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F-35 and F-22 fly with radar deflectors during peace time, even in Syria.

So any data Iran collects is borderline useless as the RCS being shown on radar is purposely inflated.

could be or maybe they turned them off for every now and then for exercise or drill





Admiral Sayari said "We will hit every float or airborne objects that wants to enter our combat area to spy,"



https://defapress.ir/fa/news/376231/انهدام-هرگونه-شناور-و-هواگرد-بیگانه-در-محل-رزمایش
 
The living standard of Iran might be a better under Iran's Shah, but no way it could build the foundation of an independent military industrial complex.

The current Iranian regime has built up an independent military industrial complex, and this truly paves the road for Iran as true player in the world's future geopolitics.

The huge missile force of Iran shows it is a true independent player of its own, and very few non-P5 countries could achieve this impressive feat.
I couldnt have put it any better.
Under pahlavi iran may have had some impressive weapons and capabilities.....on paper at least,but these were completely dependent on us and western logistics and after market support and back up,and the downsides to this became only too apparent during the iran-iraq war.
 
could be or maybe they turned them off for every now and then for exercise or drill





Admiral Sayari said "We will hit every float or airborne objects that wants to enter our combat area to spy,"



https://defapress.ir/fa/news/376231/انهدام-هرگونه-شناور-و-هواگرد-بیگانه-در-محل-رزمایش


They would never do exercises around enemy radars. Instead they would do it in Alaska or Hawaii or Guam.

There was a rumor, that UAE turned on its S-300 Radar when an F-22 was flying into UAE for an air show and that the S-300 was able to detect the radar signature of the F-22. US was not happy with this because they believe Russia has backdoors in all foreign systems and can collect that information.
 
I couldnt have put it any better.
Under pahlavi iran may have had some impressive weapons and capabilities.....on paper at least,but these were completely dependent on us and western logistics and after market support and back up,and the downsides to this became only too apparent during the iran-iraq war.

I disagree with that assessment. While it’s true that Iran was a half banana country during the Shah era they were on path to receive substantial technologies. Remember Iran has yet to reach the daily oil production peak reached under the Shah. There is no reason Iran shouldn’t be pumping 5+MM barrels per day of oil, the fact is there simply is not enough investment in developing the numerous fields in Iran.

Eventually they could ask for tech transfer like Turkey does today in civilian and military fields, companies will be forced to accept in order to not miss out on closing the deal. This is the tactic that allowed China to rapidly harvest top US technology and become the emerging superpower today. Companies would turn over IP in desperation in order to have access to Chinese markets and labor. Right now Iran has zero leverage on companies and the desperation is entirely on the Iranian front. You know things are bad when Indians flip you the bird and cancel projects.

As long as Iran stayed in the Western field of influence, it would be given strategic leeway to control the Middle East on behalf of the US and NATO. The rise of Israel was due to the fall of Iran. America needed another policeman in the region and Israel was tasked with that task. At the time Israel depended on Iran as a neutral friend in the region.

So this thinking that under the Shah Iran would never get anywhere and would forever stay a banana country is deeply flawed. Iranians unlike their PG Arab counterparts have always been hardworking and knowledgable race. If you see Baboon Arabia being backwards after all this time it is because that is the society they have cultivated where they use slave labor and Western experts to build everything for them. They are content hiding under the security umbrella of the US. Iran was never like that. Iran was on the path to nuclear bomb by 1990 and multiple nuclear power plants by 2000.

Both the Shah and IR of Iran are imperfect dictatorships. Both of have used violence to stay in power. Both did good for society and did bad as well. That is the nature of the beast.

Times have changed, you no longer can overthrow governments and hope in 10 years everything is different. Iran must deal with the government it has, not the one it dreams of. Any revolution will set Iran back decades (set Syria back 50+ years in terms of GDP).
 
!) The US will soon impose more sanctions on Turkey because of the S-400 and the EU will impose sanctions before the Turkey's gas exploration and the issue with sanctions. These sanctions could have extremely detrimental effects on the Turkish economy. We don't know how effective they will be but most likely the Lira will lose atleast 20% or more of its value when they are implemented

2)Iran is being severely sanctioned because Iran is an independent Muslim country. Iran has an extensive missile program, nuclear program and sends direct aid to Palestinian groups. If Turkey were to make similar choices your country would be severely sanctioned, however unlike Iran, Turkey doesn't have lots of natural resources to fall back on and Turkey is not as industrious as Iran. Therefore the sanctions would completely cripple Turkey and the effects would be devastating. I can't see Turkey withstanding the sanctions the way Iran has.

