Is Indian Apple Store Hype Justified?

[Bilal9]

Is there doubt that it can be done in India? Does apple doubt the quality of the work force?

Perhaps they know there is a risk the factory could be trashed again. Not paying the workers usually ends badly.

What I don't get is why local Indian business majors don't come up with their own "honest" electronics brands and start from the bottom and then up the value chain.

The few cellphone and electronic hardware companies in India, starting from HCL PC's in the 1980's all the way to the Karbonn cellphones today have all had quality issues, support issues galore.

Even in appliance brands Indians won't buy from local brands (witness IFB)....

The mentality is - either we make Billions and then quit India or we don't go into it at all.

I wonder why local companies in India are not successful in this sector.

 

[RiazHaq]

Its (Apple's)iPhone price far exceeds the $269 Indian smartphone average.

By Peter Cohen

Apple’s 46% Revenue Pop In India Won’t Reverse Tech Giant’s Shrinking Top Line

Apple is scheduled to post quarterly earnings on May 4 and has signaled it expects total global revenue to decline.

www.forbes.com

Apple’s iPhone prices in India remain between 1.2 and six times higher than the average smartphone price in the country. For example, on April 25 its high end iPhone 14 Pro Max lists for $1,562 while one of its lowest-priced versions — the iPhone 5S 16GB goes for $308, according to Mysmartprice.

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How much is India slowing down? With 650 million smartphone users it is the second largest market behind China. Yet mobile Internet growth has stalled. As of last October, India had 790 million wireless broadband subscribers — a mere 1 million more than in 2021, according to the BBC. The number of new smartphones sold fell 10% to 151 million units after “scorching double digit growth” between 2016 and 2020.


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Price is the primary factor Indian consumers use to choose a smartphone. With rising prices, demand has fallen.

In 2022, the average smartphone price rose a whopping 47% to $269 — while 80% of smartphones in India sell for under $245, according to market researcher IDC. Until 2020, Indian consumers bought a new smartphone every 14 to 16 months. By 2023, that figure had risen to about 22 months, noted IDC.

With so many Indian citizens living in poverty and vendors failing to adapt to the requirements of the Indian market — e.g., most apps and services are in English which inhibits Internet adoption in rural India — smartphone makers must rethink their products, BBC reported.

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Apple’s revenue is declining. CEO Tim Cook hopes that after 25 years in the enormous Indian market, the tech giant can win enough of its revenues to accelerate its top line.

Apple’s market share has remained in the low single digits (now 3.7%) because its competitors deliver Indian customers a superior value proposition — better apps, longer battery life, and superior after-sales service at a much lower price.

Apple’s fortunes in India have taken a turn for the better. The company’s revenue in India soared nearly 50% to $6 billion, according to Bloomberg.

Yet Apple still faces considerable challenges in gaining a significant share of the Indian market. That’s because it has been trying to force-fit its U.S. iPhone business strategy to India, according to Apple in China and India, a case I co-authored in July 2019.

 

[FuturePAF]

What I don't get is why local Indian business majors don't come up with their own "honest" electronics brands and start from the bottom and then up the value chain.

The few cellphone and electronic hardware companies in India, starting from HCL PC's in the 1980's all the way to the Karbonn cellphones today have all had quality issues, support issues galore.

Even in appliance brands Indians won't buy from local brands (witness IFB)....

The mentality is - either we make Billions and then quit India or we don't go into it at all.

I wonder why local companies in India are not successful in this sector.

How many are engineers first business men second? Limited margin, long drawn out time building up to cutting edge technology and the best world class worker base at a competitive wage. Also there will be many years of putting in capital and fighting an uphill battle against established companies before there is hope your company will be competitive. that is even with a large market like India that can structure tariffs to protect domestic mega corporations for some time. The corporations can move fast enough to become and remain competitive.

China built itself on the export market, and a lot was physical products. Much of Indian exports are software based services and therefore a skill set built around that. With AI and other areas becoming more competitive, Indian workers maybe being priced out of the market; especially H1B visas (partially due to the tech recession and AI and a desire to redo hire these jobs). This cuts into the size of middle class that can afford these physical products india wants to make.

So in short, india is not moving fast enough.

Easier to do joint ventures with foreign brands. A ready market, known margins. It’s all predictable.

 

[CallSignMaverick]

Is there doubt that it can be done in India? Does apple doubt the quality of the work force?

