Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[Anurag Rathore]

Where? At least provide the source for your claim. You are now above 30 post counts.

In end September 2008, in response to a RTI, the Indian Navy admitted it placed the $1.5 billion Gorshkov order without visual inspection!

"As per the contract signed in January 2004, the original package was drawn up based on visual examination in as-is condition wherein it was found that the majority of the equipment, systems could be repaired while the electronic equipment could be renewed," Vice-Admiral S P S Cheema with the Integrated Headquarters, Ministry of Defence (Navy), wrote in his RTI response.

The Admiral went on to say "on opening up the equipment for a detailed examination and survey of the state of the hull structures, systems, cabling, etc, it emerged that these could not be repaired and hence would have to be replaced with new ones".

"These additionalities have resulted in the increase in project costs."


Read more: WORLD DEFENSE REVIEW: FULL ANALYSIS:INS VIKRAMADITYA

 

[sardar1987]

You are saying right india without inspecting the ship brought it they just had a look
but my point is why the delay Doesn't the price hike and delays harming us
if it was inducted 6 years back India would had strategic dominance

yar pls understand we had no money when the deal was signed.....we wanted a completely refit carrier for 900 million dollars and russia was fucked up,,,,,so what about decision by our govt??

so am i right????

the point is sevmash man............i can't seem to find source

 

[Anurag Rathore]

yar pls understand we had no money when the deal was signed.....we wanted a completely refit carrier for 900 million dollars and russia was fucked up,,,,,so what about decision by our govt??

so am i right????

I never favoured government but as you are saying russia can't get a clean chit

 

[sardar1987]

I never favoured government but as you are saying russia can't get a clean chit

def both are to blame but when u give contract to a shipyard expert in submarines only who screwed up??as usual our indian babus

 

[sardar1987]

this is on the site of sevmash btw

JSCo «PO «Sevmash» is the largest ship-building complex in Russia, the only shipyard of the country, the main task of which is atomic submarines building for Navy. The enterprise, occupying the area of more than 300 hectares, includes in its structure more than 100 subdivisions. More than 25,000 people work on the basic enterprise of Severodvinsk

JSCo «PO «Sevmash»

 

[sardar1987]

Guys pls come and discuss this thread

 

[Gessler]

AN F-35 At same cost would have given india an edge over china and pakistan both
with rafale they will neutralize ppakistan but china has ability to counter it

You seriously think F-35 will come for same price as Rafale??

 

[sardar1987]

You seriously think F-35 will come for same price as Rafale??

Yaar lets focus on matters at hand,,,pls read my earlier posts starting from post 5 and then give ur opinion,,,,i think we need to change priorities in this difficult economic situation

 

[Gessler]

Now i have seen the specs of rafale and all other comparable 4/4.5 generation aircrafts and i can challenge anyone here that dassault is a wrong choice.No doubt its a good craft certainly better than mki but is it worth 100-120 million a piece??Answer is totally no.We should have invested in zhuk -ae,ols after ordering mig 35 or have gone for su-35 simply because
1)it will soon get the niip no50 aesa of pakfa fame and rafale's aesa cannot compete with it
2)the engines are huge and could be upgraded with product 117 at later dastlyte,compare that to tiny tot rafale engines
3)the famed rafale infrared will be history as new ols-50 for pakfa will be based on qwip technology and would be comparable,if not better than rafale's
4)rafale's missiles like meteor are unmatched no doubt but are damn costly
5)we cannot,i think integrate brahmos on rafale
6)we will never get full tot,forget about it
7)the only thing special about rafale is passive detection spectra................but in my opinion we should have started joint venture with russians on these gizmos than splashing for an aircraft which by the time its delivered(if at all) around 2016-17 will be easily surpassed by pakfa(production starts 2016) and whrn pakfa gets product 30 engine it would be zillions of time better than rafale,,,,so why rafale?????just go for pakfa or fgfa

FGFA is a distant pipedream - Rafale is reality as of today. There's no telling when FGFA may actually
arrive, I don't think HAL will be successful in either delivering Tejas Mk-2 in time or ramping up
production of Su-30MKI.

Meanwhile, the squadron rate will continue to dip.

Secondly, no other jet in IAF offers as much A2G capability as Rafale.

And Rafale opens the doors for a lot of new French/European technology, like Meteor BVRAAM, SPECTRA
etc. We cannot be 100% dependent on Russia - because whatever they sell to us, they will see to China
as well, at a later date. Rafale will allow us to gain another line of technology different, and qualitatively
superior to the Russian one.

