IRIAF | News and Discussions

[Hack-Hook]

F-5E/F does not stand a chance, Kowsar with its 90km range radar has a chance and AIM-23B / Fakour-90 is ARH like AIM-54 Phoenix hence it would not need solid lock on like AIM-7 would need that is SARH and needs radar to guide it towards target during entire flight.

what I saw of Fakour tell me its more like a MIM-23 in the shell of AIM-54

F-5E/F / Kowsar can carry three drop tanks hence one per wing, not just centerline.

drop tanks under wings are smaller than the one under the body

 

[Hack-Hook]

Phoneix is a mute point , the missile have a very specific needs and only two airplane in world or exactly two RADAR in the world can guide it
AN/AWG-9 and AN/APG-71 .and those radars are exclusive to F11b and F-14

 

[Hack-Hook]

What does that mean? focus on the points I made. F-4 upgrade to 3.5-4.0 gen combat suite within the framework of Project "Dowran" was real and it somehow fell through. IRIAF is responsible because it was their need and they failed to end it. If they get less budget then whose responsibility it is to fight for the budget ? We only have physical evidence in form of pics by pro photographers that handful of few aircrafts wer upgraded, not the whole 5 squadrons as was planned. It could have built heavy strike capabilities for IRIAF with BVR engagement options on a large platform that can attack and defend itself. Imagine that you have 5 squadrons of a fast, powerful jet armed with 4 x BVR PL-12 + 4 WVR missiles, all the while same aircraft can also deliver long-range ground attack missiles. JL-10A or KLJ-7A both fit perfectly inside F-4E nose. JL-10A is more suitable for the ground attack which IRIAF has been using F-4E/D for a long time. The same radar allegedly came from the Iranian donation of AWG-9 of F-14 to China ... look at the confidence PLAAF and PLANAF have in it that they use like close 22 squadrons of JH-7A which operates the same combat suite. ..... but the project fell through, just like how F-14AM conversions, Saeghe/Kowsar fell through.

don't change the argument you claimed IRGC is better , and IRIAF must be handed over to IRGCAF , I pointed to you IRGCAF with its massive Budget Disparity compared to IRIAF actually provided less spectacular result.
you gave the money to airforce and those upgrade you want will happen . you don't gave them money and only 1 or 2 airplanes see the upgrade . and no its not airforce problem that they don't receive the needed money its the the one who write the budget ,for them airforce have very low priority , and IRGC disportionately high priority.
otherwise bavar-373 and Also Sayyad -4 missile realized after the gave enough money to defense ministry for it

 

[Hack-Hook]

Bavar-373

not IRGC,

launched an SLV

launched a satellite on a missile that was twice the size of the missile that civilian agency used more than 10 year ago to launch heavier satellite

fired long range CMs

again defense ministry have longer range cruise missiles

inducted UCAVs

well again defence ministry have longer range suicide uav, have UAVs with 2-3 the speed of what IRGC have and have UAV's that have 5 time the carrying capabilities of what IRGC have

inducted a whole new squadron of upgraded Su-22 which can now fire long-range Cruise missiles.

as i said 70's technology on 60's plane ask Pakistani and Indian members and they tell you how it will fare against f-16 and JF-17

IRIAF merger with IRGC-AF will only benefit IRIAF, not the other way around.

nonsense and come from lack of knowledge

 

[Sineva]

Well a quick look on Wikipedia will give you the following info:

Combat radius (20 min reserve): 120 nmi (140 mi; 220 km) with 2x Sidewinders + 5,200 lb (2,400 kg) ordnance, with 5 minutes combat at max power at sea level

The Phoenix weights approx 500 kg or 1000 lbs, half of what is stated above.

So with two sidewinders and a Phoenix you should get atleast 300 km and keep in mind the reverse engineered Iranian variants, their airframe is built from lighter synthetics like carbon fiber. The info from above is for 1970s 1 seat variants. So realistically the range will increase to likely 400 km or more no ?

However a Phoenix missile and modifications to the front nose cone for a larger radar may not even be necessary. Look at this tidbit from the Wikipedia F-5 page

AA-8 Aphid, AA-10 Alamo, AA-11 Archer and other Russian/Chinese AAMs (Iranian ver.)

