal projects. And I am sure you know more about the low quality coal than the engineers.

BOT means build operate and transfer. China will build and operate till it recovers 52 billiion plus 27 % return. the 52 billion which China says it will spend in the form of its labour and resources. Operating means owning it till cost is recovered in the form of toll tax etc.

And again, what's the problem? Even with FDI the investor is hoping to double or triple the money.

Are you sure about power projects...
Pakistan, China drop 5 CPEC energy projects
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...t-power-plant-under-cpec-in-pak/1/967824.html

I am absolutely sure. Here are energy projects currently that are entirely under the banner of CPEC:

PUNJAB | Sahiwal Coal Power Plant | 1320 MW | U/C
PUNJAB | Balloki Power Plant | 1223 MW | U/C
SINDH | Pakistan Port Qasim Coal Power Plant | 1320 MW | U/C
SINDH | Wind Power Projects | 1530 MW | U/C
PUNJAB | Haveli Bahadur Shah Power Plant | 1230 MW | U/C
PUNJAB | Bhikki Power Plant | 1180 MW | U/C
BALOCHISTAN | HUBCO Coal Power Plant | 1320 MW | U/C
SINDH | Thar Engro Coal Power Plant | 660 MW | U/C
JHELUM RIVER | Karot Hydropower Project | 720 MW | U/C
KHYBER PAKHTUNKHWA | Suki Kinari Hydropower Plant | 870 MW | U/C
[URL='http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1733265']AZAD JAMMU & KASHMIR | Neelum–Jhelum Hydropower Plant | 969 MW | U/C[/URL]

Here are energy projects that CPEC is investing in but are not necessarily under the banner of CPEC:


PUNJAB | Chashma Nuclear Power Complex (C3, C4, C5 Reactors) | 680 MW | U/C
BAHAWALPUR | Quaid-e-Azam Solar Park | 1500 MW | U/C
SINDH | Karachi Nuclear Power Complex (K2, K3 Reactors) | 2,200 MW | U/C
KHYBER PAKHTUNKHWA | Tarbela Dam 4th Extension | 1410 MW | U/C

The 5 projects you mention will likely be replaced by another project if they haven't already. They dropped a lot of projects that are using LNG as the source.

 

[Zaahir]

Interesting thing to notice, Pakistan's economy was re-based nearly 13 years ago while bharat's was re-based just a few years ago. Once Pakistan's economy is rebased we're talking about a 400-450 billion dollar economy, its GDP per capita while be even higher than bharat's. And here bharatis are dreaming wet about Bangladesh overtaking Pakistan.



Perhaps CPEC can also pay for your complete and utter lack of knowledge about CPEC, along with a new dhoti for you.

Mr. Young economist. Here's something for you. The base change for the Indian economy did not change the size of the economy. What changed was the growth rates in the new series.
As far as Pakistan is concerned even if the base change increases your gdp size by 100-150 bn-nothing changes. You are still a small economy.

I usually don't comment on cpec. The assumptions too grandiose and delusions too high. Remember power availability does not take an economy to 10% growth rates. It's just one of the many bottlenecks but won't take you too far. There are many many other factors that make a nation competitive.
And by the way your existing grid can't even handle existing power capacities with blackouts in your biggest cities. So how is it going to handle all the extra power coming in from cpec projects.
And who will pay for it with all the circular debt floating around. People unwilling and unable to pay at current tariffs-who pays for all the new surplus power(assuming your grid won't collapse with all that power).
Now you will tell me I don't know anything about cpec - that half the world's trade will pass through gawadar (that option was always available through Karachi port). You will also tell me that Pakistan will suddenly become a manufacturing power house etc etc. I would say it's not even worth a decent argument. I would let you be happy with your assumptions and I (along with rest of world) be happy with our assumptions. We will find out soon enough.
Enjoy!