Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[MilSpec]

If we assume that this request from India is a way to secure the ToT, the question is which competitors can produce a very high level of ToT (unless Indian changed their mind about it) and able to assume the risk of responsability OR to have the political weight to show them the finger of the middle.
Who can do that ? I would like to say: Russia but not for the good reason.

What makes you think dassault has any issues with ToT, as a matter of fact their ToT mechanism is defined by MoD and HAL. HAL has been involved in TOT for for last 35 years and they very well know how the AOP works for ToT of key technologies. As far as your contention is concerned, India is not trying to secure ToT, India is getting ToT for the amount of money that we are paying...

 

[surya kiran]

Russians has publicly stated that its on mass production
Take-off Magazine : As many as four PAK FA planes in flight trials
ILA 2012: Sukhoi T-50 AESA flight tests on schedule - IHS Jane's 360
Fourth Sukhoi T-50 prototype makes debut flight - IHS Jane's 360
operational fully in 2015

i say good enough as we will not get rafale before 2018

The radar is not yet deployed on a plane. Which means its not operational. The PakFA is not going to be in the IAF anywhere before 2025, currently earliest first delivery of the plane is 2022. By 2019, we will have prototypes. Not production. Post which there will be ironing out of issues, post which deliveries will start. That is a minimum of 10 year difference.

Again, your 'fine enough' has not gone through a simple parameter based approach. Which should have been the first part of any discussion. And this is what, I have been telling you again and again has been discussed to death in the MMRCA threads. None of the planes except the Typhoon and Rafale cleared the technical parameters as defined by the IAF. So the question about just adding an AESA to a Mig 29 is purely a case of not understanding the requirements.

 

[Anurag Rathore]

What makes you think dassault has any issues with ToT, as a matter of fact their ToT mechanism is defined by MoD and HAL. HAL has been involved in TOT for for last 35 years and they very well know how the AOP works for ToT of key technologies. As far as your contention is concerned, India is not trying to secure ToT, India is getting ToT for the amount of money that we are paying...

Don't u remember they made a statement that is hal capable for tot
do u think they will give us about there ew suite ,aesa and spectra which are best in class?

 

[MilSpec]

Don't u remember they made a statement that is hal capable for tot
do u think they will give us about there ew suite ,aesa and spectra which are best in class?

The statement was made to put MoD under pressure to offset high value subsystems to reliance, this is not new Snecma, Rafael, NPO maschintreya, Irkut, all have tried such posturing to move offsets in their favor, their contention was correct because most of the HAL state of the art manufacturing facilities are already assigned to MKI and wont be available for Rafale as of yet, so in a way Dassault Breguet were correct in thier contention. As far as your question, yes they will, they will have to or they will loose the order which will be a big enough setback for dassault to put them out of the combat a/c's, what DB is trying to angle at is to get a share in the pie of setting up the CNC complex in banglore division, to kick out the DMG machine tools from germany, that was the real angle that dassault and reliance were trying to get at.

 

[Anurag Rathore]

The statement was made to put MoD under pressure to offset high value subsystems to reliance, this is not new Snecma, Rafael, NPO maschintreya, Irkut, all have tried such posturing to move offsets in their favor, their contention was correct because most of the HAL state of the art manufacturing facilities are already assigned to MKI and wont be available for Rafale as of yet, so in a way Dassault Breguet were correct in thier contention. As far as your question, yes they will, they will have to or they will loose the order which will be a big enough setback for dassault to put them out of the combat a/c's, what DB is trying to angle at is to get a share in the pie of setting up the CNC complex in banglore division, to kick out the DMG machine tools from germany, that was the real angle that dassault and reliance were trying to get at.

i never saw rafale a crap but can we reduce its no. and the saved money be invested in r&d

 

[MilSpec]

i never saw rafale a crap but can we reduce its no. and the saved money be invested in r&d

So R&D money has to derived out of MMRCA , I wonder are there any other avenues to look for the R&D money... I dont think you understand much about rafale as a system, and the capabilities it brings to the table, unfortunately it doesn't seem like you are here to learn about such matters but to teach us. So I give up! rafale is the wrong choice and we should buy whatever you say!

thanks !

 

[Abingdonboy]

With the rupee going down everyday, how are they going to deal with the massive cash flow outside of India of 20 Billion dollars when the contract is signed?

