IRIAF | News and Discussions

[sahureka2]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1559132753697857542

apparently the trainer Yasin is continually proposed ,suggests that they strongly believe in this project

 

[TheImmortal]

apparently the trainer Yasin is continually proposed ,suggests that they strongly believe in this project
View attachment 870961

Just like National helicopter project they are likely looking for a partner nation for tech cooperation or a major order.

The story of Yasin is a microcosm of what has plagued IRIAF projects.

I am curious where IRGC is with their CAS project they announced a while back.

 

[AmirPatriot]

Looks like Mehdi picked up your F-14 analysis or maybe the timing was a coincidence

By the watermark, it first got picked up by a telegram channel, then Mehdi took it from there xD. I found the original on Instagram.

Btw I still had more to say regarding the discussion with drmeson but I could tell it was just going to be too long.

 

[sanel1412]

you see why invest on yasin while kowsar can fulfill that role a lot better . just answer that to me

Kowsar is supersonic fighter Jet... Yes It is used for pilot training but not for what you think.. It is used for pilots already trained and serve,Yasin would be used in Flight school for pilots that finish basic training...you need Something Like Yasin ,also subsonic aircrafts with lower minimal speed better fit CAS role, and Yasin is single engine cheap aircraft, hour of Flight cost less, maintaince also...Kowsar is completely different level

 

[drmeson]

By the watermark, it first got picked up by a telegram channel, then Mehdi took it from there xD. I found the original on Instagram.

Btw I still had more to say regarding the discussion with drmeson but I could tell it was just going to be too long.

The pic is quite old. I first saw it on a Insta channel.

Offcourse, we can have our discussion continue any time. When I return home tonight, I will try to re-read some of the information on F-14AM upgradations again. I will post it here.

 

[drmeson]

Kowsar is supersonic fighter Jet... Yes It is used for pilot training but not for what you think.. It is used for pilots already trained and serve,Yasin would be used in Flight school for pilots that finish basic training...you need Something Like Yasin ,also subsonic aircrafts with lower minimal speed better fit CAS role, and Yasin is single engine cheap aircraft, hour of Flight cost less, maintaince also...Kowsar is completely different level

What will be the difference between flying a Kowsar-I and Yasin AT? Apparently, both use the same OWJ turbojets except Yasin has non-afterburning ones. Kowsar has an FBW system and is a proven airframe while Yasin is a novel design that can be anything.

................

Unrelated but I am gonna write it here, Currently IRIAF has the following resources in the Tiger fleet, I was thinking about how can they be utilized to the max.

1 x Azarakhsh
5 x Saegheh-I
1 x Saegheh-II
4 x Kowsar-I + additional 14-20 seen in HESA (total 18-24)
35 x F-5E
14 x F-5F
14 x F-5B Simorgh

So that brings us to a total of 80 airframes among which 4 are built from scratch inside Iran. If all of the F-5BSimorgh + A/R/E/F models + Azarakhsh are dismantled to create a repository of parts for a new assembly, this can be a very useful stopgap fleet until (a) Some foreign 4++ fighter is procured (b) Saegheh III / Kowsar II / Azarakhsh III emerges

Something like this can be formed:

12 x Kowsar-I Trainers replacing the current Simorghs, Yasin project (waste of $)
6 x Saeghe-I/II E-warfare platforms with Radars, ECM/ECCM+Jammers, RWRs, Tactical DL
62 x Kowsar-I Fighters with FBW, Radars+ECCM, RWR, Tactical DL

These 68 fighters can form 7-8 fully armed mixed squadrons with F-14AM, MIG-29 9.12 (if upgraded). A total of 130 x 4th generation aircraft.

 

[sanel1412]

What will be the difference between flying a Kowsar-I and Yasin AT? Apparently, both use the same OWJ turbojets except Yasin has non-afterburning ones. Kowsar has an FBW system and is a proven airframe while Yasin is a novel design that can be anything.

................

Unrelated but I am gonna write it here, Currently IRIAF has the following resources in the Tiger fleet, I was thinking about how can they be utilized to the max.