Perhaps they know there is a risk the factory could be trashed again. Not paying the workers usually ends badly.

Wistron has already left India after selling their plant to Tata, like they sold their 2 plants in China in 2020.
In November 2022 Foxconn plant in Zhengzhou faced violence over pay issues.

China Covid: Angry protests at giant iPhone factory in Zhengzhou

Videos showed workers marching, with some confronted by people in hazmat suits and riot police.

www.bbc.com

It’s not rocket science, but margins will decrease or go negative if a certain volume is not produced per factory per year or there are disruptions to the production if the factory work is stopped for any reason.

The Taiwanese owners reputation maybe harmed with the Indian partner, but it’s India’s reputation that gets harmed due to the actions of the workers.

What legal recourse did the workers have to being paid in a timely manner?

China has seen these kind of violence at apple plants regularly, some even have suicide nets, so what reputation are we talking about?

 

[INS_Vikrant]

Opening of Apple stores in India is more of a symbolic move, showcasing growing importance of India in Apple's supply chain. Most of their sales would continue through Ecommerce portals like before.

 

[FuturePAF]

Wistron has already left India after selling their plant to Tata, like they sold their 2 plants in China in 2020.
In November 2022 Foxconn plant in Zhengzhou faced violence over pay issues.

China Covid: Angry protests at giant iPhone factory in Zhengzhou

Videos showed workers marching, with some confronted by people in hazmat suits and riot police.

www.bbc.com

China has seen these kind of violence at apple plants regularly, some even have suicide nets, so what reputation are we talking about?

Reputation of an entrenched producer nation with many other incentives versus a relatively new producer nation trying to attack investors.

But as Nathan said, india is riding the wave of diversification from China. So it’s not how good india is, it’s the political winds in India’s sail overcoming deficiencies for the time being.

 

[CallSignMaverick]

Reputation of an entrenched producer nation with many other incentives versus a relatively new producer nation trying to attack investors.

But as Nathan said, india is riding the wave of diversification from China. So it’s not how good india is, it’s the political winds in India’s sail overcoming deficiencies for the time being.

Lol no, its just a cope.
Wistron is the one who's reputation is bad, not entire Apple ecosystem in India. And its been 2 years since it happened. Fact is that Apple is doubling down on India and wants to expand its production in India with increasing revenue.

 

[FuturePAF]

Lol no, its just a cope.
Wistron is the one who's reputation is bad, not entire Apple ecosystem in India. And its been 2 years since it happened. Fact is that Apple is doubling down on India and wants to expand its production in India with increasing revenue.

It’s not cope. customers worry about corners being cut. Compare this to the Japanese customer of quality and customer service, even when they were lower on the development ladder. Paying for a culture of quality upfront keeps a nation competitive for the long term.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1663063939385815041

A simple comparison of the same product by the same company in two factories; one in Japan and one in China.

Steve Jobs said it himself about Japanese quality.

 

[nahtanbob]

How many are engineers first business men second? Limited margin, long drawn out time building up to cutting edge technology and the best world class worker base at a competitive wage. Also there will be many years of putting in capital and fighting an uphill battle against established companies before there is hope your company will be competitive. that is even with a large market like India that can structure tariffs to protect domestic mega corporations for some time. The corporations can move fast enough to become and remain competitive.

India is a large market to play this game. They need to wait until they get technologically savvy businessmen compared to the current crop

 

[Bilal9]

How many are engineers first business men second? Limited margin, long drawn out time building up to cutting edge technology and the best world class worker base at a competitive wage. Also there will be many years of putting in capital and fighting an uphill battle against established companies before there is hope your company will be competitive. that is even with a large market like India that can structure tariffs to protect domestic mega corporations for some time. The corporations can move fast enough to become and remain competitive.

China built itself on the export market, and a lot was physical products. Much of Indian exports are software based services and therefore a skill set built around that. With AI and other areas becoming more competitive, Indian workers maybe being priced out of the market; especially H1B visas (partially due to the tech recession and AI and a desire to redo hire these jobs). This cuts into the size of middle class that can afford these physical products india wants to make.

So in short, india is not moving fast enough.

Easier to do joint ventures with foreign brands. A ready market, known margins. It’s all predictable.

Very good points -all agreeable.

