IRIAF | News and Discussions

[mack8]

Regarding the Mirages, i'm still of the opinion that Iran cannot afford to throw away a single airframe until a steady supply is 100% assured either from imports or indigenous.

I can't see why the Bayyennat radar from the F-4 Dowran cannot be repackaged to fit the MF1 nose, then it can fire whatever missiles the F-4 Dowran can, including an indigenous AIM-7 or PL-12 or whatever, and any antiship missiles/land attack missiles that will fit (the Mirage could carry Exocets already). So suddenly you have another 20 odd BVR capable multirole airframes.

Same goes for the much maligned F-7, put a repackaged/ resized Bayyennat in the nose and the electronics from Kowsar and voila, a useful addition to IRIAF. But really for the F-7 and F-5/Kowsar to have BVR capability they need a smaller BVR missile like the Derby or MICA, so that the performance penally is not too great.

So between the long range 150-180km Fakkour variants (only for F-14), medium range 100-120km iranian active radar AIM-7 (for F-14, F-4, Mirage F1 and MiG-29) and a lighter weight 60-80 km range iranian Derby (F-7 and F-5/Kowsar and possibly the Mirage too), the BVR needs will be covered. Plus the AIM-9X equivalent for WVR combat.

 

[Daylamite Warrior]

@jhungary consult a clinician instead of imagining you have any importance in this world whilst sat on your arse in your mother's basement.

 

[drmeson]

Regarding the Mirages, i'm still of the opinion that Iran cannot afford to throw away a single airframe until a steady supply is 100% assured either from imports or indigenous.

This mentality has hurt IRIAF more than anything. A smaller and efficient functional fleet >> huge circus fleet with no pylons, no radars, no weapons.

I can't see why the Bayyennat radar from the F-4 Dowran cannot be repackaged to fit the MF1 nose, then it can fire whatever missiles the F-4 Dowran can, including an indigenous AIM-7 or PL-12 or whatever, and any antiship missiles/land attack missiles that will fit (the Mirage could carry Exocets already). So suddenly you have another 20 odd BVR capable multirole airframes.

The issue is the $$. Math does not add up at all in case of Mirages.

- A 100% locally built Kowsar from scratch costs 10-12 Million USD (Serial 3-7400). That is without the armaments. A fully operationalized machine flying with a package of the following will cost around 15-17 Million USD:

2 x All Aspect WVR Fattar/Azarakhsh
2 x BVR R-77ER/Local AIM-7F equivalent (Hypothetical)
1 Drop Tank
5 SDB PGM

- A Rebuilt Kowsar from the F-5E/F repository of parts costs around 7.5 Million USD. Fully functionalized one will cost around 13-15 Million USD. The new package includes

New Fuselage skin, reworked interior architecture to house avionics
2 x OWJ Turbojets + new pressure valves/pumps
New Gears, wings, elevators, and tails with composite control surfaces with some level FBW
Cockpit layout, Ejection Seats, Canopy
Radar+ECM, E-warfare (Jammer, RWR, Chaff), Nav-Comm (Radio, TACAN), Bi-Duplex Data L

If the above package minus the turbojets and fuselage work costs around 5-7 Million USD, then this means the same package implementation on ~20-22 MF-1 will cost 150-200 Million USD including the armaments. The aircraft has no deep local infrastructure where its rather complex SNECMA Atar turbojets can be re-built or produced locally like J-85II/OWJ, I for one has never seen a single photo of its fuselage or turbojets being reworked upon the way we see Phantoms, Cats or Tigers being opened up inside Iran. Also, the plane has very less nose and fuselage area to house avionics, it won't be able to house F-4E Dowran's Bayyenat-I. It will only be another faster Kowsar-I.

In those 150-200 Million USD IRIAF rather get the following:

- 2-3 x more SU-35S
- 10-12 x Newly built Kowsar-I

Ideal solution for Mirages will be to hand them over to IRGC-AF or just sell/gift them to whoever takes them.

Same goes for the much maligned F-7, put a repackaged/ resized Bayyennat in the nose and the electronics from Kowsar and voila, a useful addition to IRIAF. But really for the F-7 and F-5/Kowsar to have BVR capability they need a smaller BVR missile like the Derby or MICA, so that the performance penally is not too great.

