Is India tearing itself apart?

[Vinod2070]

As I have repeatedly said, most Pakistanis don't have any affinity to the Indian civilization. They just want to snatch it from India and throw it in the dustbin.

The only civilization they care about is of their invaders and conquerors. The rest is all Jahiliyah. Even Pakistan's founders never talked about pre-Islamic civilizations. Its a new fad that has caught up among a minuscule number on the internet.

 

[donrahul]

And for the Ignorant, May i present the following link?

Battle of Rajasthan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Some of you trace your lineage from Mohd.Bin. Quasim. I guess he invaded Coastal Pakistan.. There is even a YOUTUBE Video/song for it and I have seen Pakistanis adoring it... Either you are from here or there.. There is no highway option..

Migrants are just as much a part of a nation as locals - go back enough in history and everyone is a migrant. This xenophobic attitude of 'can only be from here' only promotes hate.

If some Pakistanis can trace themselves back to Qasim, good for them.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As I have repeatedly said, most Pakistanis don't have any affinity to the Indian civilization. They just want to snatch it from India and throw it in the dustbin.

The only civilization they care about is of their invaders and conquerors. The rest is all Jahiliyah. Even Pakistan's founders never talked about pre-Islamic civilizations. Its a new fad that has caught up among a minuscule number on the internet.

Well this is a bit of a strawman again. Pakistanis don't believe in an 'Indian civilization', what we do have is the Indus civilizations, and that is what we claim. One does not lose their history or their claim to it just because a few people don't think about it or deny it. Its not some sort of artifact that you can just pick up and claim as your own because someone else threw it away.

Various government proposals under both Musharraf and the PPP have suggested that pre-Islamic history in the textbooks be given greater weightage. The recent depictions of the Indus Civilization on military equipment is indicative of how policy makers and Pakistanis are becoming more aware of their history. At issue is however the problem of reversing the policies of Zia, and prevailing over the now vocal and powerful conservative religious minority, which will take time.

So long as even a minority of Pakistanis claim this history, it is ours.

 

[p2prada]

Migrants are just as much a part of a nation as locals - go back enough in history and everyone is a migrant. This xenophobic attitude of 'can only be from here' only promotes hate.

If some Pakistanis can trace themselves back to Qasim, good for them.

Humans can trace themselves to AFRICA. But thats not the point.
The regions between india and persia have seen too many wars.

The persians invaded. the greeks invaded. then the muslims invaded. The region around the Indus has seen 2500 years of wars ever since the first greek and persian invasions. The invasions of chengiz khan and the huns were as catastrophic as the muslim invasions.

There is no guarantee that the original people of the Indus have actually survived. Maybe they were pushed back towards the gangetic plains or probably pushed towards extinction. Maybe a growing population pushed them away from the Indus in search of new pastures. A flood might have done the same too. Who knows?
Their lineage is lost, only their legacy survives. And thats what India is a part of.

 

[Vinod2070]

So long as even a minority of Pakistanis claim this history, it is ours.

No one ever denied that. It was a shared history as far as we are concerned.

The flip flop is all yours. You guys either want to discard it to the extent of disowning and desecrating it or you go to the other extreme of exclusively wanting to appropriate it!

But the reality is somewhere in between. Remember the level 3 we discussed earlier.

Its all about being comfortable with the identity one has and not feel compelled to assume an alien one.

 

[waraich66]

No doubt that indian has very old history ,they remain under always the rule of invaders
arians,greeks,mongols etc.

Hindu religion is basically off shot of jews.The histrory of hindu religion is not more than 2500BC old.
They both worship cow.they have same mentality financial system to suck the blood of poors.

Hindu population/society is divided religiouly into caste system.
That is the reason many million of hindu converted to islam and christianity and sikhism.

I Think no one want to live with hindu society and demanding always seperate independent land.

 

[UnitedPak]

The actual reason why the indus valley civilization is more indian than pakistani is because of the legacy. The same religious rules are practiced among the hindus even today. Just because of some minor differences in geography does not mean that our identity with the IVC is not ours.