3) The amount of foreign debt in Turkey has doubled in the last 10 years and everytime the Lira devalues it becomes more expensive to pay back. Turkey's economy has slowed down and with Erdogan and his family running the show, it doesn't look like there are going to be any serious reforms. All the experts, economists are warning clients about investing in Turkey.

4) Nobody in their right mind is going to invest or buy a Turkish branded car unless it's something like half the price of European models. Even then most people will not invest in an unknown brand coming from a country that is not that stable. The coup wasn't too long ago and its fresh in peoples memories. Like I said, if they can produce this car for half the price, maybe sell it at cost for a few years, then maybe they can make a profit in a few years. Honda, Toyota, Hyundia, Benz, Ford are all coming out with cheap electric cars. Why would anyone buy Turkish ?

This thread is nothing to do with Turkish Economy or Turkish national Car but anyway.

1) Currency devaluation doesn't have the same effect on Iran and Turkey, for example Turkey has free trade aggrements with EU. It is a big market for us and We can sell our products as we wish thats why when Turkish Lira lose her value we sell our products much more easly. And Iran? Can you sell your products to EU or any big market like EU with cheaper prices? Do you have any free trade aggrements? No.

2) Iran has sanctions just like Iran has oil. If you can't use all of your potential it is not our fault. It is a failure of the iranian administration, thought I will respect their decision.

3) They don't apply same sactions on Turkey like they did in Iran, not because they don't give a f*ck about us. It is vice versa. They know more sactions will pull Turkey out of NATO. They don't want this. They need us. And we are using it for our advantage. We bomb their so called allies in syria, they watch. We brought Russian's S400 all they can do is banning F-35. Because more than this will hurt them just like it will hurt us.

4) Turkish dept per GDP is pretty small. Try to find Turkey in that list, I think you are not gonna be able to. Because we don't have that much dept.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-national-debt/

And a little note, Our cars if all goes as we planned will sell in both Turkish market and European market. With right price and quality, everything is possible.
 
Both the Shah and IR of Iran are imperfect dictatorships. Both of have used violence to stay in power. Both did good for society and did bad as well. That is the nature of the beast.

i dont know where do live in but for sure u didn't see the true nature of dictatorship and violence by govt. do exist in earth.

In case of me, what i have seen already a few samples, i can assure u the act of Iranian govt is much better than my experiences.
 
No one can accurately predict the economy of a country that far in the future.

Also if Iran integrates into the world economy it will go through an economic boom the likes of which hasn’t been seen. You are forgetting that 80MM population has been completely closed off to US investment and significantly closed off to EU investment.

So Iran could pass Turkey in next 20 years if sanctions are lifted and ties with US are normalized.

You are overestimating the role of foreign investments....If larger amount of foreign investments were made in Iran, its economy would be 5-10% larger than it is today.... and still smaller than Turkish.

Iran was open to foreign investments but most investments came into oil sector. Stock of Iran's foreign investment at home is 50bln$. Turkish stock of foreign investment is 180bln$....If you want to attract more foreign investments you need to make institutional reforms to create good environment for foreign investors---simply relieving sanctions is not enough.

Of course because of sanctions Iran lagged behind Turkey....2 shortages:
1) It is normal for countries to borrow money in international financial markets and invest that money into domestic economy.....Iran was banned from international financial markets and could not borrow cheaply.

In contrast, having access to international financial markets, Turkish companies borrowed a lot of money and invested into their economy---Turkish external debt (corporate +government) is 452bln$---50% of Turkish nominal GDP.

Iran however could not borrow and its external debt is small---7bln$ only----or 1,5% of GDP---so potentially there is a lot of room to grow.

Because Iranian debt is so small --there is a lot of room to grow when sanctions are relieved----- Iranian companies and government can potentially borrow hundreds of billions of dollars and make investments into Iranian economy thus boosting economic growth.

2) There is a potential to attracting more foreign investments.

But even despite all this, Iranian economy is overall less dynamic than Turkish because of geographic reasons.

Regarding "No one can accurately predict the economy of a country that far in the future."


Of course it is impossible to accurately estimate future GDP over the next 30 years...but accuracy doesn't matter---what is important is overall picture of the future.

Economists at PwC analyzed each country and provided their overall view of how world will look like in 2050. I myself don't agree with some of their estimates (for example I doubt long-term success of Saudi Arabia--a country whose economy is fully built on oil).....but overall balance of power seems realistic.

This is an overall picture of the future.

Most countries that are higher on the list than Iran will have economies that will be 1,1-2,5 times bigger than Iranian economy----this is not a substantial superiority and these countries will not be able to threaten Iran.

However 3 countries will have substantial superiority over Iran....

