What's new

Is China the nation with the highest social mobility in the world?

I am not conflating the two, if that is what you thought.

I fully understand the conceptual and philosophical differences between centralized planning and setting long term goals, but I am associating them together because I also understand human nature well enough.

Just about all of us work for and inside organizations at one time or another. Organizations have hierarchies, needs, goals that are short and long terms, priorities, resources of all types, and worst of all -- conflicting desires. It would be great if everyone have the same emotional and psychological responses every time the leader expressed and set forth a goal for the organization, whether that goal is to create a microwave oven or a rubber ducky. But since not everyone are the same in terms of heights and weights which affects ergonomics, not the same in terms of intelligence and education which affects creativity and problem solving, not the same in terms personal lives which affects scheduling of shifts and meetings, etc...etc..., conflicts inevitably arises. So in order to meet the goal of designing the microwave oven and mass production of the same, rules are created and enforced to govern everyone's behaviors to reduce the quantity of conflicts, or mitigate their effects, or hopefully eliminate the environment that fosters conflicts.

If I want to work for Acme Microwave Oven Corporation (AMOC), a closed system, I have to accept certain conditions that will be in conflict with my personal desires and I have to place those conditions at a higher priority than my own desires. AMOC in turn will pay me for my services and compromises I made. As I work for AMOC, my position inside this organization places constraints on my freedom. Obviously, as a production worker, I cannot just simply walk into R/D and start working there. Does AMOC need to explicitly state that only scientists and engineers can work in the R/D labs ? Or does everyone have enough common sense to know their own limitations to stay out of the R/D labs unless he/she have legitimate business in there ?

AMOC can further reduce the possibilities of conflicts by clearly stating that if someone want to work in the R/D labs, certain time in service must be there, certain level of education must be verifiable, and the candidate must prove manual dexterity with hand tools. Departments like Finance, Facilities Maintenance, Production Control, or Executive have their own criteria. I may have a great idea on how to make a better microwave oven, but since there are rules in place to maintain order and discipline, those rules also limit freedoms of expression, which in my case is my great idea on how to make a better microwave oven. On the other hand, the scientists and engineers inside the R/D labs have much greater freedoms of expressions available to them.

The problem with human nature is that once we see how closed systems succeeded, we tend to believe, or rather delude ourselves, that we can control all variables and their effects regardless of whether the system is closed or not. The world have seen the disastrous experiment that was communism, when long term plans and goals meshed with the human desire for control. Just as we have seen how bad decisions ruined a car company versus good decisions profited another car company, we saw how bad decisions made inferior one country to another, all because the leaderships of companies or countries believed they can control everything and that they must control everything in order to meet those long term goals.

You said...


What are those incentives ?

AMOC pay me to work for the company to build microwave ovens. Is the US government going to pay me and to do what ? Propaganda ? Sorry, but that is not going to put food on my table. Take this argument to greater scope. Is the government going to set long term goals and engage captains of industries who then will direct their companies, whether to make microwave ovens or cars or cell phones, so that the country can meet certain economic milestones ? We have that -- fascism.

Under fascism, there can still be the creativity that is necessary in the 'creative destruction' theme that is the foundation of capitalism and free market system, but in lesser degree. Like it or not, China have most, if not all, the characteristics of fascism, and it is understandable that China need to adopt fascism in order lift herself out of the disaster that is communism.

Can the iPhone came from a fascist system ? Possibly, but not likely. Can the microwave oven came from a fascist system ? No, or far far less likely than the iPhone.

The iPhone is an iteration of a communication device, meaning the iPhone have a predecessor -- the telephone. On the other hand, the microwave oven is a standalone invention, meaning someone, be it a person or an organization, analyzed the behaviors of EM radiation, characters of materials such as metals and glass, and the labor intensiveness of cooking, and created the microwave oven.

Whatever the motivation, reasoning, and/or justifications for constraints, the more constraints there are upon the individuals inside the system, open or closed, the less likely the chance for a spark of creativity to be caught and developed. The Soviets beat the world in having the world's first satellite. That was a spark of creativity. What happened to that spark ? The American response may have been out of military paranoia, but it was the American people who developed that spark and made the satellite a much more useful communication device, starting with voice, then video, and to all the conveniences that we see today. Political oppression in the Soviet system did not merely constrained but effectively snuffed out sparks of creativity that could have exploited the satellite.

