IRIAF | News and Discussions

[TheImmortal]

though I'm no metallurgist myself and I haven't seen the specs of the 3d printer at TAI, I suspect that a forged, machined titanium part would still be stronger than the 3d printed one. And most parts of TFX will be made of composite anyway.

That 3D printer is no joke. It allows Turkey to produce precise parts without the need of a host of problems that come with traditional production.

Significant portion of TFX will likely be made of titanium including fuselage. 42% of an F-22 is made out of titanium as an example

I'm sure the titanium parts in F-14 can be replaced by parts redesigned for whatever production methods Iran has. The Iranian F-14 would end up being a bit heavier but so be it. %10 heavier F-14 still beats the living shit out of Kowsar.

Would be way more than 10%. Titanium offers same strength as steel (or more), but HALF its weight.

Heavier aircraft = more powerful engines or slower moving and less agile aircraft if replaced with steel

 

[Ich]

The turbine blade for a gas turbine is not pulling 7-9 G’s over and over

Turbine blade: "Hold my beer."

Edit: @TheImmortal

"Optimierte Festigkeit und Korrosionsbeständigkeit der Turbinenschaufeln: Heute arbeiten Gasturbinen mit Verbrennungsgasen mit einer Temperatur von bis zu 1.500 °C bei über 20 bar und erreichen Wirkungsgrade von über 40 %. Bei diesen Bedingungen könnten die metallischen Turbinenschaufeln anschmelzen oder korrodieren. Es besteht auch die Gefahr, dass die Schaufeln zerbrechen, denn es wirken Beschleunigungskräfte von bis zum 10.000fachen der Erdbeschleunigung. Die Schaufeln der ersten Stufe bestehen deshalb aus extrem festen, einkristallinen Superlegierungen, die an der Oberfläche mit korrosionsfester, schlecht wärmeleitender, hochschmelzender Keramik überzogen sind."

"
Optimized strength and corrosion resistance of turbine blades:
Today, gas turbines operate with combustion gases at temperatures of up to
1,500 °C at over 20 bar and achieve efficiencies of over 40 %. Under these
conditions, the metallic turbine blades could melt or corrode.
There is also a risk of the blades breaking because of the
acceleration forces of up to 10,000 times the acceleration due to gravity. The blades
of the first stage are therefore made of extremely strong, single-crystal superalloys, which are
coated on the surface with corrosion-resistant, poorly heat-conducting, high-melting-point ceramics.
ceramic on the surface.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

But hey, "airframe"....

 

[LegionnairE]

That 3D printer is no joke. It allows Turkey to produce precise parts without the need of a host of problems that come with traditional production.

Significant portion of TFX will likely be made of titanium including fuselage. 42% of an F-22 is made out of titanium as an example



Would be way more than 10%. Titanium offers same strength as steel (or more), but HALF its weight.

Heavier aircraft = more powerful engines or slower moving and less agile aircraft if replaced with steel

Yeah but the times are changing and TFX will have much more composite than F22.

And you know, Aluminium is much stronger than steel for its weight too. I'm sure Iran can make some very strong aluminium alloys. If you can't just import a lot of high-end bicycle frames and melt them down lol.

Jokes aside, where I'm trying to get at is that Iranian F-14 can even be as light as the original F-14 if it's done right. Get rid of the variable geometry wings for example, that's some unnecessary complexity. Use more, modern composites.

It can be done. I am %100 certain that it can be done.

 

[TheImmortal]

Yeah but the times are changing and TFX will have much more composite than F22.

And you know, Aluminium is much stronger than steel for its weight too. I'm sure Iran can make some very strong aluminium alloys. If you can't just import a lot of high-end bicycle frames and melt them down lol.

Jokes aside, where I'm trying to get at is that Iranian F-14 can even be as light as the original F-14 if it's done right. Get rid of the variable geometry wings for example, that's some unnecessary complexity. Use more, modern composites.

It can be done. I am %100 certain that it can be done.

No point. Better to copy the F-22, F/35, J-31, J-20, TFX, etc fighter template:

There is a reason all the top aircraft designers eventually landed on similar templates for the 5th Gen.

It’s funny you mention F-14, because back when the propaganda (or proof of concept) of Qaher was unveiled. One do the officials said they went to Supreme Leader and said they will reverse engineer F-14 if he wills it. But they claimed he said to start from scratch and not to
Copy. To me it sounds like F-14 or a modernized version of it was not economically (or technically) feasible for Iran circa 2010.

My thoughts are F-14 even today is not only a dated design (swept wing), but in the new era of air defense systems and BVRs, requires stealthier air frames. Simply put if you are going to waste tens of billions of dollars to build your own fighter jet, build something that isn’t already obsolete against future threats once it leaves the assembly line.

