Is being Anti-Islam the same as Pro-Indian?

[zaxcolix]

You think I don't know of Rajiv's lustful embracing of the deobandis, I'm quite cognizant of that fact. It still does not excuse the actions of the likes of Advani and the RSS. Congress lived up to its reputation of communal politics through minority appeasement and BJP entered the arena in a big way by practicing communal politics though majority instigation. What Rajiv tried to do was:- 1) morally wrong and 2) (more importantly) against the spirit of the constitution of India but the BJP's rath yatra was not meant to correct this grievous act of Rajiv's. If the BJP really wanted to stop the Congress from doing what it had always done (dividing this nations) all they had to do was act as a strong opposition- ironically that was their job- sitting in the damn opposition- all they had to do was to enforce the writ and spirit of our constitution and the IPC (the same IPC which was used by the SC in giving its verdict). Rajiv didn't have the gumption to try and resist such a move by the BJP or any other opposition party- had he tried he would have found himself dumped on the streets. Instead the opposition kicked up a religious frenzy and went berserk.

Its a Naive reply.

BJP in those days did not exist ....in 1987 they had grand total of '2' TWO seats in the Lok Sabha. ........ Facts are staring at your in the face ...if you choose not to look at them, I cant help it.

BJP is a national party today because of the Ram Mandir ....its real politiks that represents the desire of the 'aam admi'.

 

[Dillinger]

Its a Naive reply.

BJP in those days did not exist ....in 1987 they had grand total of '2' TWO seats in the Lok Sabha. ........ Facts are staring at your in the face ...if you choose not to look at them, I cant help it.

BJP is a national party today because of the Ram Mandir ....its real politiks that represents the desire of the 'aam admi'.

So basically what you're telling me is that the BJP could not find any better way of asserting itself in national politics other than hollering for a temple? Real politiks trumps national interests hunh? Well in that case since Congress only engages in minority appeasement to maintain its stature as a national party and in the name of real politik- you should take a solemn vow to NEVER again criticize them on this- after all political survival and propagation must trump all other considerations. Had the BJP simply beaten Rajiv though parliamentary and constitutional means they would have gained a support base twice as large as they have today without the attached stigma of being considered a communal party- and today Congress would be running away with its tail tucked in- but alas! Stop making excuses- we make excuses- you and I both, so that our leaders can continue to make @#oots out us day in and day out

 

[zaxcolix]

So basically what you're telling me is that the BJP could not find any better way of asserting itself in national politics other than hollering for a temple? Real politiks trumps national interests hunh? Well in that case since Congress only engages in minority appeasement to maintain its stature as a national party and in the name of real politik- you should take a solemn vow to NEVER again criticize them on this- after all political survival and propagation must trump all other considerations. Had the BJP simply beaten Rajiv though parliamentary and constitutional means they would have gained a support base twice as large as they have today without the attached stigma of being considered a communal party- and today Congress would be running away with its tail tucked in- but alas! Stop making excuses- we make excuses- you and I both, so that our leaders can continue to make @#oots out us day in and day out

That 'hollering for a temple' came from the aam admi.

BJP did what any good political party should do ....forward that demand of the people and bring it to the parliament. I see nothing wrong with that. Congress tried to do the same thing...but BJP beat them to it.

I blame the congress because they have been playing communal politics since 1947 starting with partition of India and their communal approach has got progressiveness worse over the years. BJP was born as a evolutionary reaction to such political approach and then too ...it was born very late ..almost 50 years after congress started their communal politics.

To correct this situation I cannot start with the BJP...I have to first eliminate the source of this communal divide ..ie. the congress. Without a congress to polarize the people, evolution will dictate BJP to revert back to developmental politics. You can already see that happening (even though congress has not desisted from playing communal politics).

If BJP ignores Ram Mandir ...it will never have enough support among the aam admi to win enough seats in Lok Sabha, because the aam admi wants that Ram Mandir there. Congress cannot use that card for fear of loosing the Muslim/Christian vote bank. BJP is never going to get enough Muslim/Christian votes anyway.

Logical reasoning based on facts are not excuses. Excuses are reasons built on emotional responses....as to leaders making fools of us ....what is life without a bit of foolishness eh ?

 

[Bang Galore]

If BJP ignores Ram Mandir ...it will never have enough support among the aam admi to win enough seats in Lok Sabha, because the aam admi wants that Ram Mandir there.