The AA-10 Alamo has a range of 40-170 km depending on the variant.

I'm not sure which variant Iran has to mount on the F-5 but realistically the F-5 with modern radar and avionics is alot more capable than 1970s variants.

No matter what I believe that Iran should keep this platform in its inventory. Iran can build these for a few million a piece.

They're easy and extremely cheap to maintain. 4 can fit in a 737 if taken apart. They're perfect for assymetrical or swarm tactics and honestly If nothing else stripped down variants make for a decent trainer.

I would respectfully advise you to take a lot of the things on wiki with a grain of salt unless these are confirmed on reputable specialist military sites,especially when it comes to unconfirmed claims about military matters such as these.Case in point being the claim of the aa10 and aa11 being operational on the f5.Now there was an attempt by the iriaf back in the 90s to integrate the aa10/r27 with the f14s awg 9,but as with most of these af "programs" one honestly doesnt know if it was a serious program that failed for lack of.......something [likely technology,but who knows?],or was it just basically a propaganda effort only?.
The only one of those missiles in the wiki entry that we know has been carried by the f5 was the r60/aa8,tho how often this was done operationally...who knows.

The aim54 was only half of the weapons system that made the f14 such a lethal machine,the other half was the awg9 radar,and unless you have something comparable to use the aim54 with,well then frankly its just a waste of time and a missile.Light fighters simply arent built to use heavy weight a2a missiles.
The only a2a missile combo that would make ANY sense [imho] on a [modernised] f5 would be the r77/r73 or the chinese sd10b/pl10.

I mean if you`re seriously going to consider aim54s on the f5 then why not simply just go the whole hog and go for the r-37m instead..........

Come on people,this is just starting to get embarrassing.Lets knock it off,eh?...please?.

 

[Hack-Hook]

I do not have to imagine, IRGC initially had no large budget, they started as a political militia with no infrastructure of their own while artesh and other conventional branches had Shahi era structure in place. Who ended up as what is in front of us.

again no knowledge , from start IRGC had a ministry of its own , and many of army equipment handed to them . and in war they were good as crack forces , only could attack but when we wanted to keep a captured land they were virtually useless and we had to rely on army for that

Modern-day airforces are reducing the types of planes they operate to save maintenance and operational costs. I gave Israeli and Turkish examples. In future, we might even see powerful AF's like Russia operating only flankers (basically they are all Su-27 variants) with few Mig-31BM. IRIAF needs to do same.

show me a modern airforce that only use one airplane , do you even knew the difference on price tag when you fly 1 hour with Su-30 while flying 1 hours with Mig-35 while flying one hour with F-5.
do you knew why USA still keep A-10 operational despite no one in congress like them and tried to cut their budget ?

4 x Su-30SM or Su35S
4-5 x F-14AM

Same type of airplane

5 x F-4E/D (dowran upgraded to JH-7A or J-8IIM standards)
3 x Su-24MK (KH-31 armed)

again same type of mission

2 x Mig-29 SMT (half a dozen new airframes and rest upgraded with RVV-AE)

what for ?, replace them with something that can also play the role of those F-4s perhaps J-10c
you talk about reducing aircraft type but don't do that in your ideal airforce

 

[Natalya Shadova]

Just stop talking.

SARH isn’t some magical radar you just shoot and forget and it finds the target by telling it “go look over there somewhere”

A Phoenix does not have unlimited fuel and if your target is traveling supersonic you need to PINPOINT where it will be when Missile intersects. That means it need guidance by a powerful radar because when your enemy is traveling 1200+ KM/HR even being wrong by a 10 seconds means KMs difference in error. So when the Phoenix does its death shot up into upper atmosphere and aims its SARH downward it will FIND NOTHING and then run out of fuel and self destruct.

This is why the SARH equipped 3rd Khordad kill of Global Hawk was so impressive because it used EO/IO to transmit to a passive radar deep in Iran which then found the target. It then fed the Missile the approximate coordinates of intercept instead of using the active radar on 3rd Khordad which would have illuminated the target and warned the Global Hawk it was being targeted. In which Global Hawk would have activated its potent ECW system and tried to jam the signals. Missile then was fired and was fed updated guidance by EO-IO and said passive radar. It activated its SARH (pictures of the ascent in upper atmosphere can be seen online) and then was able to locate the global hawk.