F-5 airframe can easily house a normal BVR missile of R-77/AIM-7F size. We do not know what is happening behind the scenes. If Su-35S come with excessive R-77ER then they can easily be slaved to local SAIRAN radars both of which come from Grifo origin through Chinese NRIET and we know Chinese radars easily provide track info to Russian BVR.

So between the long range 150-180km Fakkour variants (only for F-14)

Only for F-14AM.

The F-14A => F-14AM upgradation and operationalisation with Fakour-90 itself costs around 5 Million USD.

medium range 100-120km iranian active radar AIM-7 (for F-14, F-4, Mirage F1 and MiG-29)

MIG-29 9.12 in IRIAF service can not fire anything other than the R-27R1 SARH BVR missile. It has a relic radar, even if they get upgraded to SMT standard (quoting BT) then they will get R-77ER as a BVR weapon instead of hypothetical AIM-7.

You are right about Iranian AIM-7E2 or F on Kowsar and F-4 Dowran. That only if we actually get the confirmation of local AIM-7E2/F, right now we only have a pic from an exhibition.

Current Mirages have no functionalized radars. They fly on radio or with chase planes.

and a lighter weight 60-80 km range iranian Derby (F-7 and F-5/Kowsar and possibly the Mirage too), the BVR needs will be covered. Plus the AIM-9X equivalent for WVR combat.

My only true hope is the bold part because we have published + pictorial info about a local CCD imaging missile with four independent motors controlling its canards while the fins have no rollerons, meaning there is steering at fins and there is the installation of a local motor with larger fuel compartment to extend range.

If IRIAF is serious in its interception game then that is the solution for its current and future F-5 derivatives. AIM-9X Block III has a range of 56-60 KM that's well into the BVR envelope LINK. An Ideal weapon would be an HMD-slaved FnF CCD imaging missile with a no-escape zone within 60 KM. A low RCS fighter carrying IRST, HMD and such a missile will be very hard to deal with.

sam-2 sam-2m and sam-3, i wonder if they could not at least made it compatible with something relevant ?

I guess the designer had the mentioned missiles SARH/ARH illumination reference to test the transponder against so they mentioned it.

I learnt this lesson myself that Lab guys should never try their hands at marketing.

wonder if kowsar radar is not already better than those

The manufacturer designed the system not for single type of plane only. IRIAF F-4 fleet needs this thing more than Kowsar because them being the attack trucks.

and that mirage-f1 is hilarious specially the long list of the weapon they put on it .
the only use i knew for it is dropping iron bomb on the head of Taliban . it literally is useless for anything else

I was literally thinking the same, 17 are currently operational, they are fast and can gain altitude very quickly (45-50K ft/min), they can drop heavy dumb bombs on Talib pedos if housed at Birjand.

............................

What is going on ?

https://twitter.com/x/status/666546666724532224

 

[Piet]

Please do

Thanks in advance



I usually make info-slides on Iranian weapons because Iranian media suck at doing so. I take the most authentic official stats and unbiased sources. So I will continue doing that, I asked others here before to help but no one was interested.

Better late than never.

What help do you have in mind.

P

 

[drmeson]

Thank you for your kind words.

Just wondering, the IRGC appears able to get things done. Would it not be just an application of all resources, focused on a single aim, namely to rejuvenate the IRIAF, that would necessitate these two branches to work together? Because of sanctions imposed against the IRGC, perhaps better to retain the IRIAF 'officially' as the 'senior' service, while it receives 'unofficial' political, financial and technical succor from the IRGC, to do what it has to.

However, I think that a stumbling block to such co-operation would be found, unfortunately, in human nature, leaders lacking vision.

The analogy of missile developments as pertaining to the IRIAF's current needs are apt.

P

I always have said that IRIAF some level merger with IRGCAF will only help IRIAF. The planners of IRIAF are bad at decision-making and entire force is made of lobbys. IRGC will drain the swamp off lobbies inside IRIAF. Also IRGC has $$, much more motivated officers compared to the lethargic IRIAF.

Some level cooperation exists already such as SSJ pulling upgradations on IRIAF planes.

Great pics thanks.

Very excited when I saw the wingtip hardpoints carrying what could only be related to AN/APX-95. Of course also the active countermeasures at the rear, beneath the engines.

