IRIAF | News and Discussions

[raptor22]

nothing new , USA did the same to Canada . at a time they had a domestic jet that was better than usa conterparts but USA bribed some of their politicians and the program get scrapped.
it was called Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow , the jet first flight was in 1958 and it was supposed to be Canada air force main interceptor , it could reach Mach 2 and fly up to 50000 feet , they even built a jet engine for the aircraft which was called Orenda PS.13 Iroquois and was better than Pratt & Whitney J75 that USA used at the same time.

and guess what they get instead of that superior interceptor, this inferior fighter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_F-101_Voodoo

not only that even Israel once had an indigenous fighter program ,but after some serious talk from uncle Sam they had to abandon it and be contented with F16 and permission to play with them to some extent.

By the way a domestic fighter jet is really expensive .. I hope it wouldn't stop us.

 

[zartosht]

I honestly suspected the American pressure as being one of the main reasons... and I'm quite familiar with the avro arrow debacle. There is still controversy surrounding it.. but one has to give the benefit of the doubt and assume Japanese politicians are not complete sell out traitors and some rational reasoning went towards this decision.

you have to consider that when it comes to aircraft: Building prototypes and building production planes is a completely different ballgame. Even in serious aircraft producing nations like the US/Russia. It takes them a good decade of work, refinement and pouring cash to work out the kinks and come to a finished usable product after their prototypes make their maiden flights. ( Just look at all the delays, and difficulty the F35 is facing. Despite throwing a trillion dollars at it, and having a century of aircraft building experience, and the best engineers money can buy working on it.)

building the critical parts like the engine is hard. But building a reliable engine is what sets the serious players apart from. Could an inexperienced Canada have been able to convert the avrow into a workable product? while still keeping it financially viable? Its a question people are still debating...

But id cautios on the Zionist plane. Their piece of crap never stood a chance. they are a welfare state living off the teet of the American tax payer. THe americans were already on the hook for subsidizing the Zionist military to the tune of billions (in peacetime, with room for unlimited growth in time of need). Why would they be funding them to make them a competitor?

makes no sense whatsoever. The Zionist economy cannot support projects the size of aircraft. Better to concentrate on certain sub-systems. an area they can be productive in, and make a little money out of.

 

[Hack-Hook]

I honestly suspected the American pressure as being one of the main reasons... and I'm quite familiar with the avro arrow debacle. There is still controversy surrounding it.. but one has to give the benefit of the doubt and assume Japanese politicians are not complete sell out traitors and some rational reasoning went towards this decision.

you have to consider that when it comes to aircraft: Building prototypes and building production planes is a completely different ballgame. Even in serious aircraft producing nations like the US/Russia. It takes them a good decade of work, refinement and pouring cash to work out the kinks and come to a finished usable product after their prototypes make their maiden flights. ( Just look at all the delays, and difficulty the F35 is facing. Despite throwing a trillion dollars at it, and having a century of aircraft building experience, and the best engineers money can buy working on it.)

building the critical parts like the engine is hard. But building a reliable engine is what sets the serious players apart from. Could an inexperienced Canada have been able to convert the avrow into a workable product? while still keeping it financially viable? Its a question people are still debating...

But id cautios on the Zionist plane. Their piece of crap never stood a chance. they are a welfare state living off the teet of the American tax payer. THe americans were already on the hook for subsidizing the Zionist military to the tune of billions (in peacetime, with room for unlimited growth in time of need). Why would they be funding them to make them a competitor?

makes no sense whatsoever. The Zionist economy cannot support projects the size of aircraft. Better to concentrate on certain sub-systems. an area they can be productive in, and make a little money out of.

and well after Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow the same thing happened to IAI Lavi and now Mitsubishi X-2 .
all of them were competing with USA offer or were better than them all of them have finished their flight test with best scores and all of them get cancelled after some talking with Uncle Sam . so well one thinks......

by the way all the aircraft had their engines and subsystem designed so there was no problem there as a matter of fact the money which was to spend on designing were spend so nobody can claim the design expense as result of cancellation . the only thing that remained for these aircraft was serial production and at this stage they get cancelled.

