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Why not try the Chinese? J-10B or C?

The most important thing, regardless of any deal, would have to be ToT and production in Iran.
 
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BTW ready AFAR radar for MiG-35 while doesn't exist. The first pre-serial prototype is planned to be created before the end of the year. After this there needs many tests. Therefore even the first serial batch of MiG-35 for Russian Airforce will be equipped with Zhuk-M radars, which are now put on the MiG-29SMT fighters.
https://rg.ru/2017/07/11/novejshij-radar-dlia-mig-35-sozdadut-do-konca-goda.html
 
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UN weapons sanctions end in autumn of 2020 year. Su-30SM will be at least produced for few years, since there are already contracts for the Russian Air Force and Belarus until 2020.
 
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PeeD said:
@VEVAK

The J90 is not a Tolue-4 based engine.
It is expected to be a something in the thrust class the Al-222, the next step after the J85 copy Owj.
Two J90 are the likely engines of the F-313.

About lifespan: the RD-33 at the time it went into production was to some extend beyond the capabilities of its production plant. Its TBO was something around 500 hours. Now after 35 years it may has reached 4000 (but I doubt that's TBO, but whole lifespan as you said).
The good news for you is that there seems to be a RD-33 copy project in Iran. I regard it as too expensive.
I want a high degree of automation for the F-313 with lower pilot skill and training requirements, hence less complex/high quality engine.



Enough for that? You want to play a well choreographed game with someone who is the uncontested king in conventional airpower, with 100 times higher resources for it?
What do you expect the outcome would be in that symmetric approach?
For serious decision making, the warfighting potential of the system is determined and a cost threshold calculated in respect with available alternative systems. So if the F-313 with those cheap engines and its size would cost 8m $ a piece, it might would be considered to be acquired as a weapon system, otherwise alternative systems would be selected.

I'm in total not against 60 Su-30SM for the IRIAF, mainly as saber rattling tool, base them somewhere to deliver the threat message. What I talk about is a cold calculation for a country with very limited resources on what will give it the biggest bang for the buck against a massively superior enemy. A life or death decision. There the calculated cost-performance ranking for any fighter would allays be lower than alternatives.



I see. You have realized the high fuel reserve design aspect of the F-313 (although not for a tanker for my taste). The designers seems to know of what importance range is.
Many people are not aware that payloads for a fighter that has to fly 600-800km (needed against Iran) to the target seldom exceeds 1-2 tons on average and any threat on the way could let to jettisoning the weaponload and a mission kill.
Click to expand...

Go 4:50 into the Video

The J-90 is what they'll use to power the Kowsar and it is just an upgraded Tolue-4 that has a little more power with a little more life span! And still the math doesn't add up in terms of overall cost compared to the RD-33 because NO Turbojet engine's math will ever add up when compared to Turbofan engine on a manned aircraft

And it is logical for Iran to have a minimum requirement of Missiles, UCAV,... & Asymmetric Weapons to retaliate incase of a U.S. attack to be used as the countries minimum deterrent capability BUT Iran can NOT base it's entire military structure & doctrine based on what to do if the U.S. attacks!

If you treat your military & military industry as some tool only to be used if and when needed then that's not only short sighted but your not getting your money's worth out of them! A countries Military & Military industry should be the leading organizations in Science & Technology helping to move the country past theories and scientific papers into product that can compete globally! In both the military and civilian sector whos personal get properly trained and ready to contribute to various fields.
We can't base your entire countries future on how to react to a U.S. attack! And a countries military and military industry needs to be a driving force in the countries technological capabilities not some reactionary tool as if it's a stone you can use to throw back at a bully!

And an engine that cost $2 Million USD to produce (per unit) Isn't necessarily more cost effective than an engine that's only $100,000 USD with 1/10 the life span!

The Q-313 was 1st showcased in 2013 with a full scale mockup and the designers thought they had everything figured out & here we are 4 years later & they figured out that neither the wingspan or the thrust was enough to do what they were claiming!
Fact is regardless of the cost of the Q-313 Iran doesn't have the facilities or the human resources to build over 100 per year and a minimum of one Upgraded J-85 per day! Regardless of the price!!!!!!! If they were so easily mass produced then Iran would have had a squadron up doing test flights by now!

And to spend all that money on the facilities to build an Aircraft where 10 of them can't even take on a single Iranian F-14 let alone F-15, Su-30,.... Or to spend all that money on manpower and facilities on an engine that has a higher consumption ratio per pound than an AL-21 or J-79 with a much lower lifespan is absurd!