However, thinking of HESA's towed decoy system, I did a double take when I looked again at the close-up of the AN/APX-95 pod. In this pic F-R-T-L there are two posters with Iranian flags, then a blue book, the pod, a red book, and then on a lower stand on the left two fittings which caused me to also think in terms of towed decoys.

P

You think the Tiger is wearing a towed decoy on its wingtip?

 

[TheImmortal]

Regarding the Mirages, i'm still of the opinion that Iran cannot afford to throw away a single airframe until a steady supply is 100% assured either from imports or indigenous.

Throwing away an airframe is stupid. Look at Ukraine, it is begging everyone for their old fighter jets to use. Their own old airframes were quickly modified to fire NATO munitions.

Worst case scenario, Iran can sell these jets to Syrian Air Force or Iraqi Air Force. Both are in desperate need for more jets.

I’m surprised Syria has not placed a single older for Kowsar. Yes Syria is poor, but they can find ways to buy 24 Kowsar jets.

 

[Piet]

........................

AN/APX-95 ECM pod is being tested on F-5F testbed probably for use on Kowsar-I. It is a very efficient system

.........................

Someone is trying to paddle the idea of Mirage-F1 as a carrier of AShCM and Fakour-90 LR-BVR.

To launch a 150 KM ranging LR-BVR, the target needs to be tracked first and for that you need a radar which this MF'er does not have. It is hilarious.

Hi

I would very much like to add the image above to my paper, showing the starboard side of the F-5F with the AN/AX wingtip pod if that is ok.

If ok., how should I attribute it, to https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iriaf-news-and-discussions.358559/page-692 (drmeson) , or to Lyra, Araynavy, which frankly does not say much.

Thanks

P

 

[drmeson]

I’m surprised Syria has not placed a single older for Kowsar. Yes Syria is poor, but they can find ways to buy 24 Kowsar jets.

- Production capacity right now is barely 6/year due to budget cuts. That is even below the demand for IRIAF let alone a foreign customer.

- Syria can't afford a 15 Million a piece plane that is still underpowered and can't fight outside IADS. Syria has no IADS as of now although Israelis are saying Iran is building one in Syria.

- Syria has not ordered Karrar MBT or any APC from Iran either despite their mass armour loss during the war. They have a GDP of 20 Billion USD

Hi

I would very much like to add the image above to my paper, showing the starboard side of the F-5F with the AN/AX wingtip pod if that is ok.

If ok., how should I attribute it, to https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iriaf-news-and-discussions.358559/page-692 (drmeson) , or to Lyra, Araynavy, which frankly does not say much.

Thanks

P

You can cite multiple sources such as Twitter posts, PDF. You are doing great work. I will continue following it.

Mind you this is merely our conjecture that it may be used by Kowsar. The plane testing it is F-5F, it could very well be for F-7 fleet.

 

[Piet]

I always have said that IRIAF some level merger with IRGCAF will only help IRIAF. The planners of IRIAF are bad at decision-making and entire force is made of lobbys. IRGC will drain the swamp off lobbies inside IRIAF. Also IRGC has $$, much more motivated officers compared to the lethargic IRIAF.

Some level cooperation exists already such as SSJ pulling upgradations on IRIAF planes.



You think the Tiger is wearing a towed decoy on its wingtip?

No, if I interpreted the imagines correctly than that is AN/APX-95 related, not a towed array.

The point I want to make is that these wingtips pods probably are a better representation of a real wingtip decoy, than those on the F-5E, illustrated.

P

 

[TheImmortal]

- Production capacity right now is barely 6/year due to budget cuts. That is even below the demand for IRIAF let alone a foreign customer.

International deals are exactly what give such programs life. See F-35 that nearly every western nation is buying. More contracts = cheaper production.

That is why at nearly every arms expo iran kept trying to get Yasin trainer model showed off to get contracts.

Iran arms industry works no different than other countries. It needs contracts to build. Right now Air Force isn’t giving them major contracts. No wether that is due to Air Force not wanting the plane or not getting funding from the overall budget, the end result is the same.

- Syria can't afford a 15 Million a piece plane that is still underpowered and can't fight outside IADS. Syria has no IADS as of now although Israelis are saying Iran is building one in Syria.

It isn’t for Israel it is for fighting terrorists and training pilots. It can do much better bombing runs and close air support than the ancient planes it has dropping barrel bombs.