USA will have a GDP which is 8,5 timers bigger than Iran's and China will have a GDP that is 14,5 times bigger than Iran---------so these countries will potentially be big enough to threaten Iran.

But China and USA are far away located and China will be contained by an alliance of Japan+Korea+Taiwan+Vietnam+USA....And US will be busy containing China like it contained USSR in the past.

However India is an immediate neighbor of Iran and will have a GDP that is 11 times bigger than Iran's---so India is a potential long-term threat to Iran.

We can assume that in the future India will build a huge Navy and air force and will become a hyperpower that projects power through the area and tries to establish hegemony in the Indian Ocean basin.

So while China and USA are far away located and will be busy containing each other....India will become a threat not only to Pakistan but also to Iran and other counties of the region.

So probably a military block of Iran+Pakistan+China designed to contain India will appear .
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!) The US will soon impose more sanctions on Turkey because of the S-400 and the EU will impose sanctions before the Turkey's gas exploration and the issue with sanctions. These sanctions could have extremely detrimental effects on the Turkish economy. We don't know how effective they will be but most likely the Lira will lose atleast 20% or more of its value when they are implemented

2)Iran is being severely sanctioned because Iran is an independent Muslim country. Iran has an extensive missile program, nuclear program and sends direct aid to Palestinian groups. If Turkey were to make similar choices your country would be severely sanctioned, however unlike Iran, Turkey doesn't have lots of natural resources to fall back on and Turkey is not as industrious as Iran. Therefore the sanctions would completely cripple Turkey and the effects would be devastating. I can't see Turkey withstanding the sanctions the way Iran has.

3) The amount of foreign debt in Turkey has doubled in the last 10 years and everytime the Lira devalues it becomes more expensive to pay back. Turkey's economy has slowed down and with Erdogan and his family running the show, it doesn't look like there are going to be any serious reforms. All the experts, economists are warning clients about investing in Turkey.

4) Nobody in their right mind is going to invest or buy a Turkish branded car unless it's something like half the price of European models. Even then most people will not invest in an unknown brand coming from a country that is not that stable. The coup wasn't too long ago and its fresh in peoples memories. Like I said, if they can produce this car for half the price, maybe sell it at cost for a few years, then maybe they can make a profit in a few years. Honda, Toyota, Hyundia, Benz, Ford are all coming out with cheap electric cars. Why would anyone buy Turkish ?
1) Maybe they will saction us more, maybe they won't. I believe, they can't because it will seperate us more and more, Like I explained. But time will tell.

2) What Industry you are talking about? You think your Industry is stronger than Turkey? Ah, good old propaganda. Turkey doesn't have oil, thats the truth. But saying that ''Iran is more industrious'' is just hilarious. Military or civillian, we are much more industrious than your sactioned Iran. And it was your own fault... You can't even reach to necessary markets because of the sections, what Industry do you talking about? Our only problem would be energy. And we will solve it with the gas of Mediterranean... Or you think We have strengthened our navy for nothing?

3) I send you a link about dept per GDP, where was the Turkey in that list? Nowhere. Because we don't have that much dept.

4) Most of the People won't care about politics. Regular people look at to two things when they buy a product. ''Is it quality and how much do I have to pay for it?'' electric car is a new technology. Tesla wasn't a Mercedes neither. Of course it is hard to crack the market with a new brand, but it's nothing unusual. First we will start with local market, and when we start to export with the right price, people will love it... It is the plan anyway. Again time will tell.
 
Iran is undoubtedly more industrious than turkey.
Iran is one of the only 9 countries in the world that has put satellites in space. Turkey can't put satellites into space, you have to pay other countries to do it for you.
Iran has an indigenous nuclear program. Turkey will soon have nuclear power plants run by Russia but even the spent fuel will be managed by Russia.
Iran builds more than 1 million cars a year and over a decade ago began designing and building its own brands of vehicles, not Italian designs.
Iran can build jets, tanks, submarines. Currently not as good as what the west can produce but Iran can build them without any foreign assistance. I haven't seen Turkey build any heavy weapons without spare parts or foreign assistance.
Just look at air defense as one example. You can't even really compare turkey to Iran in that field. Iran is fully self sufficient with Iranian made products like Sayyad system, Bavar 373 and countless others. Iranian products have proven their worth in the field. Iran was able to shoot down the RQ-4 drone recently and we saw how Iranian products performed in Saudi Arabia, bypassing hundreds of billions of dollars worth of Patriot SAM's, most of them the most advanced version.
Iran is set to match Canada in scientific output in the next few years. Remember this is all with the most severe sanctions that have ever been imposed on any nation during peace time. Without sanctions it wouldn't even be a contest, but even with sanctions Iran is still far more industrious, self sufficient and productive compared to turkey.