Similarly, the many pakistani muslims like to associate themselves with the muslim invaders who are of Arab origins. Meaning pakistans legacy is more inclined towards the arabs than towards indian hindus. Geographically the IVC is pakistani. But, socially, religiously and spiritually IVC is truly indian.

Humans can trace themselves to AFRICA. But thats not the point.
The regions between india and persia have seen too many wars.

The persians invaded. the greeks invaded. then the muslims invaded. The region around the Indus has seen 2500 years of wars ever since the first greek and persian invasions. The invasions of chengiz khan and the huns were as catastrophic as the muslim invasions.

There is no guarantee that the original people of the Indus have actually survived. Maybe they were pushed back towards the gangetic plains or probably pushed towards extinction. Maybe a growing population pushed them away from the Indus in search of new pastures. A flood might have done the same too. Who knows?
Their lineage is lost, only their legacy survives. And thats what India is a part of.

Nothing is known about the religion, language or culture of the Indus Valley people. So relating them to Indian culture doesnt make sense.

The actual reason the Indus Valley is a Pakistani civilisation is because Pakistanis have been living in that valley for 1000s of years. Yes invaders have come and gone but Pakistanis have always been native to that land.
I cant help if you want to fabricate a load of absolute nonsense about Pakistanis being alien to their own lands. I see that you listed floods, wars and extinction in a desperate attempt to associate the Indus with India. Very convenient theories.

I dont see why Islam has been brought into this. The history of Pakistan belongs to Pakistanis regardless of what religion they followed. Indus Valley religion, Buddhism, Hinduism, whatever.
Being Muslims now doesnt give Indians the right to grab Pakistans non Islamic history. And the claims of random Muslims who have never heard of IVC dont void any of my arguments.


And since you love to quote Pakistani Founders, here is a quote from Jinnah:


"We are a nation with our distinctive culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, name and nomenclature, sense of values and proportion. Legal laws and moral codes, customs and calendar, history and traditions, aptitude and ambitions; in short, we have our own distinctive outlook on life and of life." -Quaid-e-Azam

 

[Vinod2070]

And Mr. Jinnah was a Gujarati which is in India.

His grandfather converted to Islam. He was obviously talking of the differences between Hindus and Muslims which became too much for him within a generation of the conversion.

He included Indian Muslims and Bangladeshis in that definition. Nothing to do with a region and the pre-Islamic history.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No one ever denied that. It was a shared history as far as we are concerned.

The flip flop is all yours. You guys either want to discard it to the extent of disowning and desecrating it or you go to the other extreme of exclusively wanting to appropriate it!

But the reality is somewhere in between. Remember the level 3 we discussed earlier.

Its all about being comfortable with the identity one has and not feel compelled to assume an alien one.

Its shared as much as that history overlapped.

Mehergarh, Harrappa and Moenjodaro do not exist in India, so that is not shared.

There is no flip flop - some people reject pre-Islamic history, others do not. Thats not a 'flip flop' its a difference of opinion between different sections of Pakistani society, and so long as there are those who claim it, its our history.

Remember that if we go with level 3, you have to admit that Indians have their own introspection to do and quit claiming everythign as 'Indian'.

Pakistanis are comfortable with whatever identity they have - whether it is linked to Islam, Qasim, the civilizations of ancient Pakistan, or an amalgamation of multiple influences. No one is forcing anyone over anything. You are the one insisting they are 'forcing' this or that, and insisting that your views on identity be accepted.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Humans can trace themselves to AFRICA. But thats not the point.
The regions between india and persia have seen too many wars.

The persians invaded. the greeks invaded. then the muslims invaded. The region around the Indus has seen 2500 years of wars ever since the first greek and persian invasions. The invasions of chengiz khan and the huns were as catastrophic as the muslim invasions.

Wars happened everywhere, lets not make it seem as if South Asia alone was stricken with this attribute of humans.