- Syria has not ordered Karrar MBT or any APC from Iran either despite their mass armour loss during the war. They have a GDP of 20 Billion USD

T-72 and T-62 are still enough against rag tag terrorists. They actually got some T-90’s that IRGC miltias used and Iran tested out. That’s how Iran committed to Karrar design.

As I said, there is creative financing that can be done. More IRGC bases More reconstruction contracts More power plant contracts More resource mining contracts. Not everything has to be done in cash or gold.

 

[drmeson]

International deals are exactly what give such programs life. See F-35 that nearly every western nation is buying. More contracts = cheaper production.

That is why at nearly every arms expo iran kept trying to get Yasin trainer model showed off to get contracts.

Iran arms industry works no different than other countries. It needs contracts to build. Right now Air Force isn’t giving them major contracts. No wether that is due to Air Force not wanting the plane or not getting funding from the overall budget, the end result is the same.

The problem is, if Syria orders 30 x Kowsar-I then with HESA barely being able to churn out 6 units of Kowsar-I it will take 5 years to complete the order. The deal will cost 450 Million USD and no Syria would not be able to pay fast to accelerate the production. They just have a GDP of 15-20 Bln USD. Meanwhile, before supplying abroad, IRIAF at home is in dire need of replenishments.

The equation changes if Russia-Syria-Iran creates a joint task force where procurement is funded by Iran (and probably by Russia?).

It isn’t for Israel it is for fighting terrorists and training pilots. It can do much better bombing runs and close air support than the ancient planes it has dropping barrel bombs.

It can but SyAF already has a fleet of some ~60 x SU-24MK + SU-22M4 then there is a fleet of 60 x L-39 for CAS. A single SU-24MK's MTOW is 4 times that of Kowsar. I see no reason the cash-strapped nation will go for Kowsar-I, a plane designed for BVR tracking, e-warfare + data exchanges with light PGM strike.

T-72 and T-62 are still enough against rag tag terrorists. They actually got some T-90’s that IRGC miltias used and Iran tested out. That’s how Iran committed to Karrar design.

As I said, there is creative financing that can be done. More IRGC bases More reconstruction contracts More power plant contracts More resource mining contracts. Not everything has to be done in cash or gold.

I seriously do not think HESA has the capacity to build more planes. BT was saying that the assembly line capacity is limited to 6 planes a year max. That's even below the requirement of IRIAF. HESA's legs will be stretched more if Yasin AT is ordered by IRIAF or someone abroad considering their aggressive marketing. Ideally, HESA should be giving out 12 x Kowsar-I a year to conclude the ~65-70 fighter orders by 2025.

 

[TheImmortal]

I seriously do not think HESA has the capacity to build more planes. BT was saying that the assembly line capacity is limited to 6 planes a year max. That's even below the requirement of IRIAF. HESA's legs will be stretched more if Yasin AT is ordered by IRIAF or someone abroad considering their aggressive marketing. Ideally, HESA should be giving out 12 x Kowsar-I a year to conclude the ~65-70 fighter orders by 2025.

Why is capacity so low? What is the point of this plane if they can’t make 36-48+ per year? By the time enough get built the plane will be beyond obsolete.

China began J-20 mass production in 2017 and claims to have 200+ that’s in 6 years!

Iran in 23 years has how many F-5 derivative planes? 24? 48?

 

[tsunset]

What do you guys think about my previous post talking about AGM-122 Sidearm?

I am sure Iran has the capability to transform the Aim-9 into Sidearms, Iran have some experience in ARM, in ballistic missiles, Hormuz-2 anti-radiation

US made something creative, an AIM-9 turned into an ARM air to ground missile, mounted on SuperCobras with a range of 16km. I am sure more feature could be added into that kind of helicopter missiles type, loitering munition, something like 358 launched from helicopter

AGM-122 Sidearm

 

[drmeson]

Why is capacity so low? What is the point of this plane if they can’t make 36-48+ per year? By the time enough get built the plane will be beyond obsolete.