However one sector that is a growing one in a country like India where Indian brands could have made a dent - and easily so in my opinion (because of bulky items import issues), is white goods (appliances like Fridges, TV's and Aircons). Godrej and Boyce is one such company that has been making refrigerators since eons ago. and they stayed beholden to that one sector of Indian fridges which is the majority of the market (200 litres segment give or take a few litres). Their fridges in that segment just sells for price sensitivity (not many of the foreign appliance majors sell in that segment) so they could easily strengthen that sector by leaps and bounds and go into other larger size segments.

The problem Godrej has is convincing the Indian consumer that their products are good for any other segment other than the price sensitive one. They have been making appliances for the better part of 70 plus years.

They cannot mount a quality campaign to change the mind of the Indian consumer so that their larger 700 litre fridge they now offer, sells on quality. Or have a robust reputation for a solid after-sales support network - where in fact most other Indian brands suffer as well. Indian Internet sites are bristling with anger about this very issue, that local brands sell an item (Fridge, TV, Aircon, you name it) and then simply refuse to support it. This is what reputations are built on, and where brands like Samsung, LG and even Whirlpool excelled (and continue to excel) in India.

I know my knowledge about the Indian marketplace may be limited - but I see brands like Vision and Walton in Bangladesh who are manufacturing white goods locally for less than a decade and have completely defeated LG and Samsung out of the market, because of styling, quality and pricing (30% lower than global brands).

This appliance market (fridges especially) in Bangladesh - previously was a solid bastion (just like Pakistan) of foreign brands like Ariston, Ignis, GE, AEG, Bosch, Whirlpool, Kelvinator and Indesit. I am surprised Indian govt. won't provide tariff support for local manufacturers who manufacture in this segment, just like scores of others. It's one thing to liberalize the Indian market, quite another where foreign brands are coming in and repatriating value addition proceeds and profit like a free-for-all. I am sure top level bribery at customs and tariffs depts. is the reason.

Indians can see what the Chinese did on every market segment, yet being the largest country of the planet, they are of the "chalta hai" (let it continue) attitude and happy with foreign brands exploiting their market.

 

[Bilal9]

Opening of Apple stores in India is more of a symbolic move, showcasing growing importance of India in Apple's supply chain. Most of their sales would continue through Ecommerce portals like before.

Symbolic is right - I mean how many folks in India can afford iPhones at Rs. 70~90,000 a pop?

India is a large country and you have more rich of course, but these are astronomical prices for the Indian consumer.

Unless you import and use used iPhones, which many in India do.

 

[Bilal9]

Lol no, its just a cope.
Wistron is the one who's reputation is bad, not entire Apple ecosystem in India. And its been 2 years since it happened. Fact is that Apple is doubling down on India and wants to expand its production in India with increasing revenue.

Like that "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" guy said, "Champagne Wishes and Caviar Dreams".

Is that your own pipe-dream or is it based on anything solid that Apple itself pronounced publicly??

I will be happy if Apple "Doubles Down" on India but they will do that with their suppliers, not themselves.

The world and it's businesses operate on a different formula (aptitude to produce, logistics, infra etc.) than you dream about.

Apple sourcers are not stupid. Neither is Wistron. Wistron figured out they can't do business in India for the longer term. So they sold their operation to Tata and left. It remains to be seen how long Tata (a novice in this Apple supplier game) remains viable in this segment.

I tell you what - give your poor people jobs to make some simple toasters, beat China at it.

I'm afraid (knowing Indians who dream impractically about producing semi-conductors) it's hardly ever going to happen.

 

[CallSignMaverick]

Symbolic is right - I mean how many folks in India can afford iPhones at Rs. 70~90,000 a pop?

India is a large country and you have more rich of course, but these are astronomical prices for the Indian consumer.

Unless you import and use used iPhones, which many in India do.

It is an additional product everyone knows, as long as they are able to sell it, who cares?

Like that "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" guy said, "Champagne Wishes and Caviar Dreams".

Is that your own pipe-dream or is it based on anything solid that Apple itself pronounced publicly??

I will be happy if Apple "Doubles Down" on India but they will do that with their suppliers, not themselves.

The world and it's businesses operate on a different formula (aptitude to produce, logistics, infra etc.) than you dream about.

Apple sourcers are not stupid. Neither is Wistron. Wistron figured out they can't do business in India for the longer term. So they sold their operation to Tata and left. It remains to be seen how long Tata (a novice in this Apple supplier game) remains viable in this segment.

I tell you what - give your poor people jobs to make some simple toasters, beat China at it.