And you talk about the Q-313 potential range! But what good is rang when you don't have the speed, maneuverability & situational awareness necessary to go with it? So NO!
Q-313 will be good as a short ranged tanker that allows Iran to concentrate a more advanced fighter in central Iran & as a tanker you can keep 1/3 on active duty for training & the rest in storage all spread across the country at various airfields tasked with refueling more advanced fighters once they get to their area of operations!

As for the Su-30 is the Russian don't do a complete tech Transfer (which they won't) I'd rather see Iran build it's own fighter comparable in size & thrust to the Russian Su-30 or the Chinese J-20

But that requires Iran to invest in building an engine that cost $2Million USD to build & an Airframe that requires large amounts of Titanium

That way instead of building 100 a year you can concentrate on something more advanced at rates of 12-24 per year! Instead of having 100 8 Million USD aircrafts a year I'd rather see 12-24 $60-$80Million USD aircrafts a year that would last longer and can be upgraded as time passes
Instead of 400 J-85's per year (one per day) at $100k per I'd rather see 1-2 engines per week!
And I don't think funding from the missile program should go towards this! No! Funding should rather be added to both!

Navigator said:
UN weapons sanctions end in autumn of 2020 year. Su-30SM will be at least produced for few years, since there are already contracts for the Russian Air Force and Belarus until 2020.
Click to expand...

UN sanctions on Weapons will last another 5 years! In Syria, I believe Iran has proven to the world that when it comes to security and military issues Iran will get down and dirty and will stand with it's allies when the going gets tuff regardless of the economic situation at home!
So honestly I think Russia can't find a better ally that will be willing to fight along side them when needed! But for that to happen Russia needs to start treating Iran as a true partner rather than a consumer!
 
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VEVAK said:
I'd rather see Iran build it's own fighter comparable in size & thrust to the Russian Su-30 or the Chinese J-20
Click to expand...

this will take decades!, and only IF! Iran will be able to produce it! (know how/sanctions/....)
 
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@VEVAK

First you are badly confused about the J90.

Second just ask yourself that sense it makes to produce 24, say a Su-30 equivalent each year? Do you know the fleet size of the Americans? You want to reach their level in 100 years or have a kill ratio 1:10 in favor of your fighter? This is lost.

Third why should we not just concentrate on fighting the Americans or a equivalent force? It's a monumental task to achieve a near peer status against the U.S and Iran is going in that direction very effectively.
I know one or two things about military, but if you ask anyone if Iran will ever stand any chance against the U.S military behemoth, the answer will be NEVER. No chance, don't even try it, just accept it.

Iran is doing the impossible and needs to invest its resources very wisely.


So much on that.

The J90 has NOTHING to do with the Tolue-4, a mini turbojet. The J-90 is a small turbofan with two fan stages, 3 LP and 6 HP (the Tolue has 3 stages in total...). If they do it right it will be a very effective design in thrust, cost and SFC.
Do you really think the Kowsar would have such large nacelles if they wanted to fit a Tolue-4 that fits in a C-802?

No. The J90 is Irans first own jet engine design, a turbofan and in class of the Al-222. It is very promising for the F-313 application. They only question is whether they will be able to get it working. It would be a huge accomplishment which no more than about 5 countries in the world are capable of. However because its so huge I don't believe it will happen anytime soon.


Then you say the Qaher was wrongly designed because of the engine number change. What if the IRIAF got interested in that AIO project but would not accept a single engine fighter? Now that we know the IRIAF is involved in the project, almost certainly twin engine was one of their requirements.
I already wrote that in the Qaher thread: Due to the low level operation regime I foresee for the Qaher, two small non-afterburning turbofans are sufficient to mach 0,9 sea level operation. Under those conditions a chasing F-16 with AAMs wont do mach 1,1-1,2 on afterburner. Terrain masking and low level hit and run tactics are what I foresee for the F-313. Its large fuel reserves and non-afterburning engines are the key to the range performance required for Iran and hit and run tactics. Only such a asymmetric approach on manned airpower makes sense against U.S level of manned airpower.

At the end we need to get the job done and figure out how. How fighting against such a professional superior force and not loose? 24 Su-30 copies a year for 60m $ an airframe or 100 "asymmetric" F-313 for 6-10m $ an airframe? If you want to accomplish the impossible, the answer is clear.