There is not many takers for the Ram Mandir , like all artificially created emotional causes (I use artificial because pre-89, very few had heard of it), it has run its course. The economic reforms of the 90's, which bore fruits in the first decade of this century has simply transferred all attention to "Lakshmi" from "Ram". It is why the BJP has been convincingly removed from any significant position in U.P. politics. Caste has simply overwhelmed the grand Hindu coalition that the BJP had managed for a few years in the 90's. The country has changed, not realising that would be the greatest folly. There is limited interest outside a core constituency for the Mandir issue, it simply has no gas in it anymore. The "Mandal" & the economic reforms have seen to it.

 

[zaxcolix]

There is not many takers for the Ram Mandir , like all artificially created emotional causes (I use artificial because pre-89, very few had heard of it), it has run its course. The economic reforms of the 90's, which bore fruits in the first decade of this century has simply transferred all attention to "Lakshmi" from "Ram". It is why the BJP has been convincingly removed from any significant position in U.P. politics. Caste has simply overwhelmed the grand Hindu coalition that the BJP had managed for a few years in the 90's. The country has changed, not realising that would be the greatest folly. There is limited interest outside a core constituency for the Mandir issue, it simply has no gas in it anymore. The "Mandal" & the economic reforms have seen to it.

Its interesting your brought in UP and 'Mandal'......and that is precisely the reason why BJP needs Ram Mandir.

Development is sufficient for BJP in Gujarat ....but development and 'anti-corruption' are not really vote catchers in the rest of India. Congress knows this....BJP knows it too.

UP has 80 seats ...and if BJP wants any chance to regain UP 'Ram Mandir' is the only way to go. Its the only issue that can make both the lower caste and upper caste vote for BJP (..in short consolidate hindu votes). Corruption and Development are non issues in UP

The real trick for the BJP is to keeping keep the blow back of Ram Mandir politics to other states that is still influenced by congress 'secularism' i.e a divided hindu society and polarized religious minority.

 

[KS]

There is not many takers for the Ram Mandir , like all artificially created emotional causes (I use artificial because pre-89, very few had heard of it), it has run its course. .

Not entirely true..

To us in the south, who dont worship Lord Ram in a big way, it may not have been a big issue before 89 or whatever date, but for the people in North and West who faced the brunt of the Islamic invasions it was always an emotional issue..

And that by any stretch is not artificial..

+ I will use caution before saying the ram mandir has run its course..now issues are calm because the matter is in court..let the judgement come, then only we can decide if it has really run its course.

 

[bronxbull]

There is not many takers for the Ram Mandir , like all artificially created emotional causes (I use artificial because pre-89, very few had heard of it), it has run its course. The economic reforms of the 90's, which bore fruits in the first decade of this century has simply transferred all attention to "Lakshmi" from "Ram". It is why the BJP has been convincingly removed from any significant position in U.P. politics. Caste has simply overwhelmed the grand Hindu coalition that the BJP had managed for a few years in the 90's. The country has changed, not realising that would be the greatest folly. There is limited interest outside a core constituency for the Mandir issue, it simply has no gas in it anymore. The "Mandal" & the economic reforms have seen to it.

Did you do this survey in some upmarket Bar in Bangalore?

BJP still gets enough votes in UP and UP is a very fractured state,people vote based on so many reasons and Most people of India still want the Ram Mandir there.

Life is multi dimensional,you cant say i ll focus this first and that later,

One does fight on every front he wants to.

caste didn't overwhelm anything, lot of numbers did and coalition did.

Mandir issue is still an issue and all other issues are still valid issues,

I dont know what you do,perhaps you read Times of India and believe all is rosy.

 

[Android]

Not entirely true..

To us in the south, who dont worship Lord Ram in a big way, it may not have been a big issue before 89

is it true that south Indians worship Raavan

 

[bronxbull]

There is a group in TN called DK/DMK,who in my opinion are possibly the most moronic and reactionary bunch,

They ll go to any extent to do the opposite of convention just for the heck of it.

Mostly christian missionary funding and to a good extent upper caste apathy.

 

[Bang Galore]

Not entirely true..

To us in the south, who dont worship Lord Ram in a big way, it may not have been a big issue before 89 or whatever date, but for the people in North and West who faced the brunt of the Islamic invasions it was always an emotional issue..

And that by any stretch is not artificial..