So no, your super F-5 would get torched by F-16, F-22, F-35, Rafael, Typhoon, etc. they would all detect your F-5 much further out than 100KM. Furthermore F-22 and F-35 wouldn’t even be detected by F-5 weak radar and F-16 could likely jam it. Since you strapped 3 Fakours to it, it would light up like a damn Christmas tree on every radar from Tehran to Dubai. You just cooked the pilot.

Lastly you never build a plane AROUND WEAPONS. You build a plane around operational need. Thus building a heavily modified brand new F-5 just so it can carry 2-3 Fakour 90’s is a violation of basic laws of military planning.

If your operational need is to defend the airspace and fight other air superiority fighters as well as bombers then you need a air superiority fighter. You do not take a light aircraft/CAS/Trainer and TURN it into an air superiority fighter.

That’s like trying to win a formula 1 tournament with a modified Peykan. There are classes of aircraft for a reason.

The MAIN reason Iran plays around with F-5 is because it’s cheap to play around with and it’s engines and avionics are 60 years old. It has little to no titanium in its frame.

Iran cannot build a modern fighter because engines are not powerful enough, avionics is way behind, and most importantly every major fighter built today and ones from the past (F-14), have high titanium airframes made to be strong and withstand the stress. Iran currently does not have the infrastructure in place to build titanium airframes. It simply has not yet invested the substantial capital required to build out a supply chain for a modern air superiority fighter.

So no you haven’t found the holy grail, there are 10+ Non world power countries (India, Pakistan, Brazil, Turkey, South Korea, Japan, Greece, Sweden, etc) that could have built a overhauled F-5 copy and no one did. There’s a reason for it.

Did you miss the whole part about replacing the engines and radars

 

[TheImmortal]

Did you miss the whole part about replacing the engines and radars

Replace the engine with what? The Owj which is the engine that is in the F-5 to begin with?

Replace radar with what? Iran doesn’t produce any modern long range 4++ or 5th Gen radar.

This is SU-35 radar

This is F-22 radar

This is F-35 radar

You will not compete with these radars using a F-5 modernized radar. Not happening.

F-22/F-35/F-15 will consistently out detect an super F-5 carrying 2 tanks and 3 Fakour 90’s on its pylons.

 

[sha ah]

This is a better picture of the SU-35 radar

Yes of course against the best that the US has to offer, of course Iran can't compete. However with a modern radar and AWACS support, it's still decent. Aside from BVR, F-5s can also fly low and be used for strike missions or a stripped down version is good for training.

For the price that Iran can build the F-5, considering how reliable it is, how cheap and easy it is to maintain, it's still worth it for Iran as a secondary light multirole fighter.

This is a new radar kit for the F-5 from this website: https://duotechservices.com/aircraft-radar-system-f-5-radar-upgrade

Sure it's not comparable to what the F-35, F-22, F-16 have but I mean it's a huge improvement over this

Comparing the F-5 to the F-22 or F-35 is silly. Obviously it can't compare with those platforms and it's not a frontline fighter but for a few million a piece, it's a great trainer and secondary light multirole jet.




Taiwan suspends F-16 fleet combat training after jet crashes into sea

Taiwan suspends F-16 fleet combat training after jet crashes into sea | CNN

Taiwan's air force on Tuesday suspended combat training for its F-16 fleet after a recently upgraded model of the fighter jet crashed into the sea in the latest of a series of accidents.

www.cnn.com

 

[SalarHaqq]

Honestly there's nothing special about IRGC. They just get a massive budget compared to the regular army and other agencies.

Some would argue they're more motivated and that may be true but the disparity in budgets can't be discounted.

Recently they were able to put a satellite into space when the Iranian space agency failed. This gave the IRGC an image boost and people were saying "hey look they can get things done when others cant"

However looking into the details, the payloads of their satellite was a puny 12 to 24 kg. The Omid satellite from 2009 was around 24 kg and the space agency can has since placed 50 kg satellites into space (like the Fajr or Navid satellites for example)

The space agency has had some failures recently but they are striving to put a 350 kg payload into space and with each failure they have progressed through various stages. Last time only the final stage failed to reach the required speed.

