Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[sardar1987]

We are already upgrading MKIs to Super Sukhoi standards, by the time FGFA becomes mainstay of
IAF (that would happen a long time after 2030), it will be time to retire the MKIs altogether.



We have already operated a mix of Russian and French aircraft to good effect back in 1999, we can do
that far more efficiently now.

Having different types of tech will also help to keep the enemy guessing.



Yes, and for dealing with PAF, existing MKIs are enough. If the MKIs are upgraded to Super-MKI standard
then more so. And the same Super-MKI with Rafale is enough to have an edge over PLAAF for the foreseeable
future. When FGFA arrives, it will keep the PLAAF "5th gen" lot guessing.



Then tell the govt. to stop making stupid decisions with the way things are working in the finance sector. If
they don't listen, kick them out of power and bring in a govt. that works better.

BTW, there is a great deal of exaggeration going on around India's "worsening economy".



PAK-FA in it's present form is not superior to Rafale in any respectable way, save for lesser RCS.

There is a lot of technology that needs to be developed for PAKFA to make it a true F-22 rival, and this
tech won't be fully developed and operational anytime before 2025. By then, if we don't induct
Rafale, the squadron strength will reach truly pitiful levels - emboldening our adventurous neighbours.



Help industry in exactly what way? Electronics? Composites? Or some truly next-gen tech?? ToT regarding
such 5th gen stuff won't be ready to be transferred before 2020 in any way, and even then, what makes
you think Indian industry will be ready to absorb it?

Isn't it better to increase the private industries' work experience with aircraft-related systems by
involving them in Rafale production first? Any idea how many private-sector players are waiting to
gain big benefits via offsets and/or tech transfer/production contracts from Dassault/Thales/Snecma??



There is a better idea - give up Kashmir to Pak and AP to China and sit in our bathtubs reading magazines.

Believe me, the economic situation at present is certainly not the best of times, but it's so bad either
that we give up all major deals like this - you are simply exaggerating problems to make them look
colossal - do not be lured by the ideas of disaster theorists.

Man u don't get it.Even i was sold on rafale the other week but scenario will def change now.The deal will definitely not be signed before mid 2014 after elections and this food security bill is goona stay here for sure.So how do you guess govt raises the money with puny growth rate of 5-6 %(for at least a few years)

answer-It has happened in 90's and will happen again,defence cuts are round the corner and they are gonna make equisitions damn difficult

Regarding superiority of rafale,,,u can say whatever but the only thing rafale does better than pakfa is passive detection,,,nothing else even comes closer.

 

[ziaulislam]

as always india under estimates chinese J-10s and J-11s that are 3 times more in number
instead of countering it with fifth gen plateforms its relying on rafale..
a better option would have been increasing LCA,SU-30
and going for F-35 as memeber country

 

[Abingdonboy]

Man u don't get it.Even i was sold on rafale the other week but scenario will def change now.The deal will definitely not be signed before mid 2014 after elections and this food security bill is goona stay here for sure.So how do you guess govt raises the money with puny growth rate of 5-6 %(for at least a few years)

answer-It has happened in 90's and will happen again,defence cuts are round the corner and they are gonna make equisitions damn difficult

Regarding superiority of rafale,,,u can say whatever but the only thing rafale does better than pakfa is passive detection,,,nothing else even comes closer.

I don't think that's quite true bro. I think the Rafale deal is still more than likely to go through by the end of FY2013-14 along with the M777, Apache and Chinook deals. Certain other deals may be pushed back to the next financial year however.

as always india under estimates chinese J-10s and J-11s that are 3 times more in number
instead of countering it with fifth gen plateforms its relying on rafale..
a better option would have been increasing LCA,SU-30
and going for F-35 as memeber country

So the ONLY thing that can counter Chinese 4th gen fighters is Western 5th gen fighters?? Don't be absurd. The Rafale will be more than a match for these 4th gen designs and maybe even the Chinese 5th gens.

 

[sardar1987]

I don't think that's quite true bro. I think the Rafale deal is still more than likely to go through by the end of FY2013-14 along with the M777, Apache and Chinook deals. Certain other deals may be pushed back to the next financial year however.