1) Maybe they will saction us more, maybe they won't. I believe, they can't because it will seperate us more and more, Like I explained. But time will tell.

2) What Industry you are talking about? You think your Industry is stronger than Turkey? Ah, good old propaganda. Turkey doesn't have oil, thats the truth. But saying that ''Iran is more industrious'' is just hilarious. Military or civillian, we are much more industrious than your sactioned Iran. And it was your own fault... You can't even reach to necessary markets because of the sections, what Industry do you talking about? Our only problem would be energy. And we will solve it with the gas of Mediterranean... Or you think We have strengthened our navy for nothing?

3) I send you a link about dept per GDP, where was the Turkey in that list? Nowhere. Because we don't have that much dept.

4) Most of the People won't care about politics. Regular people look at to two things when they buy a product. ''Is it quality and how much do I have to pay for it?'' electric car is a new technology. Tesla wasn't a Mercedes neither. Of course it is hard to crack the market with a new brand, but it's nothing unusual. First we will start with local market, and when we start to export with the right price, people will love it... It is the plan anyway. Again time will tell.
 
This thread is nothing to do with Turkish Economy or Turkish national Car but anyway.

1) Currency devaluation doesn't have the same effect on Iran and Turkey, for example Turkey has free trade aggrements with EU. It is a big market for us and We can sell our products as we wish thats why when Turkish Lira lose her value we sell our products much more easly. And Iran? Can you sell your products to EU or any big market like EU with cheaper prices? Do you have any free trade aggrements? No.

2) Iran has sanctions just like Iran has oil. If you can't use all of your potential it is not our fault. It is a failure of the iranian administration, thought I will respect their decision.

3) They don't apply same sactions on Turkey like they did in Iran, not because they don't give a f*ck about us. It is vice versa. They know more sactions will pull Turkey out of NATO. They don't want this. They need us. And we are using it for our advantage. We bomb their so called allies in syria, they watch. We brought Russian's S400 all they can do is banning F-35. Because more than this will hurt them just like it will hurt us.

4) Turkish dept per GDP is pretty small. Try to find Turkey in that list, I think you are not gonna be able to. Because we don't have that much dept.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-national-debt/

And a little note, Our cars if all goes as we planned will sell in both Turkish market and European market. With right price and quality, everything is possible.
I`d be very careful about that sort of smug "they cant hurt us because they need us" type of thinking.The west and america in particular has often engaged in pathological and self destructive behavior without much or indeed any concern for the consequences of these actions either to itself or its vassals,and no one is invulnerable to this,especially not a vassal like turkey.Iran made the exact same sort of mistaken assumptions back in the 2000s that you`re making now with turkey ie that the west,especially the eurovassals would have to be literally insane to sanction iran,not only are some of them heavily or completely dependent on cheap iranian oil,but they would be literally throwing away economic deals worth potentially hundreds of billions of euros,not to mention economic relationships that took many decades to build.But guess what?,they did!
If turkey were really as important to the west and nato as you seem to assume it is then the americans behavior in cutting turkey out of the f35 project,indeed not just cutting you out of the component manufacturing side of it,but preventing you from taking delivery of the aircraft that had been built for turkey,seems a rather distinctly unfriendly thing to do,doesnt it?.As for it costing them more.....well I wouldnt be quite so sure about that,for a start it will cost lm about half a billion to relocate manufacturing of the turkish share of the f35 components back to the us,however its estimated that it will wind up costing turkey as much as 9 billion [$9,000,000,000.00] in lost revenue over the life of the program[ouch!].....oh,and of course turkey doesnt get its 5th gen fighter fleet,but hey...maybe putin will sell you the su57.
By the way have you ever thought about what turkey would do if the us sanctioned it like iran?
 
Iran is undoubtedly more industrious than turkey.
Iran is one of the only 9 countries in the world that has put satellites in space. Turkey can't put satellites into space, you have to pay other countries to do it for you.
Iran has an indigenous nuclear program. Turkey will soon have nuclear power plants run by Russia but even the spent fuel will be managed by Russia.
Iran builds more than 1 million cars a year and over a decade ago began designing and building its own brands of vehicles, not Italian designs.
Iran can build jets, tanks, submarines. Currently not as good as what the west can produce but Iran can build them without any foreign assistance. I haven't seen Turkey build any heavy weapons without spare parts or foreign assistance.
Just look at air defense as one example. You can't even really compare turkey to Iran in that field. Iran is fully self sufficient with Iranian made products like Sayyad system, Bavar 373 and countless others. Iranian products have proven their worth in the field. Iran was able to shoot down the RQ-4 drone recently and we saw how Iranian products performed in Saudi Arabia, bypassing hundreds of billions of dollars worth of Patriot SAM's, most of them the most advanced version.
Iran is set to match Canada in scientific output in the next few years. Remember this is all with the most severe sanctions that have ever been imposed on any nation during peace time. Without sanctions it wouldn't even be a contest, but even with sanctions Iran is still far more industrious, self sufficient and productive compared to turkey.
https://www.investopedia.com/updates/top-developing-countries/
Try to find iran in that list... I don't think you can. Datas doesnt lie.
iran's and Turkey's frame of mind is different. For you, you must do all of the work yourself. You have to. And if the product you produce is inferior against western standarts it is not a problem. You don't have a choice. It is the same for weapons it is the same for civillian products.
Turkey works for the western standards. Because we have access to the big markets... we can export and we like to export. We export cars, household appliances, luxury yachts, everykind of textiles and so on. We are not like Japan or Korea, but god forbid we are not like iran neither.
About defence Industry. It is the same. We produce 70% of our weapons ourselves. We export 2.3 billions of weapons every year. We have 4 firms in top 100... Because we just dont produce, we also export. Sure we don't have a hight attitude SAM right now, but the first air defence system we produced Hisar-A and Hisar-O exported to Bangladesh in prototype stages... Because when we start to work for something. We produce the best we can.
Do we sometimes asking for assitance from the others? Yes. Because we can and if our product is inferior Turkish army won't buy it. And a note, for example Turkish ANKA and Aksungur UCAV's are %95 Turkish made. Even the engines are Turkish PD170 and PD222. Your Shahed-129 is still flying with Rotax and it is just a Tactical UCAV in our doctrine. So you see, it is all about priorities.
And like I said, this data doesn't lie. Perhaps if there was no embargo on you, things would have been different. But it is not the case.

I`d be very careful about that sort of smug "they cant hurt us because they need us" type of thinking.The west and america in particular has often engaged in pathological and self destructive behavior without much or indeed any concern for the consequences of these actions either to itself or its vassals,and no one is invulnerable to this,especially not a vassal like turkey.Iran made the exact same sort of mistaken assumptions back in the 2000s that you`re making now with turkey ie that the west,especially the eurovassals would have to be literally insane to sanction iran,not only are some of them heavily or completely dependent on cheap iranian oil,but they would be literally throwing away economic deals worth potentially hundreds of billions of euros,not to mention economic relationships that took many decades to build.But guess what?,they did!
If turkey were really as important to the west and nato as you seem to assume it is then the americans behavior in cutting turkey out of the f35 project,indeed not just cutting you out of the component manufacturing side of it,but preventing you from taking delivery of the aircraft that had been built for turkey,seems a rather distinctly unfriendly thing to do,doesnt it?.As for it costing them more.....well I wouldnt be quite so sure about that,for a start it will cost lm about half a billion to relocate manufacturing of the turkish share of the f35 components back to the us,however its estimated that it will wind up costing turkey as much as 9 billion [$9,000,000,000.00] in lost revenue over the life of the program[ouch!].....oh,and of course turkey doesnt get its 5th gen fighter fleet,but hey...maybe putin will sell you the su57.
By the way have you ever thought about what turkey would do if the us sanctioned it like iran?
Working with US is like dancing with devil. I know. But iran and Turkey isn't the same. We killed their so called allies and What did they do except F35? Sure it would be different if we threat them with a direct attack like you do... And actually if we today get rid of the S400 they would like to take us back in the project, it is just not something we want. Because F35 means you must obey to US otherwise you can't even fly this jet. And in today's geopolitical sutiation, it is not something we want.
Nobody wants SU-57. Erdogan used it to annoy americans but Turkish defence Industry is working for Hürjet and TFX. This are our next generation fighters, not Su57. I know it is much more harder than just copying F5 with 5 different names but you know us, We like challenges.
 
Like US stop F35 for turkey, they will also can stop F110 GE. So no TFX in 2023 (if ever).
F110 is only for prototype's... And US didn't do anything to stop it, they actually let us use them without a problem. TFX will use Turkish made engines in serial production, but if not, engine can be brought from other sources. EU or Russia, doesnt really matter.
 
Going back to talking about ships.

Certainly the Kamand CIWS and its search and location system would increase the defensive capabilities of the 2 Bayandor class units exponentially.
Tz0MI1l.jpg

Here my photoshop of what it might look like
BrmnadR.jpg
 

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