Modern day China is somewhere in the middle between the Soviet tightly controlled system and the US capitalist free market system. The captains of industries under past fascist Germany worked very closely with the German government to create and meet long term economic goals, just like how China is doing today. But if the Industrial Revolution is used as the starting point for when any country and its political and economic system can be measured against, the capitalist free market system is supreme in terms of allowing the creative spark to be captured and developed with complete disregard for whatever long term goals there might be from the government.


Yes...You seek the mythical 'benevolent dictatorship'.


What I meant was that only in an unconstrained system can someone like Clarke can come up with an idea like GPS, have it realized by someone else, and others copied it.

1. no one denies freedom for people to do what they want to do is important, and no one can know all the information to plan everything for everybody. I acknowledged that in my previous post.

2. no one denies the fact that too much centralized control can lead to disasters. in fact that's what leads China to reform in late 1970s and on.

3. about human nature, yes we need to be vigilant about protecting freedom, but don't forget there's another side of human nature -- lazy, selfish, short-sighted. my whole point is about finding the balance between the two extremes -- we need freedom and liberty, and we also need social constructs to keep us on track.

4. government (including US) uses plenty of incentives. most obvious one: tax. for example CA uses tax credits to promote high tech manufacturing. China does not tell private companies what to do, but uses similar incentives to encourage resources into certain areas.

5. going from centralized planning to fascism is a stretch. today's China is not technically fascism or dictatorship, but I guess you meant that there are still controls.

6. as for creativity and innovation, free market capitalism have their merits. but it's not directly relevant to my central thesis, which is that current US system is facing challenges and we human beings need a better system.

7. I'm not seeking benevolent dictatorship. I do think no one or group should have absolute power.

8. I think your main point is that free market capitalism is better than China's current system in terms of scientific and technological innovation. is that correct? I don't disagree with that thesis.

my main point is that the US system is facing problems, and I don't mean problems of innovation, but of making plans and taking actions for long-term good -- for example, dealing with issues like debt, climate, inequity, etc. and I believe that to actually make progress on these issues, the US (and probably the world) needs stronger leaders, which essentially means more "centralizing". and when it comes to centralized planning, I don't mean strict controls on everything, but provide the right incentives to guide people and resources towards good.

so our central theses are not conflicting.

my other point is I believe that there is a better system that combines the good parts of both US free market capitalism and China's strong leadership for development, though I don't know what that system will be exactly. I certainly don't mean not protecting people's freedom or taking free market out.

as for China itself, I do want to mention that its current system is far from perfect -- I personally call for more freedom and rule of law -- but in some way it is necessary for the time being, as you acknowledged. I don't think it'll stay in this stage forever, though -- there are good signs that it'll get better.
 
.
There are plenty of poor people who live in Boston and New York City. Having grown up in Boston myself I can assure you there are plenty of poor people there. The entrance exam to Boston Latin can be taken for entering the 7th grade or later for the 9th. It is open to all Boston residents (rich and poor alike). I can assure you the majority of kids who do get in are not a bunch of rich kids. Boston Latin is either the #1 school or the #2 school Harvard accepts students from.

You can then claim that well the kids who live in the poor areas of Boston have to go to local schools which are crappier than some of the schools in the better section of the city. I would agree that would slant the results...HOWEVER to make sure this doesn't happen students are bused from one end of the city to the other to even things out. So some kid who lives in the poor section can end up getting bused to a school in the good section.

Is this true for every school system in the country...I don't know.

Are people completely trapped in their socio-economic conditions...only if they let themselves be. You can claim hey how about Lexington High...it's in an expensive town..how can that be fair to poor people? Well Massachusetts has an answer to that too. Towns are required to have low income sections to give the less well off a chance to go to a decent school system.

Again...is this true for every school system in the country...I don't know.

Busing? I haven't even heard that exists recently in LA or where I live. In West Coast, you are stuck where you live. Maybe you are out of touch with 21st century realities.

To top it off, Massachussets is the state with the best education in the US. The average person living in Massachussets is already at a huge advantage compared to kids in Minnesota, Illinois or even California, not to mention states at the bottom like Mississippi or Alabama.
 