 

[zartosht]

Yes that's the hardest and most important part. Getting it into serial production is what seperates the the boys from the men. As the kinks and problems become to costly to overcome, the aircraft might be deemed not financially viable.

just look at the way the Indians are chasing their tails in this regard... And they have more money, resources and better access to foreign tech then iran.

just look at the F-35... its been in production a decade. its hundreds of billions over budget. if it weren't for nearly unlimited American resources, lesser nations might have deemed it financially non-viable and killed or re-designed it into something cheaper/simpler long time ago.

There is room for debate on the Avro.... (though I'm a skeptic on it based on what ive read). But there is no question in my mind the Zionist piece of crap was not viable. The Zionist are the only entity on earth that americans actually sacrifice their national interests for. There is no way on earth I would ever believe any lobby could bully them off a product in their national interest to appease uncle sam.

Canada and japan maybe. not Israel.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Yes that's the hardest and most important part. Getting it into serial production is what seperates the the boys from the men. As the kinks and problems become to costly to overcome, the aircraft might be deemed not financially viable.

just look at the way the Indians are chasing their tails in this regard... And they have more money, resources and better access to foreign tech then iran.

just look at the F-35... its been in production a decade. its hundreds of billions over budget. if it weren't for nearly unlimited American resources, lesser nations might have deemed it financially non-viable and killed or re-designed it into something cheaper/simpler long time ago.

There is room for debate on the Avro.... (though I'm a skeptic on it based on what ive read). But there is no question in my mind the Zionist piece of crap was not viable. The Zionist are the only entity on earth that americans actually sacrifice their national interests for. There is no way on earth I would ever believe any lobby could bully them off a product in their national interest to appease uncle sam.

Canada and japan maybe. not Israel.

India problem is they can't still find a suitable solution for engine.
about IAI Lavi well there was some debate in USA congress and they refused to dish out the money needed for producing it and at the time Israel used 28% of its income on military and they simply couldn't afford to spend more on building airplanes.

and serial producing an airplane which has completed its development is not more expensive than building it .and honestly you thin Mitsubishi X-2 would have been more expensive than F-35 that Japan gonna get at best as F-22 is forbidden to be sold

 

[zartosht]

Well engines are probably the most difficult part of an airplane to build. especially building a reliable engine. there are very few countries that have been able to successfully do it. you seem to be downplaying the indian problems.

their progress on airframes leaves a lot to be desired also.... I think Indians are a good example of what not to do.

also to say that going from prototype to production model is not a big deal/expensive is completely false.

just look at the f-35 production. Boeing was actually competing for and put out a prototype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32 to try and win the trillion dollar contract. how much do you think they spent on it? not even in the same universe as the figures were looking at for the F35.

I really don't think you grasp how complex building a state of the art military fighter plane is. 1950s tech is not comparable to todays standards.

It is not a single machine. But many different machines and components that have to work perfectly together. That's the real challenge.

just to give you a single example. The trillion dollar f-35. After decades of work, production, the pedigree of a century of aircraft building and unlimited time and money going into it.

one of the many current problems it has is the "bump" when it takes off from aircraft carriers. There is a slight design flaw that gives the aircraft a "kick" when it takes off. And that is enough to sometimes even knock the all important helmet off the pilots head and temporarily disorient him.

They are seriously considering just leaving this design flaw as is as it would take many billions of dollars and probably years and a large re-design to fix..

you have to overcome many challenges like this from prototype, To production, to serial production before you get to the end product. to say that from prototype to finished product is a simple or cheap process is completely false.

that is probably what scared japan as well...

looking at the history of modern aircraft. virtually all of them have been greatly over budget, Late and faced with enormous difficulties.