Definitely no chance before elections.If yes then well and good.M777,Apache and chinook will go through for sure but con-gress(u feel me) is hell bent on screwing up on all the fronts

as always india under estimates chinese J-10s and J-11s that are 3 times more in number
instead of countering it with fifth gen plateforms its relying on rafale..
a better option would have been increasing LCA,SU-30
and going for F-35 as memeber country

u definitely have a valid point........numbers matter,,,,,better to have 200 mki than 126 rafale

 

[Abingdonboy]

Definitely no chance before elections.If yes then well and good.M777,Apache and chinook will go through for sure but con-gress(u feel me) is hell bent on screwing up on all the fronts

All we can do is wait and see I guess but all the signs coming out from all sides points to a signing this FY.

Fingers crossed!!

 

[sardar1987]

Govt has already started selling forex reserve dollars to shore up the rupee,pathetic attempt

 

[faithfulguy]

Now i have seen the specs of rafale and all other comparable 4/4.5 generation aircrafts and i can challenge anyone here that dassault is a wrong choice.No doubt its a good craft certainly better than mki but is it worth 100-120 million a piece??Answer is totally no.We should have invested in zhuk -ae,ols after ordering mig 35 or have gone for su-35 simply because
1)it will soon get the niip no50 aesa of pakfa fame and rafale's aesa cannot compete with it
2)the engines are huge and could be upgraded with product 117 at later dastlyte,compare that to tiny tot rafale engines
3)the famed rafale infrared will be history as new ols-50 for pakfa will be based on qwip technology and would be comparable,if not better than rafale's
4)rafale's missiles like meteor are unmatched no doubt but are damn costly
5)we cannot,i think integrate brahmos on rafale
6)we will never get full tot,forget about it
7)the only thing special about rafale is passive detection spectra................but in my opinion we should have started joint venture with russians on these gizmos than splashing for an aircraft which by the time its delivered(if at all) around 2016-17 will be easily surpassed by pakfa(production starts 2016) and whrn pakfa gets product 30 engine it would be zillions of time better than rafale,,,,so why rafale?????just go for pakfa or fgfa

If India cancel Rafale order now, no one would trust India when India wants to make a big military procurement. This would also pissed off French and could jeopardize India's submarine deals.

as always india under estimates chinese J-10s and J-11s that are 3 times more in number
instead of countering it with fifth gen plateforms its relying on rafale..
a better option would have been increasing LCA,SU-30
and going for F-35 as memeber country

India should get in line for F-35. Its possible that India can purchase F-35 off the shelf more quickly, even after a long wait, than wait for Russia develop PAKFA. Russia might run out of money. And India, after selling the dollar off, would have nothing else to sell off.

 

[Anurag Rathore]

FGFA is a distant pipedream - Rafale is reality as of today. There's no telling when FGFA may actually
arrive, I don't think HAL will be successful in either delivering Tejas Mk-2 in time or ramping up
production of Su-30MKI.

Meanwhile, the squadron rate will continue to dip.

Secondly, no other jet in IAF offers as much A2G capability as Rafale.

And Rafale opens the doors for a lot of new French/European technology, like Meteor BVRAAM, SPECTRA
etc. We cannot be 100% dependent on Russia - because whatever they sell to us, they will see to China
as well, at a later date. Rafale will allow us to gain another line of technology different, and qualitatively
superior to the Russian one.

Look at China - they have not 1 but 2 stealth planes flying, and yet, development of 4.5 gen jets is a
priority - like J-10B, J-11B, etc. And word has it they may be looking for Su-35 as well. What does all
this tell you? It's still a very long time before the entire battlefield will be made up of 5th gen planes,
maybe only after 2030 or so, until them 4.5 gen planes will rule the battlefield, 5th gen will be the
cream of an air force, not the mainstay!

What do you think? Just because we have signed up for procuring a 5th gen plane in the distant future,
we should drop all development/procuring of 4.5 gen planes? What a perfect way to reduce squadron
strength to unimaginably low levels!