That humans can trace their lineage back to Africa is the point. We cannot be certain that the original migrants to South Asia are the ones populating it now, so why criticize others who migrated there? That has been the pattern of the human race, migration and evolution of customs and beliefs.

There is no guarantee that the original people of the Indus have actually survived. Maybe they were pushed back towards the gangetic plains or probably pushed towards extinction. Maybe a growing population pushed them away from the Indus in search of new pastures. A flood might have done the same too. Who knows?
Their lineage is lost, only their legacy survives. And thats what India is a part of.

Or the people mixed with the newer migrants and the gene pool just dissolved into this melting pot. Why should we just assume that they migrated away or went extinct?

The point is that this civilization existed largely within the boundaries of Pakistan, and the chances are that the blood f those ancients does continue to run in modern day Pakistanis. Their legacy is also our legacy, as is the legacy of the later arrivals to the region such as the Arabs and the Central Asians, and whatever history you have over yonder in India is your legacy.

 

[p2prada]

No doubt that indian has very old history ,they remain under always the rule of invaders
arians,greeks,mongols etc.

Hindu religion is basically off shot of jews.The histrory of hindu religion is not more than 2500BC old.
They both worship cow.they have same mentality financial system to suck the blood of poors.

Hindu population/society is divided religiouly into caste system.
That is the reason many million of hindu converted to islam and christianity and sikhism.

I Think no one want to live with hindu society and demanding always seperate independent land.

TROLL alert

 

[DarkStar]

And Mr. Jinnah was a Gujarati which is in India.

His grandfather converted to Islam. He was obviously talking of the differences between Hindus and Muslims which became too much for him within a generation of the conversion.

He included Indian Muslims and Bangladeshis in that definition. Nothing to do with a region and the pre-Islamic history.

The first excavations of the INdus Valley Civilisation were in the 1920s. Mostly in Harappa, which is why it was earlier given the name "Harappan" civlisation. The next set of excavations occured in the 1930's. Also due to the unspectacular nature of the findings (no big pyramids, no golden masks or mummies) there was not a great deal of public enthusiasm for or advertising of this discovery.

Due to the factors mentioned above, it would be difficult for people to take ownership of their recently discovered antiquitic history so quickly. There had never been any previous consciousness of any such civilisation, except for a few coins discovered in the late 19th century.

Much of the scholarship regarding the Indus Valley civilisation is post partition, so I would say maybe the people of the Jinnahian/Gandhian era did not realise the extent of these discoveries.

The text on the inscriptions has still not been deciphered after more than half a century of scholarship, and this dearth of historic detail is an impediment to understanding the culture of the Indus Valley Civilisation.

However, it must be noted that there was an unwritten agreement between Nehru and Jinnah that neither country would use the name "India", and by the time Jinnah realised his mistake he could do nothing more than acquiesce.

 

[p2prada]

Or the people mixed with the newer migrants and the gene pool just dissolved into this melting pot. Why should we just assume that they migrated away or went extinct?

It has been proved that the IVC was never a martial race. There is no proof of any existence of weapons or a military history for war purposes like egypt or mesopotamia. Thats the reason why the IVC decline was first blamed at an ARYAN invasion, which is again not the option. Migration and extinction is a more probable option since they had no means to protect themselves.

Egypt was at constant war with the hitities. Even mesopotamia had a decent war history. The same cannot be said of the IVC.

 

[p2prada]

The first excavations of the INdus Valley Civilisation were in the 1920s. Mostly in Harappa, which is why it was earlier given the name "Harappan" civlisation. The next set of excavations occured in the 1930's. Also due to the unspectacular nature of the findings (no big pyramids, no golden masks or mummies) there was not a great deal of public enthusiasm for or advertising of this discovery.

The text on the inscriptions has still not been deciphered after more than half a century of scholarship, and this dearth of historic detail is an impediment to understanding the culture of the Indus Valley Civilisation.

So, from the bold. The name of the city was discovered but the text is still not deciphered. Or, is Harappa a fictional name given to a city they dont know about.