1 x Azarakhsh
5 x Saegheh-I
1 x Saegheh-II
4 x Kowsar-I + additional 14-20 seen in HESA (total 18-24)
35 x F-5E
14 x F-5F
14 x F-5B Simorgh

So that brings us to a total of 80 airframes among which 4 are built from scratch inside Iran. If all of the F-5BSimorgh + A/R/E/F models + Azarakhsh are dismantled to create a repository of parts for a new assembly, this can be a very useful stopgap fleet until (a) Some foreign 4++ fighter is procured (b) Saegheh III / Kowsar II / Azarakhsh III emerges

Something like this can be formed:

12 x Kowsar-I Trainers replacing the current Simorghs, Yasin project (waste of $)
6 x Saeghe-I/II E-warfare platforms with Radars, ECM/ECCM+Jammers, RWRs, Tactical DL
62 x Kowsar-I Fighters with FBW, Radars+ECCM, RWR, Tactical DL

These 68 fighters can form 7-8 fully armed mixed squadrons with F-14AM, MIG-29 9.12 (if upgraded). A total of 130 x 4th generation aircraft.

Cruising speed of F5 and Kowsar is higher than F18 while Yasin is probably half..
Than Price... You must make difference between transition trainers Like Kowsar, FT-7 or Mig 29UB and Advance training aircrafts....it is not even close, you dont put pilot from PC 7 in to supersonic fighter Jet... Yasin Will fill role between

 

[Deino]

The pic is quite old. I first saw it on a Insta channel.

Offcourse, we can have our discussion continue any time. When I return home tonight, I will try to re-read some of the information on F-14AM upgradations again. I will post it here.

Don’t you think we should start a separate thread on this F-14AM and eventual Su-35 discussion since it is a topic on its own and not really IRIAF news related

 

[Hack-Hook]

Kowsar is supersonic fighter Jet... Yes It is used for pilot training but not for what you think.. It is used for pilots already trained and serve,Yasin would be used in Flight school for pilots that finish basic training...you need Something Like Yasin ,also subsonic aircrafts with lower minimal speed better fit CAS role, and Yasin is single engine cheap aircraft, hour of Flight cost less, maintaince also...Kowsar is completely different level

Yasin is dual engine owj.
the difference is the owj that is used in Yasin don't have afterburner installed . so you want subsonic ,use that kowsar , just don't push afterburner switch , or on two sit version of kowsar use not after burning version of owj.

by the way how slow you want to fly ? F-5 stall speed is let just say less than 200km and it actually do the initial flight and climb at speed less than 220km . which is the same as Yasin.

and for training at low speed you have Cessna. an advance trainer needs to be agile
Yasin only in one role is superior to kowsarand that is CAS. because the engine are not adjacent to each other. and guess what , that role can be done far better by army aviation and drones

 

[Hack-Hook]

Cruising speed of F5 and Kowsar is higher than F18 while Yasin is probably half..
Than Price... You must make difference between transition trainers Like Kowsar, FT-7 or Mig 29UB and Advance training aircrafts....it is not even close, you dont put pilot from PC 7 in to supersonic fighter Jet... Yasin Will fill role between

as i said , the cruising speed of F-5 at 36000 feet is 1050km/h that's the highest altitude yasin can reach.
by the way who say Yasin has lower cruise speed , it just can't go supersonic because of its engine . you can install non-after burning version of OWJ on Kowsar-trainer and it also don't go supersonic.

What will be the difference between flying a Kowsar-I and Yasin AT? Apparently, both use the same OWJ turbojets except Yasin has non-afterburning ones. Kowsar has an FBW system and is a proven airframe while Yasin is a novel design that can be anything.

................

Unrelated but I am gonna write it here, Currently IRIAF has the following resources in the Tiger fleet, I was thinking about how can they be utilized to the max.

1 x Azarakhsh
5 x Saegheh-I
1 x Saegheh-II
4 x Kowsar-I + additional 14-20 seen in HESA (total 18-24)
35 x F-5E
14 x F-5F
14 x F-5B Simorgh

So that brings us to a total of 80 airframes among which 4 are built from scratch inside Iran. If all of the F-5BSimorgh + A/R/E/F models + Azarakhsh are dismantled to create a repository of parts for a new assembly, this can be a very useful stopgap fleet until (a) Some foreign 4++ fighter is procured (b) Saegheh III / Kowsar II / Azarakhsh III emerges

Something like this can be formed:

12 x Kowsar-I Trainers replacing the current Simorghs, Yasin project (waste of $)
6 x Saeghe-I/II E-warfare platforms with Radars, ECM/ECCM+Jammers, RWRs, Tactical DL
62 x Kowsar-I Fighters with FBW, Radars+ECCM, RWR, Tactical DL

These 68 fighters can form 7-8 fully armed mixed squadrons with F-14AM, MIG-29 9.12 (if upgraded). A total of 130 x 4th generation aircraft.

i guess F-5b is shorter than F5-f and have weaker engine. wonder if it worth touching them ?