Just in case you wanna say : "we already have Su-30MKI, we don't need more 4.5 gen planes", I'll
tell you to look at the air forces of US and China - there are always 2 major 4.5 gen planes. F-16C and
F-15C for USAF, and J-10/J-11 variants for PLAAF. And Su-30MKI/Rafale will be for IAF.

Tejas Mk-2 - light 4.5 gen (80-100)
Rafale - medium 4.5 gen (~200)
Su-30MKI - heavy 4.5 gen (~300)
FGFA - medium/heavy 5th gen (~250)

But it will take a decade for its induction

 

[Anurag Rathore]

I've read the whole thread but i am a huge Rafale fan i always thought it was a perfect plane for India,i would very much like for this deal to progress but i understand a financial storm may hit India and i know from personal experience that weapon spending it's one of the first to be cut.Then again,you guys live in a much more dangerous neighborhood than my country so i guess you'll have to find a balance.I don't think that more Suckhois is the answer,you need something different,better,but that's just my uneducated opinion.

If government need money they can take loans from Royal families idnt knw its legal or not but in this price hike of Ruppe atleast my family and other Royal families are happy because we play in Gold Not in ruppe and gold price is rising

 

[Anurag Rathore]

as always india under estimates chinese J-10s and J-11s that are 3 times more in number
instead of countering it with fifth gen plateforms its relying on rafale..
a better option would have been increasing LCA,SU-30
and going for F-35 as memeber country

F-35 a masterpiece

 

[A G 1046]

In this modern era of Fifth gen fighters,India aqquring huge no. of 4.5 gen fighters which are inferior to the modern trend of aircrafts.Is India making a Blunder By this much large no.It should reduce the orders of this costly aircraft and should use money for further programs?

Or raffale is Good Choice and India should Increase Its no. to 189!!

Peace!!

IT is a wrong choice and very late ...why

1. we have 200 MKIs and 70 are on there way and still opposition have no answer to them when they will get MLU they will be more leathel than MKI+Rafale with there over sized rodome carrying an ASEA with latest EW upgrade & certainli more power and a few RCS reduction tekhs so where is the scope for anything extra rafale can bring which super MKI cant

2. with couple of years LCA will start trickelling(that too in huge nos) and they will have israeli ASEA , avionicks & EV suite with DASH & more power so what new rafale brings to table than SPECTRA &More range

3. within 5 years FGFA will start trickling in aswell and that to as same price as rafale so where is the scope for rafale

it will be better for india to go for a combo of MIG35 /SU35 & F16 with asea & latest EV suite & bhramos

 

[帅的一匹]

TOT is not gonna happen especially buying non-Russian products, bear my words. Rafale is not gonna teach India anything, all you get is a fighter worth 100 million per. A correct phrase to describe it is: the meat on the choopping block. although Indian rupee has been depreciating to nearly half, French will relentlessly keep hike-up the price you have to pay. The more you buy, the quick you'll be dead. Invest more on indeginous production will help you in the final, the only thing Westerner goona do is to bleed you white in the end.

 

[帅的一匹]

You have been operating Mig-21 for half an centuray, can you produce it or upgrade it by yourself? You Indians should seriously ask yourself, what you have learned through those purchaed weapons? You might ask this same question 10 years later, what we have learned by Rafale business? Not to offend, but you guys just too opptimistic. I don't wanna hear some lame excuse as copyright, you just don't take the whole thing serious.

 

[帅的一匹]

Any person, any organization, any party to take any responsibility for perpetual delay? You lacks of sense of responsibility and urgency.

 

[senkakudefender]

Any person, any organization, any party to take any responsibility for perpetual delay? You lacks of sense of responsibility and urgency.

What the bleedin hell do you mean? SU 30 MKI we produce inhouse, export parts to Algeria,Vietnam and Malaysia, even Russia itself? Ask yourself why the WS 10 goes boom every test flight? Why it takes 2 mins to full afterburner thrust when modern ones take 8 -12 seconds max? Why you are running after a su 35 engine when your "Glorious, Brilliant,etc" comrade says WS 18 or so?

Introspection is the key, few countries have a will for it. That why every failure here is looked at with magnifying glasses, you blacken yours.