A conventional airforce adds some flexibility. 60 Su-35 (WVR+BVR), 20 Mig-29 (WVR+BVR) 40 F-14AM (BVR+ emergency WVR) and 80 F-4 (mach 2 dash BVR intercept and escape) as IADS emergency firefighters and UCAV bomber escort into a degraded enemy airspace are welcome. If resources are available why not. But a larger fleet size would bring it outside the good to have flexibility sphere and be counter productive for the serious missile/UAV based weapon systems.
 
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mohsen said:
Russian Helicopters Plans Ka-226 and Ansat Assembly In Iran

Russian Aviaton » Monday April 3, 2017 18:05 MSK
Russian Helicopters and Iran’s Industrial Development and Renovation Organization (IDRO) have planned a joint venture to assemble KA-226 and Ansat light civilian helicopters, portal Defense World reported.

The Joint Venture to assemble light civilian helicopters in Iran was announced by Russian Helicopters firm last week.

A memorandum of understanding was signed by Russian Helicopters CEO Andrey Boginsky and the chairman of the Board of Directors of IDRO Mansour Moazami. The document is aimed at promoting cooperation between Russia and Iran as part of the program on upgrading the Iranian helicopter fleet.

Russian Helicopters also intends to explore potential for cooperation with IDRO to develop business in the Middle East.

“We see that the demand for light helicopters is high in Iran, and the country needs them for civilian agencies. said Boginsky.

The joint venture between Russia and Iran would consider assembling light Ka-226 or Ansat helicopters. Currently, negotiations on this issue are ongoing. Iran uses almost the whole range of helicopters of this type: Mi-17, Mi-171, Mi-171E, Mi-8MTV and Mi-17V-5s.

These medium-class helicopters are used for law enforcement and to fight organized crime. Just as in other countries of the region, Russian helicopters in Iran have become known primarily as machines that allow to perform tasks in high temperatures and at high altitudes.
Click to expand...

Ka-226 Helicopter To Receive Crash-resistant Fuel System by 2019
Russian Helicopters’ lightweight multirole helicopter Ka-226 will be the first to receive new crash-resistant fuel system which is expected to arrive by early 2019.

"This is one of system remaining in the priority list. Activities on this topic have been underway for several years. We identified the aircraft to be the first one fitted with this system - this is Ka-226 helicopter," department director of Technodinamika Holding Egor Chetvertnykh told TASS Monday.

First specimens will be supplied to Russian Helicopters company in 18-24 months, he added.

Ka-226T is a lightweight multirole helicopter with the takeoff weight of 3.4 tonnes. It is intended to carry up to 1.5 tonnes of cargo or up to 7 passengers on board to a distance of 600 km.

Source: Defense World
 
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Navigator said:
UN weapons sanctions end in autumn of 2020 year. Su-30SM will be at least produced for few years, since there are already contracts for the Russian Air Force and Belarus until 2020.
Click to expand...
and that make the airplane not suitable , by the way if i'm not wrong sanction for airplanes last 2 more years after sanction for other weapons.
 
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When they can take the money for themselves , why should they spend it in R&D section and Airforce ...
answer of this question is the right answer for whole damn issue ...

I feel sorry for myself because I was defending them for years ( more than 10 years in Websites and forums and society )
 
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Draco.IMF said:
this will take decades!, and only IF! Iran will be able to produce it! (know how/sanctions/....)
Click to expand...

And it will take even longer the longer they wait to go towards that direction!

A proper decision should have been taken over a decade ago after the flight tests of the Saegheh were completed as to what Airframe & Engine you'll need in your fleet 20 years from now!
You may be able to build a flying prototype in a matter of few years but a production model will take much longer & building the facilities for industrial size production even longer!

But in my opinion they made a major mistake and a complete miscalculation in their cost vs benefits annalists & they completely miscalculated cost upon purchase with overall cost of operations with a complete disregard of the Military, economic & technological advances of the country when building the most advanced Aircraft & Engine within their capability as oppose to something that's cheep upon purchase!

Right then and there while Oil prices were at $100 per barrel they should have made a decision in Titanium production & It's not like they didn't have Titanium mines in the country they have an ample supply and whether or not some like to admit or not Titanium is a major hurdle for Iran that's why Iran is sanctioned from buying & producing it!

Iran has the potential to produce various rare earth & strategic alloys! It took Iran about 6 months of R&D to start producing Magnesium which is 30% lighter than aluminum over 50% lighter than titanium, and 75% lighter than steel. Yet for many applications it's stronger per unit volume than all three of those structural metals. Although by it's self it is too expensive to be used on fighter but it has the potential of being mixed with other alloys to create other alloy composite used in fighter Airframes.
And that to me means anyone who is trying to sell Iranian Magnesium should be shot!
 
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