 

[drmeson]

Cruising speed of F5 and Kowsar is higher than F18 while Yasin is probably half..
Than Price... You must make difference between transition trainers Like Kowsar, FT-7 or Mig 29UB and Advance training aircrafts....it is not even close, you dont put pilot from PC 7 in to supersonic fighter Jet... Yasin Will fill role between

You have an instructor and a student in the cockpit, what does speed has to do with it? I would assume a Mirage F1BQ with its 46000 ft/min climb is faster than most of the fighter jets on planet yet IRIAF is using it as a trainer at Doshan Tappeh Training School. Many airforces have no intermediate subsonic AT jet for trainers. This is a rather newer approach with LIFT+CAS aircrafts emerging around the world like Yak-130, T-7 Red hawk, M-346, JL-10 etc. IRIAF currently itself has no LIFT or AT jet either. They use PC-7 and then pilots go to F5-B Simorgh, FT-7N, Mirage F1BQ etc for jet training.

Yasin AT's "Forced" utility can be in a form advanced training squadron of 12 x Yasin AT with the same avionics package of IEI, Bayenat-II radars, e-warfare suite, Fatter missiles etc that was shown at HESA. Pilots who train on them can go to ... Kowsar-I, Kowsar-II (future), F-4E/D Dowran. This can happen because they have operated and trained themselves on same-origin electronics, and systems. Maybe only 1 training squadron at best can be made. A single squadron of two seated Kowsar-T can do the same for a fleet of 150 aircrafts.

Here is something about the cost:

From scratch Kowsar-I or Saegheh I/II or = 10 Million USD per unit
Upgradation of F-5E/F to Kowsar standards = 7.5 Million USD (FBW, Landing gears, Radar, Avionics, e-warfare, seats, glass cockpits, wings, tails, V stabilizer, new skin, new or extensively overhauled turbojets)

This shows that the major amount goes to the internal systems of the aircraft instead of the airframe. I personally believe that Yasin's unit cost with radars and avionics will be no less than than 7-9 Million itself. It's an indigenous design (AT-3 copy with Kowsar avionics) so they are trying to market it around otherwise its a waste of money project.


....................

Anybody saw OWJ Tazarve being operational ?

Don’t you think we should start a separate thread on this F-14AM and eventual Su-35 discussion since it is a topic on its own and not really IRIAF news related

I will post the F-14AM thread.

I dont think we should have an SU-35 thread since there has been no official word on purchase, there are just twitter rumors so far.

 

[drmeson]

i guess F-5b is shorter than F5-f and have weaker engine. wonder if it worth touching them ?

Yes, the nosecone I guess is smaller by 1.5 feet. They are not supposed to contain radars.

Then we have actual evidence that HESA has reconstructed nose cones for Saeghe-I 3-7366 and Kowsar-1 3-7400 so it would be easy for them to give F-5B a larger radar carriage space.


Saeqeh-I 3-7366

Kowsar-I 3-7400

Both these aircrafts at unveiling had larger radomes.

 

[drmeson]

................

I want to ask everyone a question:

1) Is the leadership of Iran deliberately trying to kill IRIAF? We know the Nojeh coup mentality existed for a long time that resulted in purges. We saw how elements in Turkish-AF tried to muscle out AKP's government in the coup attempt. Is leadership still not trusting the IRIAF? so biased appointments of trusted officers and budget cuts are actually deliberate attempts at the ultimate murder of IRIAF.

2) Competition with IRGC who have themselves got multiple branches including an AF and see IRIAF as a competition for $$$. They have had massive control over MoD for budgets which saw them gaining strides while IRIAF degradation happened over the years.