It was not my intent to discuss whether there is something special or not about the IRGC, nor to engage into comparisons with other institutions. Much rather, I raised the question whether or not new fighter jet acquisitions from either Russia and/or China might in fact be intended for the IRGCAF. And if consequently, the IRIAF will be left to fade out once its legacy inventory is no longer able to be refurbished. Personally I do see several potential long term benefits in this.

One recurrent counter-argument is that of systemic institutional and doctrinal inertia which would render impossible a transfer of the center of gravity of Iran's air force from the IRIAF towards the IRGCAF. But as I observed above, institutional inertia is a reality however it can be overcome in 43 years provided minimal political will.

It's like the often peddled myth that IRIAF personnel and officers tend to be more distant vis a vis the revolutionary establishment. Again, who is naive enough to believe that in 43 years, a political system - no matter its nature, would fail to replace personnel as needed in a strategic branch of the military..? Fact is that IRIAF pilots and commanders are surely every bit as hezbollāhi and velāyatmadār as their brothers in the IRGCAF.

However, for certain organizational and other reasons, I would welcome some gradual merger or take over by the IRGCAF. One of these being, for instance, that Sepah is particularly shielded from the whims of changing governmental administrations as far as its budget is concerned. Therefore, the more areas of activity the IRGC gets involved in, the more we can count on progress in said areas independently of politicking and fluctuations in financing. The reduction of the ISA's budget and the subsequent slowing down of Iran's space program under Rohani is a good example of why and how Sepah can compensate for relative setbacks like these.

This said, to address your remark: the IRGC definitely is a unique type of a military and paramilitary corps. Actually its area of competence as per the Constitution reaches well beyond military affairs, since it is tasked with combating any threat to the Islamic Revolution, knowing that these threats are multi-pronged and located in a multitude of realms: social, demographic, cultural, economic, political, diplomatic, cyberspace, public health, soft war, social engineering and so on. Hence why the IRGC has a legal mandate to operate in all these fields simultaneously, hence its specificity. And thus the IRGC has no proper equivalent outside of Iran.

And as for how the IRGC has fared so far when compared to other institutions, the realization that Sepah appears to get things done in a particularly systematic and methodical way, that they are consistent in their mid- to long-term planning, that their procedural chain from design concepts to mass-produced items is solid, did not just dawn on people after they successfully carried out their first satellite launch - this became obvious right from the early 2000's and the astounding development of Iran's ballistic missile arsenal, one of the country's key assets of deterrence against military aggression by the zio-American empire.

Another point that makes Sepah stand out is how proficient it has shown itself to be in doctrinal and technological innovation. In thinking outside the box, adapting resources, weapons and tactics to Iran's asymmetric needs, in completely doing away with conformist thinking as well as with any attempts to try and reach a semblance of parity with Iran's powerful foes in the latters' own playing field. There's little doubt that the IRGC, more than other involved parties (whose contribution I certainly do not wish to deny) has been the central driving force behind Iran's thorough shift towards an asymmetrical type of reasoning in the military arena.

Hence why it is also the IRGC that is focused on, demonized and sanctioned the most by the existential enemies of Iran.

- - - - -

launched a satellite on a missile that was twice the size of the missile that civilian agency used more than 10 year ago to launch heavier satellite

Obviously, this is to say that the IRGC's SLV is capable of placing into orbit greater payloads than what it did during that launch. Furthermore the entire operation was aimed to demonstrate technologies as much as to fire up a new satellite. Sepah's SLV with its solid fuel and thrust vectored stage(s) is also more advanced. Sepah's launching method and protocol allow for better security against potential sabotage attempts by the enemy; as a matter of fact, Trump didn't have the opportunity to parade silly satellite pictures of the IRGC-conducted SLV launch like he could do with the failed Space Agency launch.

So here the IRGC's achievement is undeniable. With regards to space launches, Sepah literally came out of the blue, surprised everyone with unsuspected capabilities and hitherto unseen technologies, succeded on their first try.

 

[Natalya Shadova]

Replace the engine with what? The Owj which is the engine that is in the F-5 to begin with?

Replace radar with what? Iran doesn’t produce any modern long range 4++ or 5th Gen radar.

This is SU-35 radar
View attachment 808392
This is F-22 radar
View attachment 808393
This is F-35 radar
View attachment 808395

You will not compete with these radars using a F-5 modernized radar. Not happening.

F-22/F-35/F-15 will consistently out detect an super F-5 carrying 2 tanks and 3 Fakour 90’s on its pylons.

For engine, Jahesh-700 as stated in this debate before. Secondly, Iran could development a radar, of if it procures SU-35S, make a radar based on it's

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

The Kowsar uses advanced radar!!


Radar Griffin has a range of 70-90 km for the Kowsar combat aircraft Is capable of detecting air and ground targets, as well as synchronizing with radar air-to-air missiles

 

[drmeson]

The Kowsar uses advanced radar!!


Radar Griffin has a range of 70-90 km for the Kowsar combat aircraft Is capable of detecting air and ground targets, as well as synchronizing with radar air-to-air missiles

View attachment 808483

Highly likely that this radar that Kowsar was fitted with was Chinese KLJ-6F with 86+ km detection range, as it can be inside an F-5E/F cone. It can enable borderline BVR combat capability. The same company that makes KLJ-6 series also makes far better KLJ-7 with bit larger diameter which is why they tried to enlarge the nosecone of Saeghe 3-7366 to give it a better combat suite. KLJ-7 from NRIET also has an AESA version with BVR capability with PL-12. What happened with the 3-7366 redesigned nosecone is mystery because later Saeghe-II or Kowsar did not show any signs of massive nose size changes, which shows the reluctance to move forward to larger radars.

In a fantasy world where IRIAF gets serious planners, KLJ-7A AESA carrying Kowsar with all other avionics they showed will result in a 4.0 generation fighter. If armed with PL-12A and HOBS WVR weaponry like R-73M or PL-8 from China, can be a very deadly fighter but only in close quarters. Iranian geography is not suitable for these midget jets like F-5, F-7 ... They can do far better stuff on larger platforms like F-4E/D but we can not produce their airframes because of alloy problems. IRIAF is in dilemma.

 

[sha ah]

Yes Sepah's first SLV attempt was a success, but looking at the big picture, the satellite they put into space weighted a measly 12-24 kg and was pretty much a small camera or webcam in space. Iran's first ever satellite, Omid from 2009 weighed 24 kgs and since then Iran has been able to successfully place 50 kg satellites into space (Fajr, Navid)

Yes the Iranian space agency has experienced some failures but you have to give them credit, they are trying to place a 350 kg payload into space. They're going forward, not backwards and the fact that they are trying to leapfrog so ambitiously to such a payload is commendable. Especially considering that Rohani slashed their budget.

Yes many of their recent launches have failed but with each successive launch, they have progressed in the various, subsequent stages. The only reason the last launch failed was because the final stage did not reach the required speed. However they did get close and previously they had issues with prior stages which they have now overcome.

Do you recall a few years ago when North Korea's missile launches were all failing one after another. At one point something like half a dozen or more failed one after another. Many in the west dismissed them and laughed. Well nobody is laughing now are they ?

Also look at how many times Space X launches have failed in the past. Recently, 4 US hypersonic tests in a row failed. Meanwhile China has already deployed hypersonic missiles on mass. Russia is close behind and North Korea keeps conducting successful tests.

The USA, the worlds sole super power, on the other hand keeps failing. How then has China been able to successfully add hypersonic weapons to its arsenal so rapidly ? The answer is simple. It's because in the last 5 years the Chinese conducted hundreds of tests while the US only conducted 5 tests.

When it comes to rocket launches, failed attempts are a part of the game. As long as knowledge is attained from each attempt and progress is made, then in the big picture the launch is actually a success.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sepah's launching method and protocol allow for better security against potential sabotage attempts by the enemy; as a matter of fact, Trump didn't have the opportunity to parade silly satellite pictures of the IRGC-conducted SLV launch like he could do with the failed Space Agency launch.

So here the IRGC's achievement is undeniable. With regards to space launches, Sepah literally came out of the blue, surprised everyone with unsuspected capabilities and hitherto unseen technologies, succeded on their first try.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It was not my intent to discuss whether there is something special or not about the IRGC, nor to engage into comparisons with other institutions. Much rather, I raised the question whether or not new fighter jet acquisitions from either Russia and/or China might in fact be intended for the IRGCAF. And if consequently, the IRIAF will be left to fade out once its legacy inventory is no longer able to be refurbished. Personally I do see several potential long term benefits in this.

One recurrent counter-argument is that of systemic institutional and doctrinal inertia which would render impossible a transfer of the center of gravity of Iran's air force from the IRIAF towards the IRGCAF. But as I observed above, institutional inertia is a reality however it can be overcome in 43 years provided minimal political will.

It's like the often peddled myth that IRIAF personnel and officers tend to be more distant vis a vis the revolutionary establishment. Again, who is naive enough to believe that in 43 years, a political system - no matter its nature, would fail to replace personnel as needed in a strategic branch of the military..? Fact is that IRIAF pilots and commanders are surely every bit as hezbollāhi and velāyatmadār as their brothers in the IRGCAF.

However, for certain organizational and other reasons, I would welcome some gradual merger or take over by the IRGCAF. One of these being, for instance, that Sepah is particularly shielded from the whims of changing governmental administrations as far as its budget is concerned. Therefore, the more areas of activity the IRGC gets involved in, the more we can count on progress in said areas independently of politicking and fluctuations in financing. The reduction of the ISA's budget and the subsequent slowing down of Iran's space program under Rohani is a good example of why and how Sepah can compensate for relative setbacks like these.

This said, to address your remark: the IRGC definitely is a unique type of a military and paramilitary corps. Actually its area of competence as per the Constitution reaches well beyond military affairs, since it is tasked with combating any threat to the Islamic Revolution, knowing that these threats are multi-pronged and located in a multitude of realms: social, demographic, cultural, economic, political, diplomatic, cyberspace, public health, soft war, social engineering and so on. Hence why the IRGC has a legal mandate to operate in all these fields simultaneously, hence its specificity. And thus the IRGC has no proper equivalent outside of Iran.

And as for how the IRGC has fared so far when compared to other institutions, the realization that Sepah appears to get things done in a particularly systematic and methodical way, that they are consistent in their mid- to long-term planning, that their procedural chain from design concepts to mass-produced items is solid, did not just dawn on people after they successfully carried out their first satellite launch - this became obvious right from the early 2000's and the astounding development of Iran's ballistic missile arsenal, one of the country's key assets of deterrence against military aggression by the zio-American empire.

Another point that makes Sepah stand out is how proficient it has shown itself to be in doctrinal and technological innovation. In thinking outside the box, adapting resources, weapons and tactics to Iran's asymmetric needs, in completely doing away with conformist thinking as well as with any attempts to try and reach a semblance of parity with Iran's powerful foes in the latters' own playing field. There's little doubt that the IRGC, more than other involved parties (whose contribution I certainly do not wish to deny) has been the central driving force behind Iran's thorough shift towards an asymmetrical type of reasoning in the military arena.

Hence why it is also the IRGC that is focused on, demonized and sanctioned the most by the existential enemies of Iran.

- - - - -



Obviously, this is to say that the IRGC's SLV is capable of placing into orbit greater payloads than what it did during that launch. Furthermore the entire operation was aimed to demonstrate technologies as much as to fire up a new satellite. Sepah's SLV with its solid fuel and thrust vectored stage(s) is also more advanced. Sepah's launching method and protocol allow for better security against potential sabotage attempts by the enemy; as a matter of fact, Trump didn't have the opportunity to parade silly satellite pictures of the IRGC-conducted SLV launch like he could do with the failed Space Agency launch.

So here the IRGC's achievement is undeniable. With regards to space launches, Sepah literally came out of the blue, surprised everyone with unsuspected capabilities and hitherto unseen technologies, succeded on their first try.

 

[sha ah]