At the minimum you should be building a .25m2 RCS or below size design. Anything else is a waste of funds and you should use foreign planes as cheaper stop gaps till you can build such a design.

 

[Iranian_Patriot]

I'm just saying that you will have to learn Turkish because Iran as a state will cease to exist. But don't worry, Iranians are very much used to being ruled by Turks, even now the Supreme leader of Iran is an ethnic Turk. You'll adapt.



No matter what you do, F-14 will always be able to carry a bigger and more powerful radar than Kowsar, and more missiles. Most importantly, the missile carried by F-14 is the much heavier AIM-54 Phoenix. Kowsar can't compete with that.

Do you realize that F-18E carries TWO of the gripen's F-414 engines? Kowsar is not in the same league as F-18.

Look, if Iran builds a homemade F-18 with some Russian engines I'm fine with that too

Turkey had no victory on part 10 years except Armenia. Donkeys lost in Syria, in Libya and are still waiting for god knows what against Greece or PKK... Please keep barking against Iran its Always funny To watch

 

[LegionnairE]

Turkey had no victory on part 10 years except Armenia. Donkeys lost in Syria, in Libya and are still waiting for god knows what against Greece or PKK... Please keep barking against Iran its Always funny To watch

1953 Korea, 1974 Cyprus 1980ies and 1990ies anti-pkk operations, 2010s Syria and Libya, 2020 Azerbaijan.

TAF never stopped fighting., one of the most experienced fighting forces in the world. In air, sea and land.

No point. Better to copy the F-22, F/35, J-31, J-20, TFX, etc fighter template:

There is a reason all the top aircraft designers eventually landed on similar templates for the 5th Gen.

It’s funny you mention F-14, because back when the propaganda (or proof of concept) of Qaher was unveiled. One do the officials said they went to Supreme Leader and said they will reverse engineer F-14 if he wills it. But they claimed he said to start from scratch and not to
Copy. To me it sounds like F-14 or a modernized version of it was not economically (or technically) feasible for Iran circa 2010.

My thoughts are F-14 even today is not only a dated design (swept wing), but in the new era of air defense systems and BVRs, requires stealthier air frames. Simply put if you are going to waste tens of billions of dollars to build your own fighter jet, build something that isn’t already obsolete against future threats once it leaves the assembly line.

At the minimum you should be building a .25m2 RCS or below size design. Anything else is a waste of funds and you should use foreign planes as cheaper stop gaps till you can build such a design.

Iran already tried its hand in a fifth gen design and failed. What I have in mind is a missile truck like F-15EX based on F-14. Only critical technology needed for this is datalink to work with ground based radars. That's it.

I believe this is viable now and would fit Iran's defensive doctrine.

 

[aryobarzan]

FYI:
Iran now has the capability to produce aircraft grade Titanium sheets and "FORM" the sheets into segments required to construct an airframe (screen shot of Titanium sheet in Kowsar production line video attached below).

Iran also opened a third "titanium mine" in Aug 2022..Iran's largest Titanium mine came on stream in 2020 and holds 120 million tons of Titanium ore.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638618410438328320

​

 

[Piet]

Kowsar could be made as effective as F-14 by making these choices:
- no automatic cannons on the aircraft.
- new nose for the aircraft to house larger radar.
- new air to air missile that at most is 500lbs in weight.
- with modern manufacturing should allow new AAM an AIM-54 range.
- landing gear on wing removed, lighter wing with fuel storage capacity.
- new landing gear at rear similar to Su-25 or MiG-23 at very least.
- RD-33 equivalent low bypass turbofan without afterburner.
- thus weight comparable to two J85 and length too to J85.
- longer range, endurance and top speed of Mach 2 clean.
- most notable would such able to do super cruise.

The above tallies what I have surmised also, barring a few differences.

- No auto cannon (the Vietnam war has shown this to be an error in judgement - there is a photo-shopped image of Kowsar showing a single barrel cannon dropped to the lower cheek, port side).

New nose for larger radar. Check. See https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-thunder-still-under-evaluation-by-the-plaaf.150839/ for instance, and consider also Iran's own Shafaq.

- New AAM weighing at most 500lbs. (Check ... AIM-120D weighs 358 lbs. R-77M, weights 419+ lbs. This is from the R-77-1. PL-15 - comes in at 419 lbs. And finally the Meteor, also 419lbs). All of these missiles have a range of 150 - 200+km.

