Is being Anti-Islam the same as Pro-Indian?

[doppelganger]

Bhai KS we are saying all the same thing yet talking past each other.

Two wrongs, do not make a right. Trying to justify one wrong because another has been done is not the way.

Tackle both wrongs separately.

 

[KS]

I find this statement wrong. I believe "appeasement" (using the term of KS and gang) is necessary to win over a Hindu or Muslim population in a country that is overwhelmingly Muslim or Hindu. There should be extra funds allocated to said communities and government should finance their yatra or pilgrimage. I say this as a solid secularist.

In the subcontinent religion cannot be "deleted"... it will exist. Instead we should have a secular cconstitution and still help minority religious groups move to a better standard.

Every individual is a minority in his own right.

I, as an individual, cannot allow a collective identity to be used as a reason for discriminating against me.

 

[Bang Galore]

T
p.s. I dont think the money given is far more as the news link states that in 2002 itself the annual collection from temples was about 80 crore..On a conservative 10-11% hike we can assume the revenue now would be annually 90cr and that would give the Govt about 450 crore over a period of 5 years.

The amount being spent on temple upkeep itself is now much more. The figures won't match.

Also:

Under the amended Act, the government has formed a Rajya Dharmik Parishat at the State-level and Zilla Dharmik Parishats at the district level. “These bodies will appoint managing committees for different temples”

The nine-member body has eight nominated members and the Muzrai Commissioner is the member-secretary. At the district level, the Deputy Commissioner is the chairman of the parishat.

 

[Dillinger]

self delete

 

[doppelganger]

I find this statement wrong. I believe "appeasement" (using the term of KS and gang) is necessary to win over a Hindu or Muslim population in a country that is overwhelmingly Muslim or Hindu. There should be extra funds allocated to said communities and government should finance their yatra or pilgrimage. I say this as a solid secularist.

In the subcontinent religion cannot be "deleted"... it will exist. Instead we should have a secular cconstitution and still help minority religious groups move to a better standard. Not only that-finance their temples or mosques as well.

The best way to win over any section of society is to ensure equal treatment.

Anything else breeds resentment and backlash. Besides being anti constitutional.

You suggestions for constitutional amendments for our constitution are duly noted.

 

[bronxbull]

You're not completely accurate, Manusmriti may have been just one such religious texts but its the one that stuck around. And it has found its roots even among today's Hindus. Only a blind man would claim that we do not suffer from caste-ism even today. Any corrupt cretin like mayawati or lalu can become the CM based on the caste card (playing on lower castes and higher castes both), ranvir sena operates like a quasi taliban force killing lower caste people, brahmins go and molest dalit women in UP, the naxals find a ready source to exploit in the caste enforced hardships faced by many in the tribal areas. See, a member pointed out earlier that a religion cannot be judged by what it says or what it preaches..the more important criteria of judgment is how it is practiced and while in many cases Hindus are relatively better at following their religion peacefully- we still have groups like Abhinav Bharat which feel the need to pick up arms in some misguided attempt at "safeguarding Hinduism".

Bang Alore sir is correct in stating that NO religion is secular. The meaning of secular is as follows: Denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis, AND NOT our commonly held idea that to be secular means to be respectful towards all religion or to follow a strategy of appeasement. By that, correct, definition of secularism NO religion can ever be secular and thus neither is Hinduism.

Ranvir Sena is protecting Bhumihar lands and people from Naxal attacks because the government fails to protect them,not one and the same.

 

[KS]

Bhai KS we are saying all the same thing yet talking past each other.

Two wrongs, do not make a right. Trying to justify one wrong because another has been done is not the way.

Tackle both wrongs separately.

True..

The comedy with Indian political situation is the secular parties are not truly secular and the right wing (read favoring Hindus) party is not really right wing.

Hence we Indians instead of choosing the best party are forced to choose the least evil party.

 

[Dillinger]

Reasons for the infamy of of Manusmriti is complex........but devolution of hindu society and school of thought due to conditions brought about by a near continuous barbaric invasion for more than a 1000 years would be one of the prime reasons.

Hindus have suffered all kinds of degradation, humiliation, deprivation, ignomity in our long history ....caste is only one in the long list of sufferings. Consolation being its the only one that we brought among ourselves.

Dynamics of current day caste politics (from reservation to molestation) is outside the scope of this discussing but you are free to open a new thread for the same.

Unfortunately Bang Alore is not correct in stating all religions are non secular and you are wrong in thinking he is correct. Hindu class system itself was a exercise in separating religion from state. There is nothing in Hinduims that encouraged Religious figures to rule of masses. That was the exclusively for the Kshatriyas. That is a CLEAR separation of RELIGION and STATE....in short ...secularism.

Please do not use your ignorance of Hinduism to spread falsities.

It is how it is practiced that really matters, that is my opinion at least. The BJP and the RSS hardly practice secular politics and they lay a claim to the political loyalty of a large part of the HIndu population, the only silver lining is that they also do not espouse appeasement politics and minority vote bank politics (unlike our grand old party which cannot rest without creating some new division). But shenanigans like the rath yatra being used to garner political support can hardly be considered secular. As a majority population, the Hindus need to completely eschew any religion based form of political assertion.

Tell me something, all those degradation or deprivations the Hindus faced- can they harm us anymore, can they be revisited upon us anymore? The answer is a clear NO! No Babur can conquer and enslave our nation anymore neither any British viceroy rule and exploit us. But caste-ism still plagues us even today, it still harms us even though no Bin Quasim can attack us today! We must accept that caste-ism is a evil that still besets us and that for many people it is justified by a particular religious text in conjunction with its prevalence for centuries. We cannot be shy when it comes to the appraisal of our own shortcomings.