IRGC has a budget of 6 Billion USD of its own while IRIAF has 300-400 Million USD a year. Which is why IRGC shows us Fattah HGV, Sejjil MaRV, K-4 PBV, Shahid Soleimani Frigates etc while IRIAF gets nothing. If the budget gets to 1-1.2 Billion USD then the production capacity can triple to almost 18 Kowsar-I per year.

and BTW Kowsar-I is already kinda obsolete considering that it has X-band PD-FCR not AESA, and lacks HOTAS while HMD is mentioned by SAIRAN head openly but we have not seen it yet. Until those things are installed in Kowsar-I the plane remains an underpowered 4.0 generation fighter that can give heat to intruder party at BVR ranges with F-14AM, through its strong e-warfare ECM suite and Data L but only within cover of IADS. Outside it will be smashed.

China began J-20 mass production in 2017 and claims to have 200+ that’s in 6 years!

PLAAF had $$ and wanted planes. IRIAF has least possible $$ and wants to waste that money on F-7N, MF-1, F-5E/F fleet of some 122 total airframes.

Iran in 23 years has how many F-5 derivative planes? 24? 48?

2001-2004 = 3 x Azarakhsh (CATIC (China) + OWJ + SSJ (Iran)
2003-2007= 5 x Saeghe-I (OWJ+HESA)
2015 = 1 x Saeghe-II (HESA)
2018 = 4 x Kowsar operational

So 14 have been created over the period of 22 years.

.........................................................................................................................

For whoever is interested.

3 x Azarakhsh have completely been dismantled and are now being rebuilt as Kowsar-I. Seems like Saegheh-I/II will see same fate.

This one of the three Azaraksh-I (3-7330), dismantled and rebuilt to Kowsar-I standard. Credit = BT

I know we make fun of Saegheh and Azarakhsh a lot but by no means this was a useless plane some 25 years ago. Kowsar-I is offcourse a healthy generation above Azarakhsh but 25 years have passed.

Radar
Azaraksh: SY-80 Radar (40KM detect, 30 KM Track, look down shoot down)
Kowsar: Bayyenat-II/Grifo 346 (120KM Detect, 94 KM Track, SAR resolution of 1 m^2)

Airframe/Flight/Powerplant
Azaraksh: Refurbished F-5E airframe with 2 x J-85II
Kowsar: Can be 100 % locally built to Rebuilt existing airframes with indigenous interior architecture to house avionics, 2 x OWJ turbojets, composite control surfaces, some level FBW

Cockpit
Azaraksh: 2 x MFD + HUD + Martin Baker MB.IRQ7A ejection seats
Kowsar: 3 x MFD + 4 Mini MFD + F-HUD + MIL STD 1553 Architectured Integrated Control Panel + HESA Sarir ejection seats

Navigation Communication
Azaraksh: GPS, JD-3 TACAN + Type III IFF
Kowsar: Mobile Mapper + INS + GPS + TACAN + IFF + U/VHF + Double Duplex Datalinking

Self Defence
Azaraksh: 930-4 RWR + 941-4AC chaff/flare
Kowsar: Radar Controlled ECM jammer, IEI RWR/MAWS, IEI Chaff/Flare, AN/APX-95 ECM pod.

Mission Computer
Azaraksh: Air data + Mission computer
Kowsar: Air Data Computer (ADC) + Weapons Management Computer (WMC) + Ballistic Computer (Ball-C) + Avionic Mission Computer (AMC)

Armaments
Azaraksh: WVR PL-5C + AIM-9J Fatter, MK-82
Kowsar: BVR (AIM-7E2?, R-77ER?) + Fatter/Azarakhsh WVR + local SDB PGM/A2G/AShCM Missiles.

 

[TheImmortal]

What do you guys think about my previous post talking about AGM-122 Sidearm?

I am sure Iran has the capability to transform the Aim-9 into Sidearms, Iran have some experience in ARM, in ballistic missiles, Hormuz-2 anti-radiation

US made something creative, an AIM-9 turned into an ARM air to ground missile, mounted on SuperCobras with a range of 16km. I am sure more feature could be added into that kind of helicopter missiles type, loitering munition, something like 358 launched from helicopter

AGM-122 Sidearm

View attachment 934122
View attachment 934121

And what radar/radiation source would Iran be targeting in a 20KM radius in case of warfare? Land invasion of iran is borderline 0% of happening.

I don’t see the use case for this missile for Iran vs an invader focused military (USA). I like radiation missiles, but in CM format with long range (500-1000KM). Mostly against Centcom in PGGC and US navy.