3) Strategists of Iran saw Saddam's fourth largest AF in the world being destroyed by US and its allies so they see IRIAF providing no strategic deterrence even if they purchase some 300 SU-35S. We are seeing the Missile forces and Space programs making strides. We are seeing the UCAV fleet growing larger and technology-wise evolving. We are seeing naval developments at a fast pace. The radars, the SAMs are all growing fast yet IRIAF is being left behind because Syrian theatre, Saudi Failure in Yemen, Ukraine war is teaching Iran that a large Airforce is not gonna win you wars. RuAF has done little in Ukrainian war so far, US with its large air muscle could not end Afghan and Iraqi militancy either. May be they see DPRK's model of massive missile power with CBRN warheads as a more successful deterent model than keeping a large Airforce (Shahi model against USSR). For airdefence they are investing heavily in radars and Ambush SAMs in all categories.

4) What is the future of IRIAF then?

There are no sanctions on Iran to purchase Chinese or Russian Jets with TOT
Nothing is stopping Iran from pulling an extensive local upgrade program on MIG fleet
Why there are two assemblies for ~150 Saegheh-I/II/ or Kowsar-I/II production
Why there is no work being done on local AESA radars, larger turbofans, and light wt. BVRs?

With the same trend continuing we will see IRIAF dying around 2030 while IRGC will be flying around their HGVs at ~ICBM ranges and sailing their low RCS Command ships. We may see Iranian HIMADS reaching 500 KM with TVC control at that time and Jet powered large UCAVs with AI deploying weaponry from internal bays as well but IRIAF will be gone altogether.

Sensible people please discuss it !

 

[aryobarzan]

................

I want to ask everyone a question:

1) Is the leadership of Iran deliberately trying to kill IRIAF? We know the Nojeh coup mentality existed for a long time that resulted in purges. We saw how elements in Turkish-AF tried to muscle out AKP's government in the coup attempt. Is leadership still not trusting the IRIAF? so biased appointments of trusted officers and budget cuts are actually deliberate attempts at the ultimate murder of IRIAF.

2) Competition with IRGC who have themselves got multiple branches including an AF and see IRIAF as a competition for $$$. They have had massive control over MoD for budgets which saw them gaining strides while IRIAF degradation happened over the years.

3) Strategists of Iran saw Saddam's fourth largest AF in the world being destroyed by US and its allies so they see IRIAF providing no strategic deterrence even if they purchase some 300 SU-35S. We are seeing the Missile forces and Space programs making strides. We are seeing the UCAV fleet growing larger and technology-wise evolving. We are seeing naval developments at a fast pace. The radars, the SAMs are all growing fast yet IRIAF is being left behind because Syrian theatre, Saudi Failure in Yemen, Ukraine war is teaching Iran that a large Airforce is not gonna win you wars. RuAF has done little in Ukrainian war so far, US with its large air muscle could not end Afghan and Iraqi militancy either. May be they see DPRK's model of massive missile power with CBRN warheads as a more successful deterent model than keeping a large Airforce (Shahi model against USSR). For airdefence they are investing heavily in radars and Ambush SAMs in all categories.

4) What is the future of IRIAF then?

There are no sanctions on Iran to purchase Chinese or Russian Jets with TOT
Nothing is stopping Iran from pulling an extensive local upgrade program on MIG fleet
Why there are two assemblies for ~150 Saegheh-I/II/ or Kowsar-I/II production
Why there is no work being done on local AESA radars, larger turbofans, and light wt. BVRs?

With the same trend continuing we will see IRIAF dying around 2030 while IRGC will be flying around their HGVs at ~ICBM ranges and sailing their low RCS Command ships. We may see Iranian HIMADS reaching 500 KM with TVC control at that time and Jet powered large UCAVs with AI deploying weaponry from internal bays as well but IRIAF will be gone altogether.

Sensible people please discuss it !

You have answered your own question..Iran's threat environement is better served with a missile centric approach . ..I can not disagree with such approach...
Iran should spend the money on nuclear, space,drone and missiles...if you have nuclear and missiles to deliver them no one of any significance will dare to touch you...but we also need our Nuclear Triad..so that is why we need those bigger subs and naval expenditure.

 

[Hack-Hook]

You have answered your own question..Iran's threat environement is better served with a missile centric approach . ..I can not disagree with such approach...
Iran should spend the money on nuclear, space,drone and missiles...if you have nuclear and missiles to deliver them no one of any significance will dare to touch you...but we also need our Nuclear Triad..so that is why we need those bigger subs and naval expenditure.

how many time India and Pakistan went to war. did nukes stop Ukraine from standing against Russia .
without proper air force you can have as much missile as you like , when you give sky to enemy ,it's like you have tied one hand and want to get a wrestling medal