This is not about Ram, it's about the Babri masjid structure. Till Rajiv Gandhi, ill advised by Arun Nehru decided to play the Hindu card to lessen the blowback from the Shah Bano case, there were not many who had heard of this issue. It was by no means completely unknown but it was to most people, even in North India. The last time before 1989 that it had really caught anyone's attention was a half century before.

 

[Bang Galore]

Its interesting your brought in UP and 'Mandal'......and that is precisely the reason why BJP needs Ram Mandir.

Development is sufficient for BJP in Gujarat ....but development and 'anti-corruption' are not really vote catchers in the rest of India. Congress knows this....BJP knows it too.

UP has 80 seats ...and if BJP wants any chance to regain UP 'Ram Mandir' is the only way to go. Its the only issue that can make both the lower caste and upper caste vote for BJP (..in short consolidate hindu votes). Corruption and Development are non issues in UP

The real trick for the BJP is to keeping keep the blow back of Ram Mandir politics to other states that is still influenced by congress 'secularism' i.e a divided hindu society and polarized religious minority.

I'm very aware of what the BJP wishes were the case but as I said, my contention is that the Ram Mandir issue has run out of steam and that the clock cannot be turned back. As long as the Babri Mosque/structure was standing, it still had some resonance but once that was gone, it was always going to be difficult. There is also a fatigue factor that has set in . The law of diminishing returns is not easily overcome & every election result 1999 onwards has made that clear. The BJP has been trying but has made no headway, the Ram Janmabhoomi pitch does not resonate now as it once did. India has moved on from the early 1990's and much as some might wish differently, Narendra Modi's development plank may be a far better bet than this. I suspect you know this as well as I do whatever your political inclination.

Btw what you said about U.P. was once said about Bihar, Laloo gambled his future on it. Even he now has had to change his tune towards development (though what he can offer is moot). There is no reason to believe that U.P. will always be as it has been. Just like the Mandir based politics before it, caste calculated politics too will fall prey to the same logic. The only constant, as we all know, is change.

 

[asad71]

Which is what I ask of Indian Muslim history..
I use the term Indian Muslim inclusively.. as I mean Muslims of the Sub-continent..
Should they always carry the stigma of being regarded as Invaders as is held by many a esteemed members here?

Are none of the great progresses in architecture, music, literature.. even the relative peacefulness of the Dehli Sultanates
Should Sher Shah Suri's achievements be disregarded as alien.. and not part of India or its peoples?
Sure there were brutal rulers within Muslims as well.. but was it just Muslims who were always the brutal rulers??

After all.. how long does it take for a peoples to be considered a part of the land?? If the theory presented by many esteemed members in their anti-Islam tirade is to be taken at face value.. then no Americans should dare call themselves American.. and should be disowned.. or rather the evolution of human settlements should be branded as shirk as they all left their lands to settle and/or rule elsewhere.



I cant agree entirely with your post.. but I do not disagree either.. I do feel there are certain sections of India's ruling class that believe in that concept(just as many Muslims may believe in the return of Muslim rule)..
To what extent does that influence long term(long term is 20-30 years) government social and education policies?
To what extend does it influence the general population?

1. For millenniums the Brahamns, who are only a handful in number, have ruled supreme over the Hindu multitudes like demi-gods using the mischief of cast system. Establishment of Hindutva / Ram Rajya / Akhand Bharat / Maha Bharat will not only strengthen the Brahamonic stranglehold but enhance their suzerainty. Happily the educated in South India are already awake to this enigma in the Hindu society.

2. A Hindu characteristic to be noted here is his immense patience which he practices with calm and discipline. The onlooker / adversary will never know looking at his face as to what he is feeling or planning. Al the time he maintains the course set for him by the Brahman. That is how Hinduism engulfed Buddhism over a period of centuries. Jains and Brahmos stand overpowered. In spite of attacks here and there, Christianity is not a major target. Christians are also powerful with control over the media, healthcare and education sectors. Muslims are the main target for ethnic cleansing. Long term in context of the Hindu is millenniums or centuries.

 

[bronxbull]

I'm very aware of what the BJP wishes were the case but as I said, my contention is that the Ram Mandir issue has run out of steam and that the clock cannot be turned back. As long as the Babri Mosque/structure was standing, it still had some resonance but once that was gone, it was always going to be difficult. There is also a fatigue factor that has set in . The law of diminishing returns is not easily overcome & every election result 1999 onwards has made that clear. The BJP has been trying but has made no headway, the Ram Janmabhoomi pitch does not resonate now as it once did. India has moved on from the early 1990's and much as some might wish differently, Narendra Modi's development plank may be a far better bet than this. I suspect you know this as well as I do whatever your political inclination.