If japan wanted to invest 40 billion in the program. They would have had to take the risks of massive cost overruns taking the project into 100 billion dollar categories with no guarantee of success......

their other option was to go for more of a sure thing. And join the American program. Which is the option they chose. There is room for debate on it, but to automatically dismiss it as some sort of national betrayal by Japanese politicans with 0 rational reasoning behind it would be false.

 

[TheImmortal]

Well engines are probably the most difficult part of an airplane to build. especially building a reliable engine. there are very few countries that have been able to successfully do it. you seem to be downplaying the indian problems.

their progress on airframes leaves a lot to be desired also.... I think Indians are a good example of what not to do.

also to say that going from prototype to production model is not a big deal/expensive is completely false.

just look at the f-35 production. Boeing was actually competing for and put out a prototype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32 to try and win the trillion dollar contract. how much do you think they spent on it? not even in the same universe as the figures were looking at for the F35.

I really don't think you grasp how complex building a state of the art military fighter plane is. 1950s tech is not comparable to todays standards.

It is not a single machine. But many different machines and components that have to work perfectly together. That's the real challenge.

just to give you a single example. The trillion dollar f-35. After decades of work, production, the pedigree of a century of aircraft building and unlimited time and money going into it.

one of the many current problems it has is the "bump" when it takes off from aircraft carriers. There is a slight design flaw that gives the aircraft a "kick" when it takes off. And that is enough to sometimes even knock the all important helmet off the pilots head and temporarily disorient him.

They are seriously considering just leaving this design flaw as is as it would take many billions of dollars and probably years and a large re-design to fix..

you have to overcome many challenges like this from prototype, To production, to serial production before you get to the end product. to say that from prototype to finished product is a simple or cheap process is completely false.

that is probably what scared japan as well...

looking at the history of modern aircraft. virtually all of them have been greatly over budget, Late and faced with enormous difficulties.

If japan wanted to invest 40 billion in the program. They would have had to take the risks of massive cost overruns taking the project into 100 billion dollar categories with no guarantee of success......

their other option was to go for more of a sure thing. And join the American program. Which is the option they chose. There is room for debate on it, but to automatically dismiss it as some sort of national betrayal by Japanese politicans with 0 rational reasoning behind it would be false.

Comparing 1950's tech to today's standard is just as flawed.

You have to consider the technology available (no supercomputer simulations, no perfect cutting lasers, etc.) at the time for the product produced. So while a 1950's plane made today doesn't seem like a huge feat, it was a big one in 1950 with the technology they had to work with.

My point is that enormous hurdles occur throughout history irregardless of the time period. A country like Japan and Israel had/has many options in regarding procuring advanced arms tech. Thus the most economical is usually undertaken. Iran on the other has little to no options to accure advanced arms. Thus irregardless of the monetary/economic pain it likely has to proceed with a domestic fighter program.

 

[N_Al40]

Heard from inside sources that Iran is still low-key working on a fighter jet with Russia.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

 

[raptor22]

@Hack-Hook @AmirPatriot @VEVAK

 

[AmirPatriot]

@Hack-Hook @AmirPatriot @VEVAK
View attachment 460178

Since when has Iran had the Su-35...

 

[Muhammed45]

Since when has Iran had the Su-35...

Nothing officially yet

All rumors, but this website is more credible with Dmitry Rogozin quotes during his meeting with DM Dehqan.
https://southfront.org/russia-suggests-iran-buy-su-27sm3-fighters-iran-wants-su-30sm-su-35-reports/

 

[raptor22]

Since when has Iran had the Su-35...

 

[eagle2007]

ALCON,

Those are just the reports of talks from last year, mostly based on reports from B.T. with only a tiny hint of Russian confirmation of the talks. Nothing new there.

Assuming all that talk last year was true (which only discussed talks, with no deals apparently signed), the MoD wanted the Su-30SME, arguably the most advanced Flanker export model, but the Russians weren't keen on it. The idea of them offering Su-27SM3 at first seems a little odd. For one, there are actually some evidence this variant are indeed new-built (various news reports referred to them as "new" vs the modernized Su-27SM/SM2) or at least could be. Regardless of whether they would have been new-built or modernized ex-RuAF stock, in terms of technology, they would have been a major step down from the Su-30SME.