3 points that everyone is seemingly missing-

1) the Rafale deal will be paid for in Euros- the Rupee-Euro exchange rate has remained pretty stable/flat for the past few years.


2) the cost of this deal will be spread out over a decade at least if not more so what's $1-2 BN a year to a country like India? $20+ BN won't be flowing out of India this year or whenever the deal is signed- at least not in one go.

3) the unit costs and the like were fixed at a point (2011 IIRC) whenever the sealed bids were submitted to the MoD. So even if 1 Euro was worth 10,000 rupees- the 2011 ER would be used not today's ER.

 

[Donatello]

3 points that everyone is seemingly missing-

1) the Rafale deal will be paid for in Euros- the Rupee-Euro exchange rate has remained pretty stable/flat for the past few years.


2) the cost of this deal will be spread out over a decade at least if not more so what's $1-2 BN a year to a country like India? $20+ BN won't be flowing out of India this year or whenever the deal is signed- at least not in one go.

3) the unit costs and the like were fixed at a point (2011 IIRC) whenever the sealed bids were submitted to the MoD. So even if 1 Euro was worth 10,000 rupees- the 2011 ER would be used not today's ER.

Two points to ponder over:

The rupee is not just falling against US Dollar but the GBP and the Euro as well. So in any case, India would have to dump rupee in the market to buy the Euro to pay the French. Dumping rupee will depreciate it's value because no one will be there to take it up by the same amount.

Also, please provide a source that the exchange rate was fixed back in 2011. It would seem pretty foolish of Dassault/French or any firm to do that knowing the currency you are dealing with is volatile and the deal has not even officially been signed. From my understanding when such big deals are confirmed, an advance payment is made and then more payments are made as the work is completed.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Two points to ponder over:

The rupee is not just falling against US Dollar but the GBP and the Euro as well. So in any case, India would have to dump rupee in the market to buy the Euro to pay the French. Dumping rupee will depreciate it's value because no one will be there to take it up by the same amount.

Also, please provide a source that the exchange rate was fixed back in 2011. It would seem pretty foolish of Dassault/French or any firm to do that knowing the currency you are dealing with is volatile and the deal has not even officially been signed. From my understanding when such big deals are confirmed, an advance payment is made and then more payments are made as the work is completed.

The advance payment is not going to be $20 BN though is it? Maybe 10% upfront? Again- not much for India.

 

[Donatello]

The advance payment is not going to be $20 BN though is it? Maybe 10% upfront? Again- not much for India.

That is not the question i asked, neither did i mention anywhere in my post that India would have to make a full payment. I clearly said that some advanced payment is made to start the work and as work progresses, more payment is made. This is standard procedure in the corporate world.

Anyway, only time will tell how the deal goes ahead. When is the expected signing of the deal?

 

[A G 1046]

officially india has reduced FGFA to 150
china already has over 600 J-10/J-11/SU-27 collection..
on top they will get J-20 ..J-31
are you sure you can keep up

well u can belevewhat you want my kind sir but indians have a habit of increasing the order any way we too have 350 4+ gen jets like SU 30 MKI , M2k , M29 and soon FGFA will start coming dont worry about us we can take care of chinese agression and your PAF aswell

owr economy is not based on IMF & US AID or as P.Hoodbhoy says toliye & chaddaren we can sustain it think about yourself

 

[帅的一匹]

The advance payment is not going to be $20 BN though is it? Maybe 10% upfront? Again- not much for India.

You seems more active than French persuading India buying Rafale. Since you are not India's citizen, your suggestion will only be an option.

 

[A G 1046]

My membership is new but works are old :-D




i doubt tht fiveyears for fgfa
nd lcawith aesa
ndwe shud get f18 over f16

well anurag dont worry dear russians are very competent + LCA will have ASEA within couple of years aswell and mark my words the handlers in pentagon are gonna fry the madam & pappu if they go for rafale trust me F 16 /F18 arent ruled owt

 

[帅的一匹]

Raffale is no match for su35 man
raffale is way inferior
infact 1 su 35= 2 raffales
i mean su35 is masterpiece

Then tell me why India gonna buy an inferior fighters like Rafale with higher price? corruption?

 

[A G 1046]

Then tell me why India gonna buy an inferior fighters like Rafale with higher price? corruption?

your right bro even we are stuck with the flying coffins and not going for LCA and keep shifting the goal post for it , look at the M2k deal for that much we could have bought 3 full squads of SU 35 and the wepons package man for that ammount