Iranian Navy | News and Discussions

[Turan09]

Then according to your logic, the recent fall in Iran's currency is a good thing as well ? It can help Iranians sell more ? Well you could say that about any countries currency being devalued. Japan devalued their currency on purpose a few years ago.

Iran is currently being subjected to the most stringent, harshest sanctions in human history, you can't compare it's economy to a country like Turkey with an open market. Also much of Iran's economy is currently under the table. What you see on paper is one thing. The oil Iran sells under the table is another. There are lots of small and medium sized businesses investing in Iran, however they're keeping their activity in the dark out of fear of sanctions.

The US and EU are about to impose some harsher sanctions on Turkey. They don't give a sh#t about Turkey. To them it's just another vassal state. if they fall out of line then they will be punished. Simple as that. Right now their economy is not doing very well. It's mostly just fueled by debt.

Here is a prototype of an electric car they're releasing in 2022. Looks like a Tesla knock off. It's designed by an Italian firm. Electric doesn't really make sense in Iran where gasoline prices are still relatively cheap even with the recent increase. If they can produce it for a really cheap price they can maybe export some ? Although with Germany being right there it's going to be difficult. However if this ends up costing anything close to as much as a Honda, Nissan EV or even a Hyundai EV, I don't see too many people buying it. Maybe some Turkish fanboys and Erdogans family and friends ?

This thread is nothing to do with Turkish Economy or Turkish national Car but anyway.

1) Currency devaluation doesn't have the same effect on Iran and Turkey, for example Turkey has free trade aggrements with EU. It is a big market for us and We can sell our products as we wish thats why when Turkish Lira lose her value we sell our products much more easly. And Iran? Can you sell your products to EU or any big market like EU with cheaper prices? Do you have any free trade aggrements? No.

2) Iran has sanctions just like Iran has oil. If you can't use all of your potential it is not our fault. It is a failure of the iranian administration, thought I will respect their decision.

3) They don't apply same sactions on Turkey like they did in Iran, not because they don't give a f*ck about us. It is vice versa. They know more sactions will pull Turkey out of NATO. They don't want this. They need us. And we are using it for our advantage. We bomb their so called allies in syria, they watch. We brought Russian's S400 all they can do is banning F-35. Because more than this will hurt them just like it will hurt us.

4) Turkish dept per GDP is pretty small. Try to find Turkey in that list, I think you are not gonna be able to. Because we don't have that much dept.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-national-debt/

And a little note, Our cars if all goes as we planned will sell in both Turkish market and European market. With right price and quality, everything is possible.

 

[TheImmortal]

Then according to your logic, the recent fall in Iran's currency is a good thing as well ? It can help Iranians sell more ? Well you could say that about any countries currency being devalued. Japan devalued their currency on purpose a few years ago.

Iran is currently being subjected to the most stringent, harshest sanctions in human history, you can't compare it's economy to a country like Turkey with an open market. Also much of Iran's economy is currently under the table. What you see on paper is one thing. The oil Iran sells under the table is another. There are lots of small and medium sized businesses investing in Iran, however they're keeping their activity in the dark out of fear of sanctions.

The US and EU are about to impose some harsher sanctions on Turkey. They don't give a sh#t about Turkey. To them it's just another vassal state. if they fall out of line then they will be punished. Simple as that. Right now their economy is not doing very well. It's mostly just fueled by debt.

Here is a prototype of an electric car they're releasing in 2022. Looks like a Tesla knock off. It's designed by an Italian firm. Electric doesn't really make sense in Iran where gasoline prices are still relatively cheap even with the recent increase. If they can produce it for a really cheap price they can maybe export some ? Although with Germany being right there it's going to be difficult. However if this ends up costing anything close to as much as a Honda, Nissan EV or even a Hyundai EV, I don't see too many people buying it. Maybe some Turkish fanboys and Erdogans family and friends ?

Does everyone here have reading comprehension issues?

I clearly said 1990-2005 period for GDP historical reference.

Iran was not under draconian sanctions then, just a US trade embargo. Iran was free to trade with the rest of the world.

These sanctions on Iran have been only in effect since 2010. Has nothing to do with why Iran didn’t experience a post war economic boom after Iran-Iraq war.

 

[GWXP]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1210111021525983233

China continues to build up its armada with a whopping 9 destroyers launched in one year

LOL---these destroyers were being built for many years before construction was finished simultaneously in the last year and these ships were delivered to the Navy at the same time.

Sir, China in 1979 (before Iranian revolution) 90% of China population was living in extreme poverty living on under $1 per day. So actually China was further behind than Iran.

Due to Shah and early miscues by early Islamic Republic (not opening up to international trade) Iran regressed and undercut its own potential.

LOL---when you have 1,5 billion people living on 1 dollar a day---this is already a substantial economy--and now you say: what is the potential of 1,5bln Chinese versus 80mln Iranians?

Germany built 703 U-boat submarines bigger than Fateh in a period of decade basically 80 years ago. Iran is at 1 after a decade with all the advancement and technology that has happened in 80 years.

You cannot tell me Iranian scientists today are somehow not as smart as Nazi scientists from 80 years ago. The issue here is Iran talks about having a blue navy, but the rate it is developing its navy it would take another century to be formidable blue navy.

Iran taking 10-15 years to build a kilo sub is quite frankly a joke. That is the time it takes to put up a damn nuclear reactor. Even Busher 2 will be ready before this kilo sub.