The SM3 effectively mated the avionics of the Su-30MK2 to the Su-27S airframe plus new-built engines with increased thrust and reliability. So while it's a decently equipped bird, it looks rather poor compared to the PESA-equipped Su-30SM.

The confusion with the variants is understandable though. What most folks don't know is that there are two separate/competing production lines of Su-30s alone: KnAAPO-designed Su-30MK family (MKK, MK2, MKV) and Irkut-designed Su-30MKI family (MKI, MKA, MKM, SM). The Su-35 family is built by another group as well. So today, there are at least three groups of Flanker builders who are effectively independent of each other and even compete with one another but yet fall under the overall Sukhoi umbrella.

Raptor22,

...and? A random tweet from someone who is NOT the MoD or an official Russian source.

 

[KapitaanAli]

Well engines are probably the most difficult part of an airplane to build. especially building a reliable engine. there are very few countries that have been able to successfully do it. you seem to be downplaying the indian problems.

their progress on airframes leaves a lot to be desired also.... I think Indians are a good example of what not to do.

Our problem was that the development agency was asked to change the parameters midway to make it a multi-role fighter. And so, we decided to develop the engine and AESA among other things by ourselves, which as you know, is elite tech and resulted in delays.
Sanctions in between made it worse.

If you can upgrade your fighters like we did with M2000, Mig29, Jaguar and Mig21 to modern standards as much as possible, there's nothing about our slow-ish development that you shouldn't follow.
But if you desperately need fighters, don't follow us.
Indeed, you shouldn't follow us because IRIAF desperately needs new fighters and lacks the resources to upgrade their fighters beyond a limit. So either develop a fighter that's on par with Tejas Mk1 (not Mk1A) with Russian/Chinese help, or buy Sukhois. Or both.

 

[AmirPatriot]

ALCON,

Those are just the reports of talks from last year, mostly based on reports from B.T. with only a tiny hint of Russian confirmation of the talks. Nothing new there.

Assuming all that talk last year was true (which only discussed talks, with no deals apparently signed), the MoD wanted the Su-30SME, arguably the most advanced Flanker export model, but the Russians weren't keen on it. The idea of them offering Su-27SM3 at first seems a little odd. For one, there are actually some evidence this variant are indeed new-built (various news reports referred to them as "new" vs the modernized Su-27SM/SM2) or at least could be. Regardless of whether they would have been new-built or modernized ex-RuAF stock, in terms of technology, they would have been a major step down from the Su-30SME.

The SM3 effectively mated the avionics of the Su-30MK2 to the Su-27S airframe plus new-built engines with increased thrust and reliability. So while it's a decently equipped bird, it looks rather poor compared to the PESA-equipped Su-30SM.

The confusion with the variants is understandable though. What most folks don't know is that there are two separate/competing production lines of Su-30s alone: KnAAPO-designed Su-30MK family (MKK, MK2, MKV) and Irkut-designed Su-30MKI family (MKI, MKA, MKM, SM). The Su-35 family is built by another group as well. So today, there are at least three groups of Flanker builders who are effectively independent of each other and even compete with one another but yet fall under the overall Sukhoi umbrella.

Raptor22,

...and? A random tweet from someone who is NOT the MoD or an official Russian source.

I don't really buy in to B.T's claim that Russia doesn't want to sell Iran the SME because Russia is somehow concerned about Iranian actions in the region. Going off his Twitter, it seems all he does are political rants now.

I just think the Russians were not keen on selling it before the sanctions end in 2020. It is possible they fear repercussions in other areas.

I don't know how much you know about Russian arms export trends, but I wonder if some of their cautiousness is because Iran hasn't put forward a big enough order to entice them into the sale. I do think Iran needs to buy a significant number of fighters and would be concerned if it spent all that political capital on a major arms purchase, without making a big arms purchase. The S-300 saga comes to mind.