Btw what you said about U.P. was once said about Bihar, Laloo gambled his future on it. Even he now has had to change his tune towards development (though what he can offer is moot). There is no reason to believe that U.P. will always be as it has been. Just like the Mandir based politics before it, caste calculated politics too will fall prey to the same logic. The only constant, as we all know, is change.

Next is Varanasi.

1. For millenniums the Brahamns, who are only a handful in number, have ruled supreme over the Hindu multitudes like demi-gods using the mischief of cast system. Establishment of Hindutva / Ram Rajya / Akhand Bharat / Maha Bharat will not only strengthen the Brahamonic stranglehold but enhance their suzerainty. Happily the educated in South India are already awake to this enigma in the Hindu society.

2. A Hindu characteristic to be noted here is his immense patience which he practices with calm and discipline. The onlooker / adversary will never know looking at his face as to what he is feeling or planning. Al the time he maintains the course set for him by the Brahman. That is how Hinduism engulfed Buddhism over a period of centuries. Jains and Brahmos stand overpowered. In spite of attacks here and there, Christianity is not a major target. Christians are also powerful with control over the media, healthcare and education sectors. Muslims are the main target for ethnic cleansing. Long term in context of the Hindu is millenniums or centuries.

South Indians are as Hindu as anyone else and you ll soon see it manifesting itself.

 

[peacekeeper]

@KS
You are talking about Haj subsidies given to muslims, but what about the government involvement in Kumbh Melas, its entire administrative machinery is involved in it, wouldn't it be favoring a particular religion.

 

[zaxcolix]

I'm very aware of what the BJP wishes were the case but as I said, my contention is that the Ram Mandir issue has run out of steam and that the clock cannot be turned back. As long as the Babri Mosque/structure was standing, it still had some resonance but once that was gone, it was always going to be difficult. There is also a fatigue factor that has set in . The law of diminishing returns is not easily overcome & every election result 1999 onwards has made that clear. The BJP has been trying but has made no headway, the Ram Janmabhoomi pitch does not resonate now as it once did. India has moved on from the early 1990's and much as some might wish differently, Narendra Modi's development plank may be a far better bet than this. I suspect you know this as well as I do whatever your political inclination.

Btw what you said about U.P. was once said about Bihar, Laloo gambled his future on it. Even he now has had to change his tune towards development (though what he can offer is moot). There is no reason to believe that U.P. will always be as it has been. Just like the Mandir based politics before it, caste calculated politics too will fall prey to the same logic. The only constant, as we all know, is change.

Actually BJP under Vajpayee abandoned the Ram Mandir issue after 1998. He rode the wave and abandoned it along with the hopes and aspirations of all those Hindus who supported BJP on this issue. It is to be remembered that BJP grew from a 2 member party to 182 seats purely on the Nationalism and Ram Mandir issue ......as there was no other issue in the election then.

@ 60% (59.99%) voting and BJP (Not NDA) getting 37% of the vote it translates to 222 million Indians who were asking for the Ram Mandir in Ayodhya. It is difficult to imagine that these 222 million Indians (and now also their children) would have forgotten about the issue, especially after the Supreme Courts admission that there was a Temple in the disputed territory. It is an emotive issue that is waiting to be raised.

You are mistaken when you say BJP has tried to rake Ram Janmabhoomi issue earlier.......BJP under Advani foolishly believed they had enough credibility among Indian voters to win an election under anti-incumbency vote. They tried to stay put Ram Janmabhoomi behind them and project themselves as a modern party in the foolish belief that 'secular' votes would come to them. They even sidelined Narendra Modi as he was not seen as 'secular' enough.

Congress played dirty by their Loan waiver (which has resulted in today's HUGE Deficit) and this and and next Congress is going to use Direct Cash Transfer to bribe their way back to Lok Sabha.

BJP has nothing to fight Direct Cash Transfer (....people are going to see this as congress paying them off) except rake up an emotive issue that has the potential to create a divide again in peoples mind.

Bihar had hit rock bottom under laloo and they had nowhere else to go but up.....add to that Nitish offered free cycles to kids and Women and extremely backward castes were given 50% reservation in electorals in 2005. Bihar voted for 'NOT LALU' rather than 'Pro Nitish'.