Look at China - they have not 1 but 2 stealth planes flying, and yet, development of 4.5 gen jets is a
priority - like J-10B, J-11B, etc. And word has it they may be looking for Su-35 as well. What does all
this tell you? It's still a very long time before the entire battlefield will be made up of 5th gen planes,
maybe only after 2030 or so, until them 4.5 gen planes will rule the battlefield, 5th gen will be the
cream of an air force, not the mainstay!

What do you think? Just because we have signed up for procuring a 5th gen plane in the distant future,
we should drop all development/procuring of 4.5 gen planes? What a perfect way to reduce squadron
strength to unimaginably low levels!

Just in case you wanna say : "we already have Su-30MKI, we don't need more 4.5 gen planes", I'll
tell you to look at the air forces of US and China - there are always 2 major 4.5 gen planes. F-16C and
F-15C for USAF, and J-10/J-11 variants for PLAAF. And Su-30MKI/Rafale will be for IAF.

Tejas Mk-2 - light 4.5 gen (80-100)
Rafale - medium 4.5 gen (~200)
Su-30MKI - heavy 4.5 gen (~300)
FGFA - medium/heavy 5th gen (~250)

 

[sardar1987]

FGFA is a distant pipedream - Rafale is reality as of today. There's no telling when FGFA may actually
arrive, I don't think HAL will be successful in either delivering Tejas Mk-2 in time or ramping up
production of Su-30MKI.

Meanwhile, the squadron rate will continue to dip.

Secondly, no other jet in IAF offers as much A2G capability as Rafale.

And Rafale opens the doors for a lot of new French/European technology, like Meteor BVRAAM, SPECTRA
etc. We cannot be 100% dependent on Russia - because whatever they sell to us, they will see to China
as well, at a later date. Rafale will allow us to gain another line of technology different, and qualitatively
superior to the Russian one.

Look at China - they have not 1 but 2 stealth planes flying, and yet, development of 4.5 gen jets is a
priority - like J-10B, J-11B, etc. And word has it they may be looking for Su-35 as well. What does all
this tell you? It's still a very long time before the entire battlefield will be made up of 5th gen planes,
maybe only after 2030 or so, until them 4.5 gen planes will rule the battlefield, 5th gen will be the
cream of an air force, not the mainstay!

What do you think? Just because we have signed up for procuring a 5th gen plane in the distant future,
we should drop all development/procuring of 4.5 gen planes? What a perfect way to reduce squadron
strength to unimaginably low levels!

Just in case you wanna say : "we already have Su-30MKI, we don't need more 4.5 gen planes", I'll
tell you to look at the air forces of US and China - there are always 2 major 4.5 gen planes. F-16C and
F-15C for USAF, and J-10/J-11 variants for PLAAF. And Su-30MKI/Rafale will be for IAF.

Tejas Mk-2 - light 4.5 gen (80-100)
Rafale - medium 4.5 gen (~200)
Su-30MKI - heavy 4.5 gen (~300)
FGFA - medium/heavy 5th gen (~250)

1)Why can't anyone understand that all the money put into pakfa will eventually trickle doen to su-27 series ie su 30 and su-35

2)Even if osf and spectra are better(which i think they are) the logistical simplicity of operating same type of aircraft with similar equipment is immense,no one can deny that

3)pakfa and fgfa are definitely gonna close the gap with western fighters(cannot match them though) and we are not concerned with west but china and pakistan

4)The economy simply cannot sustain this deal after this low growth and food security bill passage

5)even if passed we are very late and its wiser to get 100 initial pakfa units than rafale as we have atleast 20-25%(not 50) work in their production and it will help local industry immensly

MATE THIS IS MY LINE OF ARGUMENT

1)Why can't anyone understand that all the money put into pakfa will eventually trickle doen to su-27 series ie su 30 and su-35

2)Even if osf and spectra are better(which i think they are) the logistical simplicity of operating same type of aircraft with similar equipment is immense,no one can deny that

3)pakfa and fgfa are definitely gonna close the gap with western fighters(cannot match them though) and we are not concerned with west but china and pakistan

4)The economy simply cannot sustain this deal after this low growth and food security bill passage

5)even if passed we are very late and its wiser to get 100 initial pakfa units than rafale as we have atleast 20-25%(not 50) work in their production and it will help local industry immensly

MATE THIS IS MY LINE OF ARGUMENT

And do u think with rupee poised to dip 70 to dollar pretty soon we can even afford rafale??Thats my whole argument.After food security bill is implemented we would have no money left and we need to be innovative now and save costs

http://sardarspeaks.blogspot.in/2013/08/indian-doomfood-security-bill.html

 

[flamer84]

What is the word on the street in India guys? Is the Rafale deal going to be scrapped?