I'm afraid (knowing Indians who dream impractically about producing semi-conductors) it's hardly ever going to happen.

More iPhones to be made in India, Apple eyes 50 percent of global production

New report now suggests that Apple is eyeing to shift 50 percent of its global iPhone production to India by 2027.

www.google.com

Apple's India revenue jumped 50% YoY to $6 billion (twice the size of entire Bangladeshi electronics industry).

Apple’s India sales hit new high as company begins local retail push

The development comes at a time when Apple CEO Tim Cook arrives in India to inaugurate two local stores – one in Mumbai and the other in Delhi – as part of the iPhone maker’s big retail push in the country.

www.indiatoday.in

Wistron sold their 2 plants in China and left them as well, it's their own problem.

I tell you what - give your poor people jobs to make some simple toasters, beat China at it

Sorry, it doesn't sound great coming from the keyboard of someone with this flag...

 

[Bilal9]

More iPhones to be made in India, Apple eyes 50 percent of global production

New report now suggests that Apple is eyeing to shift 50 percent of its global iPhone production to India by 2027.

www.google.com

Yeah just as I thought - coming from Godi media which quotes a BS bogus SCMP link. Eight pass bhakts are going to buy iPhones and save Apple from bankruptcy.

Sorry, it doesn't sound great coming from the keyboard of someone with this flag...

You are one clueless fellow, so let me school you (like you low-self-esteem bhakts are so fond of saying).

The nation under that flag has GDP per capita Nominal higher and also has HDI and other developmental indices higher than India. Who can afford more iPhones? I think we can. Last I checked - they don't take Gobar cakes as payment for iPhones.

Since you seem to be a amateur wannabe techie (like most bhakts), the companies in that nation with that flag you deride, makes its own android tablets (several brands), Double-door 800 litre android-enabled refrigerators (several brands), Bangla voice-enabled 4k (now 8K too) smart TVs, makes first rate gaming enabled laptops locally, has expanded exports to EU (has bought EU refrigerator brand-names to take larger market share). Not to mention - boasts a selection of locally made small kitchen appliances (including toasters) that far exceeds anything made in India.

Why - because we believe in adding value locally, for either local consumption or for exports. So people can eat and buy clothes.

90% of all cellphones in Bangladesh are made locally, almost 85% of all appliances made locally as well. This - in a nation which even two decades ago had high enough standards to only use EU or Japanese made large appliances such as refrigerators.

In 1972, an older uncle of mine took a Bangladesh-made Vauxhall Viva to Kolkata and Indians were circling around to see it. They commented that they had never seen anything modern like it up to that time. It stood out like a jewel among all the Padmini Premiers and Ambys. You will not see us making boasts about these minor things like semi-educated bhakts.

Google first before making ignorant comments.

Besides more to the topic - they make cellphones from scratch level unlike what India does, which are slapped together from crap lowest-level Chinese parts. This is proven, open an Indian made cellphone, it is there for all to see. The propensity to hoodwink the Indian consumer is something so normal by Indian businesses, proud as you are of your Indian brands and so eager as you are to pull out your pom-poms for them.

How crap are India's cellphones (Karbonn etc.) ? Have a gander at the reviews at Mouthshut. Yeah bhakt pride for bhakt (cheater) products

Latest Reviews on KARBONN MOBILE PHONES - MouthShut.com

This type of business policy is why Indian companies have to be happy just selling in India itself or other countries in Africa. Familiar territory, familiar practices of cheatery, fraud and bribery. I did not want to say this things, but I had to burst your ignorant bhakt bubble.

Now go ahead and leave a "Ha-Ha" reaction to this post - that's a nice boy. Ignorant is as ignorant does.

• Just the same "chalta hai" crap once more instead of improving things.
• More things for propaganda and show than real progress.
• More garbage showcase projects like Chandrayan. Mangalayan rather than listening to an honorable Nobel winner like Amartya Sen.
• More building 300 feet staues than giving people real jobs.
• More BS things to get votes like hanging an akhand bharat BS painting in the new parliament.
• Just narrow-minded microscopic-hearted bhakt amateurs.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@nahtanbob: if Apple setup a factory in Bangladesh Bilal9 would be dancing naked in the street

And Hon Soul Spokesman sb would be giving kudos to SHW and her BAL government, which would cause bluesky Dada to go ballistic with rage.

Regards