- modern manufacturing should allow a new AAM an AIM-54 range. Doable. Besides modern manufacturing - think newer, lighter, material - hybrid solid fuel, and also an improved guidance system resulting in a more energy-efficient trajectory. All the aforementioned pushed Sayyad-4B's range up from 200km(4A) to 300km.

- landing gear on wing removed, lighter wing with fuel storage capacity: Check, check, check. Wings like Iran's cranked delta, and add. fuel with permanent CFT's. While I agree with the removal of the landing gear.

- new landing gear at rear similar to Su-25 or MiG-23... I will err on the side of caution and simply say that I do not have the foggiest of how much tinkering and panel beating this would require. Nevertheless, I will still adjudge this as a check. Just wonder if the automatic gear reportedly first fielded on Saeqeh some years back could tribute something to this end?

- Regarding a RD-33 equivalent low bypass turbofan without afterburner. I do not agree as there are a/c such as the F-20 Tigershark L =14.43 m; JF-17 Blk-3 L =14.33m; JAS-39C Gripen L=14.9m; and the Tejas Mk 2 = 14.65m. All those aircraft have engines roughly in the size and thrust class of the RD-33, All with A/B. The a/c on which this new iteration of Kowsar will likely be base is the Saeqeh II. The 2 seater has a L =~15.89m, depending on the source consulted. So the propulsion, say RD-33 with AB, should not present intractable problems being fitted to a single seat Kowsar.

- longer range, endurance and top speed of Mach 2 clean. By way of example, the F-20. It has a CAP of 138 minutes on station + 20 minutes reserve at 560km. For hi-lo-hi interdiction its 1,020 km. F-20 has a top speed of M=2 so I assume Kowsar will follow suit. Another tick.

- most notable would such able to do super cruise. I have not come across such info regarding F-20, and by implication also a 'new' Kowsar. Will have to wait until a new Kowsar become public and data starts to emerge.

​

 

[TheImmortal]

Iran already tried its hand in a fifth gen design and failed.

Iran did not try 5th Gen. If you understand Iran’s military structure you will realize up until 2015-2016 IRGC did not believe in AirPower. The war in syria and demonstration of Russian Air Force MAY HAVE swayed some opinion that a CAS (close air support) role for airforce can be critical. However, nothing is certain:

Considering the IRGC gets 80% of Iran’s military budget and have significant sway at the top with leadership they have nixed most projects requiring expensive fighter jet projects for the IRIAF.

Qaher was an early early proof of concept to gauge leadership interest in funding an eventual fighter. I would compare it to 1980-1990 discussions on YF-22 which eventually would become F-22, very early stage.

Unfortunately it didn’t get green light and just bounced around as a propaganda project. When Iran is serious about something it builds it fast, see Solemani Catamaran that went from proof of concept to reality before anyone even heard of it. (Satellite images picked it up before we knew).

What I have in mind is a missile truck like F-15EX based on F-14. Only critical technology needed for this is datalink to work with ground based radars. That's it.

I believe this is viable now and would fit Iran's defensive doctrine.

We don’t need a bomb truck when we have 10,000+ BM’s tens of thousands of suicide drones. And thousands of CMs. What we really need is an interceptor that can defend our air space and protect our air defense network from being hunted during a war.

A bomb truck like F-15EX couldn’t even penetrate Saudi Arabia’s airspace let alone US bases. To give you an idea you are probably detecting an 5th Gen fighter around 35-40KM out assuming it doesn’t inadvertently get illuminated at a bad angle exposing high RCS.

An F-15 would get illuminated and detected somewhere around 150KM+ out due to its very high RCS. It’s the worst culprit among F-14, F-16, F-15, F18, F-20.

I have proposed a high speed Supersonic high altitude VLO bomber drone using a delta wing configuration that can carry 1000-1500 kg payloads in its internal bay. This fleet if it can be built for under $500K or even $1M per drone would supplement Iran’s BM fleet and could survive in foreign airspace. It would rely on high speed (Mach 2-3) and low radar design (<.25m2) as well as high altitude (50-60K feet) or terrain hugging like F-117 (under 500 feet) to avoid most radars. The thing that Iran lacks is a efficient supersonic reusable engine that could fit in such a drone. Everything else needed to build such a drone has already been demonstrated at mass production level.

Very few air defense systems can engage at 60K feet let alone an object moving at Mach 2-3. It would be in and out air defense zones before the crew can even detect it.