.
Busing? I haven't even heard that exists recently in LA or where I live. In West Coast, you are stuck where you live. Maybe you are out of touch with 21st century realities.

To top it off, Massachussets is the state with the best education in the US. The average person living in Massachussets is already at a huge advantage compared to kids in Minnesota, Illinois or even California, not to mention states at the bottom like Mississippi or Alabama.

LA used to have busing. But I think busing failed because as people became more wealthy they moved out of the densely packed housing of cities into the suburbs. There seems to be these shifts between city and non-city living. First it was the majority of people living in the countryside as farmers. When industrialization started; people moved to the cities for nice paying jobs. As people got wealthier they moved out of the city to bigger homes in more exclusive towns in the suburbs. White collar jobs started moving to huge brand new (and plenty of free parking) business parks in the suburbs.

So many cities are now left with a majority of less well off people in their school systems. Their budgets strained trying to keep the city running with less of a tax base due to both industry and people moving out. So their education has suffered.

State taxes are used to subsidize all the school systems. But if you have a non friendly tax code businesses will move elsewhere.
 
Last edited:
.
The government that is efficient at exercising power for ostensibly 'good' can also be efficient at exercising power for evil.

I often use the microwave oven as an example of how centralized planning can fail the people.

Can the microwave came from Cold War era Soviet Union or China ? No.

The technologies in the microwave oven are well known. EM at certain freqs and amplitude do have visible effects on organic tissues. All three countries, the US, the Soviet Union, and China knew this. All three countries knew how to generate EM radiation and focus said radiation. All three countries knew how to contain said radiation. The problem is that the POLITICAL nature of the Soviet Union and China restricted the dissemination the knowledge of the behaviors of EM radiation.

With the microwave oven, we have...

- Containment of EM radiation,
- Focus of EM radiation,
- A timing mechanism,

Not a single item was beyond the intellectual and manufacturing capabilities of both the Soviet Union and China.

Is the microwave oven a necessity to live ? Absolutely not. Mankind have used simple fire to boil water and to cook food for millenniums.

Further, when the idea for the microwave oven was proposed, there was an argument that people want to see their food. Is there a point in watching one's food under EM bombardment ? No, but people wanted that feature anyway. That mean a glass portal must be in place. But then, how does one deals with EM radiation leakage ? Answer...Install a metal wire mesh into the glass portal where the mesh holes are smaller than the physical wavelength of the EM radiation. Problems (plural) solved. No EM radiation leakage and people can see their food heating up. Were Soviet and Chinese scientists ignorant of these behaviors ? Absolutely not.

But the microwave oven came from the West in the long list of things that benefited mankind came from the West.

The more you control, the more you want to control. The Chinese communists were very good at executing their long term plans and goals, except not a single one of those plans really benefited the Chinese people and the rest of the world. See the microwave oven. It took the spectacular and ignoble collapse of the Soviet Union to force the Chinese communists to see the errors of their ways and adopt capitalism. The funny part is that the benefits and accomplishments of the capitalists societies were well known to the Chinese back then.

Arthur C Clarke actually had an altitude named after him...

Geostationary orbit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And we have GPS today. Then Beidou copied the execution.

So please do not tell us how awesome is the long term planning capability of the Chinese way of doing things when we have yet to see the benefits of that supposedly 'awesome' ability.
Canada has lots of ice land. Alaska has lots of ice land. Ice is not new. But only China has come out with the ice city. Turning ice land into the largest money making tourist attraction.

I called it the Harbin ice festival.
 
.
Canada has lots of ice land. Alaska has lots of ice land. Ice is not new. But only China has come out with the ice city. Turning ice land into the largest money making tourist attraction.

I called it the Harbin ice festival.
And this feat is the scientific and social equal of the microwave oven, the satellite, or the automobile ? :rolleyes:
 
.
And this feat is the scientific and social equal of the microwave oven, the satellite, or the automobile ? :rolleyes:
Satellite? Now wasnt that invented by the evil USSR? Opps there goes your entire argument you spend so long writing. What about the V1 cruise missiles and V2 rocket invented by the Nazis. Or the jet plane. The rocket propel grenade, AK47, the first Man in space. And all the chinese invention done during imperial china ?

Oh ...prefab is not new. But China take it to a new level

No country can grow so much without innovation.
 
Last edited:
.

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom