IRIAF | News and Discussions

[OldTwilight]

Iran reverse engineer even a 50 year old RD-33 would be momumental task, let alone anything else.

Well , IMO we shouldn't try to reverse engineer jet engine , we should just analyse them and try to design our own , start with simple engine then go for more complex ... after all the material and process of building are the critical part here ....

side note 50 years ago there weren't any software and software simulation and engine like RD-33 , J-85 , j-79 are belong to those era .... we should be able to desgin more simple and optimized engine than above engines ... especially J-85 ...

 

[Hack-Hook]

side note 50 years ago there weren't any software and software simulation and engine like RD-33 , J-85 , j-79 are belong to those era .... we should be able to desgin more simple and optimized engine than above engines ... especially J-85 ...

come on there were software even before that
Germany built its first computer between 1936-1938 it called Z1 in 1939 they built Z2 and in 1941 they built Z3 first functional programmable fully automatic digital computer .
its the spec.

• Average calculation speed: addition – 0.8 seconds, multiplication – 3 seconds
• Arithmetic unit: Binary floating point, 22 bit, add, subtract, multiply, divide, square root
• Data memory: 64 words with a length of 22 bits
• Program memory: Punched celluloid tape
• Input: Decimal floating point numbers
• Output: Decimal floating point numbers
• Input and Output was facilitated by a terminal, with a special keyboard for input and a row of lamps to show results
• Elements: Around 2,000 relays (1,400 for the memory)
• Frequency: 5.3 Herts
• Power consumption: Around 4,000 watts
• Weight: Around 1 tonne (2,200 lb)

In 1943 Britain built Colossus the first Automatic Electric Digital programmable computer
but the cornerstone on Programing and Computing was ENIAC ,it was built in USA in 1945 and was the first General Purpose Programmable electronic computer. It was Turing-complete, digital and able to solve "a large class of numerical problems" through reprogramming. (it was used for building Hydrogen Bomb)


in 1948 Manchester Baby was built , it was the first computer that used stored programs and can be said used Software in its modern Definition it was in 1949 developed in to Manchester Mark 1 or MADM the first practical stored-program computers.
so you can say thy used software in modern term of it since 1949 and ind since 1951 we had A-0 first functional compiler that in 1953 evolved into A-2 the first free and open source Software .
by the way since 1959 we Have COBOL the oldest programing language still in use and the grand daddy of all modern programing compilers .

well there goes my concise and practically useless lecture on history of computer and programing

 

[OldTwilight]

come on there were software even before that
Germany built its first computer between 1936-1938 it called Z1 in 1939 they built Z2 and in 1941 they built Z3 first functional programmable fully automatic digital computer .
its the spec.


In 1943 Britain built Colossus the first Automatic Electric Digital programmable computer
but the cornerstone on Programing and Computing was ENIAC ,it was built in USA in 1945 and was the first General Purpose Programmable electronic computer. It was Turing-complete, digital and able to solve "a large class of numerical problems" through reprogramming. (it was used for building Hydrogen Bomb)


in 1948 Manchester Baby was built , it was the first computer that used stored programs and can be said used Software in its modern Definition it was in 1949 developed in to Manchester Mark 1 or MADM the first practical stored-program computers.
so you can say thy used software in modern term of it since 1949 and ind since 1951 we had A-0 first functional compiler that in 1953 evolved into A-2 the first free and open source Software .
by the way since 1959 we Have COBOL the oldest programing language still in use and the grand daddy of all modern programing compilers .

well there goes my concise and practically useless lecture on history of computer and programing

I'm programer and I knew these but were anything like CAD software back then !? could they made software simulation for 3d model engine and visually see how its works !?
were fast speed video recorder which could assist them to what really going happen !?
were any heat video recorder to show them what is going in the engine !?


maybe there was these kind of things but I'm sure all of those tools could be in primitive state ....


we are simply over complicated things and put mental barrier about this kind of issue .... just put money , have open mind and good and knowledge able manager and engineers and you will get what you want , specially since jet engine are 70 years old technology and we have access to working one ....


as a programmer if I want to write OS , I won't try to reverse engineering current OS , but I will write it from scratch because it is easier ....

 

[Hack-Hook]

I'm programer and I knew these but were anything like CAD software back then !? could they made software simulation for 3d model engine and visually see how its works !?
were fast speed video recorder which could assist them to what really going happen !?
were any heat video recorder to show them what is going in the engine !?


maybe there was these kind of things but I'm sure all of those tools could be in primitive state ....


we are simply over complicated things and put mental barrier about this kind of issue .... just put money , have open mind and good and knowledge able manager and engineers and you will get what you want , specially since jet engine are 70 years old technology and we have access to working one ....

you see there were computers they were programing them but certainly they were a lot more primitive than today but consider this . Z3 from 1941 could do multiplication in 3 sec and addition in 0.8 sec then in 4 years ENIAC could perform 5000 operation per second now consider it how much faster computers have been in 1968 when they began work on RD-33 and how it help the designing process .

 

[OldTwilight]

you see there were computers they were programing them but certainly they were a lot more primitive than today but consider this . Z3 from 1941 could do multiplication in 3 sec and addition in 0.8 sec then in 4 years ENIAC could perform 5000 operation per second now consider it how much faster computers have been in 1968 when they began work on RD-33 and how it help the designing process .

the point is that some times , there is not any shortcut , you have reach your goal from well-known way ... if you try to use short-cut you will just get away from your goal and lose time and motivation ....

IMO , Jet Engine are like this , you have to do actual work and you cant get short cut ....

 

[Hack-Hook]

the point is that some times , there is not any shortcut , you have reach your goal from well-known way ... if you try to use short-cut you will just get away from your goal and lose time and motivation ....

IMO , Jet Engine are like this , you have to do actual work and you cant get short cut ....

the problem with JET Engine is that you can't just reverse engineer it , even if its from 70 years ago. you must knew what material they exactly used and even if you knew that you must knew how they built those materials and even if you knew that you must knew in what situation they worked on those materials , it very much affect the reliability of engine , how long it work and how much you can put it under stress .
it really matter if you can heat gases up to 1400c or 1100c at the intake .

 

[aryobarzan]

Few point:
1- Composition (elements and percentages) of any material (alloys) can be precisely established if you have Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM) which I believe does exits in some of the universities in Iran.
2- Basic designs are already known..detailed designs can be optimised using CAD/Simulation software packages (CAD and simulation well established in Iran by now).
3- Engine test cells (all the sensors and transducers and data analysis)..If they did J-85 they can do for any other engine)
4- Foundry and fabrication of alloys needed for combustion chambers and Turbine blades and machining them (do not know..out of my league.but MAPNA makes these for gas turbines can the process be used !!!! do not know). However Iran has tackled more complicated issues than this it is nuclear program so within Iran's capability..

So WTF..what is the hold up...(may be $$$$$$$)..

by the way.. Iran should know that buying any 4th, 5th or 6th Gen aircraft from Russia or China would have he issue of (DISABLE/KILL ) switch software implemented by these plane manufacturers. Unless they give you the source code (which no way in hell they will) you have to live with the knowledge that one day IVAN will make a deal with Israhell and suddenly your aircraft engines do not start on the tarmac or flame out while flying .. If you ever wonder why no Saudi F-15 or F-16 has been able defect to Iran or any other place ...you have the answer.

 

[WinterNights]

Who says Iran already has not reverse engineered RD-33 and managed to make a few "prototypes"? Obviously they will spend years testing it before starting to use the engine and unveiling it. When they revealed the OWJ, it has already gone through all its testing.

 

[aryobarzan]

Who says Iran already has not reverse engineered RD-33 and managed to make a few "prototypes"? Obviously they will spend years testing it before starting to use the engine and unveiling it. When they revealed the OWJ, it has already gone through all its testing.

I be happy if they already have done..as you said no reason why they should not be able to.

 

[foxhoundbis]

I be happy if they already have done..as you said no reason why they should not be able to.

I asked this question above, because I heard in this forum, and in Farsnews agency more than 2 years , that Iran is able to produce "Heavy Turbojet Engines "
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13950623001151
I thought immediately to the RD-33 because it is the easiest task, and Iran can afford to reverse engineered, and can overcome this challenge. After all iranians succeeded by mass producing the Saeqeh. Iran is able to design its own fighter Kowsar, able to produce its own jet engine OWJ-85, able to produce its own aviionics. The Kowsar now is mass produced, then Iranian aerospace industry obtained precious experience, well why cannot they succeed by reproducing the RD-33 ?

 

[scythian500]

Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM) which I believe does exits in some of the universities in Iran.

There are lots of companies in Iran building and exporting these microscopes and they produce much better ones these days... Check Made in Iran thread... lots of them there..

 

[Sineva]

I asked this question above, because I heard in this forum, and in Farsnews agency more than 2 years , that Iran is able to produce "Heavy Turbojet Engines "
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13950623001151
I thought immediately to the RD-33 because it is the easiest task, and Iran can afford to reverse engineered, and can overcome this challenge. After all iranians succeeded by mass producing the Saeqeh. Iran is able to design its own fighter Kowsar, able to produce its own jet engine OWJ-85, able to produce its own aviionics. The Kowsar now is mass produced, then Iranian aerospace industry obtained precious experience, well why cannot they succeed by reproducing the RD-33 ?

I think the question that you really should asking is what would be the actual need for iran to indigenously produce the rd33.Because apart from the mig29 fleet the only other use for an rd33 would be if the iriaf was going to modernise its mirage f1 fleet to something along the lines of the south african f1az and fit a modified rd33 into the airframe,and of course theres no sign of anything like that.The only other option would be an indigenous program to produce a light fighter along the lines of a jf17 or a f20,and realistically theres no sign of that sort of thing either,apart from some desktop models that I think dated back to the early 90s when iran was supposedly working with russian design bureaus to come up with new fighter designs[that went nowhere of course].
Now I have little doubt that iran can and does produce many of the components that it needs for the rd33s that it has in service such as hot sections or compressor blades/stages,but realistically theres just no reason for iran to spend the considerable amounts of time,money and resources that would be needed to reverse/reengineer,not to mention productionising,the entire engine unless it actually has the airframes to put them in.

 

[Hack-Hook]

1- Composition (elements and percentages) of any material (alloys) can be precisely established if you have Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM) which I believe does exits in some of the universities in Iran.
2- Basic designs are already known..detailed designs can be optimised using CAD/Simulation software packages (CAD and simulation well established in Iran by now).
3- Engine test cells (all the sensors and transducers and data analysis)..If they did J-85 they can do for any other engine)
4- Foundry and fabrication of alloys needed for combustion chambers and Turbine blades and machining them (do not know..out of my league.but MAPNA makes these for gas turbines can the process be used !!!! do not know). However Iran has tackled more complicated issues than this it is nuclear program so within Iran's capability..

not so easy , even if you knew the composition , you must know how to build them , exactly in what pressure the mix must be made how to cool it , in what temprature built the alloy and in what order made the mix and lots other factors.

also Mapna turbines are working in a lot lower temperature and pressure . as i said it make alot of difference if yhe Gases at the inlet of the engine or heated to 1000 Degree Celsius or 1500

 

[aryobarzan]

not so easy , even if you knew the composition , you must know how to build them , exactly in what pressure the mix must be made how to cool it , in what temprature built the alloy and in what order made the mix and lots other factors.

also Mapna turbines are working in a lot lower temperature and pressure . as i said it make alot of difference if yhe Gases at the inlet of the engine or heated to 1000 Degree Celsius or 1500

I understand and and agree that the this knowledge is not provided to Iran on a piece of a paper, however that is the job of R&D labs to find out (which Iran has many). My point is that if you read the history of Iran nuclear development you will find out that this country solved much more complicated technical issues. Just keep in mind in nuclear Tech you work in extremely corrosive and radioactive environment with requirement for far more specialized materials (e.g. zirconium tubes) just one example (west never imagined Iran can do Zirconium).
Turbine blades exposed to extreme Temps is a challenge but not beyond capabilities in iran.

Just a side note to this: I once saw a program on TV about Viking swords and why it was so superior to other swords..the reason was special steel. after doing SEM analysis on some of these sword they found out it has special type of steel not available any where in europe. so they went to next possible place..middle east ..they discovered the only place that such a steel was made was...you guessed it PERSIA. It was Persian steel that viking were using to make their famous swords with... just something to lighten up the mood..lol

 

[Mithridates]

pressurizing suits for our pilots for very high altitude flights. out mig-29s and su-24s are able to fly really high to avoid getting hit by SAMs.

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