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

One of the dumbest statements about the year 2023 on this forum is:

- The only reason Iran is building F-5s is because it lacks titanium in its airframe -

It's unbelievable but true

 

[TheImmortal]

FYI:
Iran now has the capability to produce aircraft grade Titanium sheets and "FORM" the sheets into segments required to construct an airframe (screen shot of Titanium sheet in Kowsar production line video attached below).
View attachment 928444
Iran also opened a third "titanium mine" in Aug 2022..Iran's largest Titanium mine came on stream in 2020 and holds 120 million tons of Titanium ore.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638618410438328320

​

Show me you can build titanium fuselages and an F-35 size aircraft with 40% of the material in super alloy TI. Show me you can do precise uniform design on very large segments (not a few sheets) on a mass production line at reasonable cost for hundreds of aircraft (not a 2-3 plane assembly line for Kowsar test bed).

Then show me you can build a medium to heavy engine in the AL-21 to AL-31 class at mass production level without failure and a reasonable number of working hours to overhaul (not a handful a year like OWJ) .

Then show me you have IRGC blessing to allow such funds to be diverted (billions).

I been telling you guys this since the IMF days (Iranian military forum) circa 2010. Yet you guys continue to listen to delusional propagandists. At the time it was @yavar on IMF and it looks like now it is @Mr Iran Eye on PDF.

Whatever makes you guys sleep at night. Without a strong engine and required metallurgy, the only thing Iran can build (in small time consuming amounts) is F-5 size aircraft because it can do the metallurgy and the engine requirement for that size fighter jet. It’s no secret why Qaher was also the SAME class size as F-5 when nearly every 5th Gen fighter concept or design is 3-4x it’s size.

 

[aryobarzan]

Show me you can build titanium fuselages and an F-35 size aircraft with 40% of the material in super alloy TI. Show me you can do precise uniform design on very large segments (not a few sheets) on a mass production line at reasonable cost for hundreds of aircraft (not a 2-3 plane assembly line for Kowsar test bed).

Then show me you can build a medium to heavy engine in the AL-21 to AL-31 class at mass production level without failure and a reasonable number of working hours to overhaul (not a handful a year like OWJ) .

Then show me you have IRGC blessing to allow such funds to be diverted (billions).

I been telling you guys this since the IMF days (Iranian military forum) circa 2010. Yet you guys continue to listen to delusional propagandists. At the time it was @yavar on IMF and it looks like now it is @Mr Iran Eye on PDF.

Whatever makes you guys sleep at night. Without a strong engine and required metallurgy, the only thing Iran can build (in small time consuming amounts) is F-5 size aircraft because it can do the metallurgy and the engine requirement for that size fighter jet. It’s no secret why Qaher was also the SAME class size as F-5 when nearly every 5th Gen fighter concept or design is 3-4x it’s size.

I appreciate your skepticism. Nothing wrong with that..but It is important to make everyone aware that there are no impediment to Iran making any type of aircraft if she chooses to do so..no engine problems , no Titanium problem no avionics problem. What is missing is an approved and funded program to bring all together.
As you mentioned it yourself the Value of a strong Airforce is just beginning to sink in with the establishment..I repeat again "all that is needed is large scale well funded program to tie in all the pieces".

PS: I would not be surprised if that well funded program comes in the commercial side of the aviation industry in the form of 50, 75, 150 seat Iranian commercial airliner projects..I would actually like to be the case.

 

[LegionnairE]

Qaher was an early early proof of concept to gauge leadership interest in funding an eventual fighter. I would compare it to 1980-1990 discussions on YF-22 which eventually would become F-22, very early stage.

Your "proof of concept" is proof that Iran can't make it.

A bomb truck like F-15EX couldn’t even penetrate Saudi Arabia’s airspace let alone US bases. To give you an idea you are probably detecting an 5th Gen fighter around 35-40KM out assuming it doesn’t inadvertently get illuminated at a bad angle exposing high RCS.

It's not the point. You don't understand F-15EX. It's designed to carry AIM-120 air-to-air missiles and support the F-35 from behind.

Iranian F-14 will carry AIM-54 Phoenix missiles and support SAM installations. Which is iran's first (and only) line of defense.

 

[lydian fall]

Your "proof of concept" is proof that Iran can't make it.


It's not the point. You don't understand F-15EX. It's designed to carry AIM-120 air-to-air missiles and support the F-35 from behind.

Iranian F-14 will carry AIM-54 Phoenix missiles and support SAM installations. Which is iran's first (and only) line of defense.

@waz

 

[Mehdipersian]

Your "proof of concept" is proof that Iran can't make it.


It's not the point. You don't understand F-15EX. It's designed to carry AIM-120 air-to-air missiles and support the F-35 from behind.

Iranian F-14 will carry AIM-54 Phoenix missiles and support SAM installations. Which is iran's first (and only) line of defense.

Iran air defence missiles and batteries are our line of defence.
Even f 35 can't come near our borders easily