 

[sardar1987]

What is the word on the street in India guys? Is the Rafale deal going to be scrapped?

If i was the prime minister i would have never considered it in the first place...look upon my previous post and give ur opinion

 

[flamer84]

If i was the prime minister i would have never considered it in the first place...look upon my previous post and give ur opinion

I've read the whole thread but i am a huge Rafale fan i always thought it was a perfect plane for India,i would very much like for this deal to progress but i understand a financial storm may hit India and i know from personal experience that weapon spending it's one of the first to be cut.Then again,you guys live in a much more dangerous neighborhood than my country so i guess you'll have to find a balance.I don't think that more Suckhois is the answer,you need something different,better,but that's just my uneducated opinion.

 

[sardar1987]

I've read the whole thread but i am a huge Rafale fan i always thought it was a perfect plane for India,i would very much like for this deal to progress but i understand a financial storm may hit India and i know from personal experience that weapon spending it's one of the first to be cut.Then again,you guys live in a much more dangerous neighborhood then my country so i guess you'll have to find a balance.I don't think that more Suckhois is the answer,you need something different,better,but that's just my uneducated opinion.

thanks man

 

[Gessler]

1)Why can't anyone understand that all the money put into pakfa will eventually trickle doen to su-27 series ie su 30 and su-35

We are already upgrading MKIs to Super Sukhoi standards, by the time FGFA becomes mainstay of
IAF (that would happen a long time after 2030), it will be time to retire the MKIs altogether.

2)Even if osf and spectra are better(which i think they are) the logistical simplicity of operating same type of aircraft with similar equipment is immense,no one can deny that

We have already operated a mix of Russian and French aircraft to good effect back in 1999, we can do
that far more efficiently now.

Having different types of tech will also help to keep the enemy guessing.

3)pakfa and fgfa are definitely gonna close the gap with western fighters(cannot match them though) and we are not concerned with west but china and Pakistan

Yes, and for dealing with PAF, existing MKIs are enough. If the MKIs are upgraded to Super-MKI standard
then more so. And the same Super-MKI with Rafale is enough to have an edge over PLAAF for the foreseeable
future. When FGFA arrives, it will keep the PLAAF "5th gen" lot guessing.

4)The economy simply cannot sustain this deal after this low growth and food security bill passage

Then tell the govt. to stop making stupid decisions with the way things are working in the finance sector. If
they don't listen, kick them out of power and bring in a govt. that works better.

BTW, there is a great deal of exaggeration going on around India's "worsening economy".

5)even if passed we are very late and its wiser to get 100 initial pakfa units than rafale

PAK-FA in it's present form is not superior to Rafale in any respectable way, save for lesser RCS.

There is a lot of technology that needs to be developed for PAKFA to make it a true F-22 rival, and this
tech won't be fully developed and operational anytime before 2025. By then, if we don't induct
Rafale, the squadron strength will reach truly pitiful levels - emboldening our adventurous neighbours.

as we have atleast 20-25%(not 50) work in their production and it will help local industry immensely

Help industry in exactly what way? Electronics? Composites? Or some truly next-gen tech?? ToT regarding
such 5th gen stuff won't be ready to be transferred before 2020 in any way, and even then, what makes
you think Indian industry will be ready to absorb it?

Isn't it better to increase the private industries' work experience with aircraft-related systems by
involving them in Rafale production first? Any idea how many private-sector players are waiting to
gain big benefits via offsets and/or tech transfer/production contracts from Dassault/Thales/Snecma??

And do u think with rupee poised to dip 70 to dollar pretty soon we can even afford rafale??Thats my whole argument.After food security bill is implemented we would have no money left and we need to be innovative now and save costs

There is a better idea - give up Kashmir to Pak and AP to China and sit in our bathtubs reading magazines.

Believe me, the economic situation at present is certainly not the best of times, but it's so bad either
that we give up all major deals like this - you are simply exaggerating problems to make them look
colossal - do not be lured by the ideas of disaster theorists.