AND the whole idea of Kshatriya should rule might satisfy your idea of a separation of church and state but it did nothing to remove the caste system- in fact it only propagated it further.

 

[KS]

Also:

I'm not actually concerned about who administers what, but ultimately where the revenue goes. Whether to a temple trust which is completely autonomous to spend money as it seems fit or to the Govt.

If its to the Govt then that is unfair.

On the positive side I heard the BJP govt is amending the muzrai act or whatever it is to release more temples out of it.

 

[bronxbull]

I still have to come to an understanding of how these RSS types believe, Hindus, the majority have suffered in a pre-dominantly Hindu nation.

Quite simple,

The government tries to control the temples and it is not their business.

 

[Dillinger]

Ranvir Sena is protecting Bhumihar lands and people from Naxal attacks because the government fails to protect them,not one and the same.

Sir, where are you from? I'm from Bihar, half my extended family had the curious infamy of being actively associated with the ranvir sena. I've spent half my life listening to the praises to bhumiyar hood, how we are gods gift to this world- being bhumiyar and all. They do absolutely nothing to stop naxals- instead in the name of fighting maoists they collude with local gangs and criminals and extort money. They then use that money to buy political favors and fill up posts with their reps wherever possible.

 

[Bang Galore]

I'm not actually concerned about who administers what, but ultimately where the revenue goes. Whether to a temple trust which is completely autonomous to spend money as it seems fit or to the Govt.

If its to the Govt then that is unfair.

More funny stuff:

Karnataka's Rs17 crore prayer for rain!

Karnataka muzrai minister Kota Srinivas Poojari is a worried man. The monsoon sky – alternating between grey and blue, but shedding very little rain – has got him worried.

But while most of us can do nothing except wait for the rain, the minister, it seems, decided that he has had enough. Poojari is not going to sit idle and twiddle his thumbs any longer. The minister has decided to intervene. How? He has decided to placate rain God Varuna.

In an announcement that was bizarre and baffling, the minister on Friday ordered special pujas to be conducted in over 34,000 temples coming under his department across the state to please the rain God. Needless to say, the exercise is not going to come cheap: the total expenditure for the pujas could cost over Rs 17 crore.

The muzrai (department of religious and charitable endowments) minister said a special puja and homa will be conducted on July 27 and August 2. Temples with water bodies and located near rivers will have to conduct parjanya japa (special prayer for rain God), homa and a special puja. Other temples will have to perform jalabhisheka puja (showering holy water on idol).

An order to this effect has been issued to all deputy commissioners, zonal officers, tehsildars and CEOs of zilla panchayats by the under-secretary of revenue department. Temples have been authorised to spend up to Rs5,000 each from their temple funds.

Defending the decision, Poojari said, “It’s purely a spiritual event to invoke divine forces, and it’s a prayer for rains against the backdrop of drought. The government has understood the necessity of conducting such a special puja.”

The decision to invoke the divine has raised questions. Does it make sense to squander so much money when the state is reeling under a severe drought?

Can’t the money be spent in more judicious ways? The amount, if used for development, could have made a big difference to the lives of people.

This is not the first time a muzrai minister has ordered special prayers in temples. It may be recalled that when Krishnaiah Shetty was muzrai minister, he had ordered a special puja to be conducted in the name of the then CM Yeddyurappa. Shetty took back the order after the move was condemned from all corners

Karnataka's Rs17 crore prayer for rain! - India - DNA

 

[KS]

^^ I think it rained a bit too after a few days ..

Though that yagna was a failure in Tamil Nadu where our minister too did that..

 

[bronxbull]

Sir, where are you from? I'm from Bihar, half my extended family had the curious infamy of being actively associated with the ranvir sena. I've spent half my life listening to the praises to bhumiyar hood, how we are gods gift to this world- being bhumiyar and all. They do absolutely nothing to stop naxals- instead in the name of fighting maoists they collude with local gangs and criminals and extort money. They then use that money to buy political favors and fill up posts with their reps wherever possible.

Well,thats still politics.

And yeah you should be proud of being a Bhumihar.

 

[haviZsultan]

The best way to win over any section of society is to ensure equal treatment.

Anything else breeds resentment and backlash. Besides being anti constitutional.

You suggestions for constitutional amendments for our constitution are duly noted.

I believe a balancing act is actually needed. It is no secret that Hindus in Pakistan and Muslims in India face the worst persecution. I say this as a person whose both parents are from Lucknow and were born there. We saw certain massive biases and the death of a distant relative family. There is a lot of institutional bias. The Rinkle Kumari case proved this in Pakistan while the case of Sana baji in India. Courts, police all work together and favor the majority group. Relatives were told to "go to Pakistan" by a judge or a lawyer-not sure who. In either case there are huge biases.

The reason I am mentioning this is there has to be an act that evens the playing field. We all know muslims in india make up 48% of all jail inmates when they are 13% of the populace and have literacy about 10% lower than Hindus. Now some may blame the Muslims for this as it is the simplest task but something needs to be done about this. The way is to give the selected groups extra benefits.

You can ask anyone I advocate the same for Pakistan. Hindus should receive more funds and help and their yatras should be covered by the government. I designed this for Hindu community in my loyalty to them.

They should be given equal oportunities. When we talk about treating them equally we do not take into account institutional biases that occur and the cases where innocents are picked up ATA 2013 amendment in Pakistan or POTA in India.