Surely in this modern age with advanced computers/blueprints/technological advancements, Iran can build a Juliett class (3200 ton) submarine that the Soviet Union had in the 1960’s (basically 60 years ago) and not take 15 years to do it.

So yes Germany was way more advanced and capable 80 years ago than Iran is today.

You are too concentrated on comparing displacement of submarines. U-Boat and Type XXI are ancient low tech submarines and are not comparable to modern submarines even to those with smaller displacement.

If Iran had an aim to build ancient low tech crap like Type XXI submarine--- Iran could build it in 2-4 years.

But Iran want to build a really advanced MODERN submarine with displacement of 3000 tons---and this is much more than just building a sub with big displacement.

Iran needs to design 21st century advanced sonars, electronics, low noise engines, batteries, metals etc....---all those things that ancient low tech crap like U-boat or Type XXI lacked...---and of course designing, testing and producing these advanced 21st century technologies will take 10 years.

If Germany was so advanced in 1940s...then why the best they can build today is Type 212 with displacement of 1800 tons??? Maybe you can make comparison between Type XXI sub and modern Type 212?

Comparing U-boat to Iranian 3000ton advanced sub is the same as comparing ancient crap like German tank Tiger II to modern tank Leopard 2A7. (and then say: look...Germans could build Tiger II in 1940s while Iran needs 10 years to build Leopard 2A7)

Turkey GDP 850B
Iran GDP 440B

If you want to see real size of economic output --you should not look at nominal GDP, because it depend on the exchange rate of the domestic currency...and exchange rates tend to fluctuate....Countries that are heavily engaged in international trade and have a large influx of foreign currency coming from exports or foreign investments----- experience appreciation of their domestic currency and thus larger nominal GDP.

Because of Iranian rials depreciation and Turkish lira devaluation----nominal GDP of both Turkey and Iran are lower today than in your figures.

This is clearly evident by the GDP growth in Iran from 1990-2005 and the GDP growth of Turkey during the same period.

I clearly said 1990-2005 period for GDP historical reference.

You better look at GDP PPP to compare real output of economies.

In 1990 Iran had a GDP PPP of 414bln$ and Turkey in 1990 had a GDP PPP of 389bln$

In 2016 Iranian GDP PPP was 1,55 trl$ and Turkish GDP PPP in 2016 was 1,9 trl$

Note: Turkey has no significant energy (oil/gas) like Iran does.

But Turkey has something Iran lacks....Turkish cities are located close to the sea, so Turkey can engage in maritime trade with the outside world, while Iranian cities are located far away from the ports and you need to build expensive infrastructure in the mountains from Tehran to Bandar Abbas + add additional transportation costs to the final costs of the goods.

Turkey has geographical access to the huge markets of EU and Eastern Europe---something Iran lacks

 

[Sina-1]

Does everyone here have reading comprehension issues?

 

[TheImmortal]

LOL---these destroyers were being built for many years before construction was finished simultaneously in the last year and these ships were delivered to the Navy at the same time.

To place this growth in perspective, in the eight years between 2010 and 2018, 24 destroyers were launched from Chinese shipyards, consisting of four 052Cs, 16 052Ds (the three most recent being extended length variants), and four 055 large destroyers.


On to your next point 1980’s China the majority of its population lived in rural lands doing mostly farming/agriculture and it was not a consumer based economy (still transitioning today) so that population labor number didn’t mean as much as your thinking.

China GDP 191.1 billion USD (1980)
Iran GDP 94.36 billion USD (1980)

On to your next point calling U-boats and Type XXI “low tech crap” shows your immaturity. For their time they were the equivalent of Fateh submarines. Germany had to build these without access to technologies like supercomputers, editing design software, mass production of various components, and access to international markets to buy goods for cheap.

So yes a U-Boat today might not be advanced, but the feat is much more impressive. Similar to landing on the moon in 1960’s with a computer that had the power of a modern day calculator and landing on the moon in 2020 with the aid of 3D printing and artificial intelligence. Which is more impressive for its time?

So again Iran has access (even under sanctions) to technologies that make submarine building much easier.

On to your last point, a lot of different numbers and calculations only to prove my point. Between 1990-2005 Turkish economy outpaced Iranian economy. Iran was free to trade with Europe to its heart content, but was largely happy with being a petro-country and avoiding deepening ties with “Western” countries. Short sightedness.

Any numbers about post 2010 sanctions is meaningless and off topic as that was not the discussion at hand. The period in question was why the economy of IR of Iran did not succeed in jump starting after Iraq war and that is due to policies implemented by IR that hampered growth.

Furthermore, if you are going to compare GDP to GDP at least strip out energy of Iran to get a true sense of goods/services growth of both countries.

Lastly Turkey being close to water is a mute point. Iran has extensive rail network throughout the country and cost of freight shipping via rail is extremely inexpensive so Iran transferring goods from Tehran/Tabriz/Isfahan to Bandar Abbas for export is quite in expensive. Yes Tehran is not on the water, but the difference is marginal. What helps Turkey is the Mediterranean Sea, but Iran also benefits immensely from Persian Gulf. Without it, Iran would have to costly shipping for its oil/goods.

 

[GWXP]

Lastly Turkey being close to water is a mute point. Iran has extensive rail network throughout the country and cost of freight shipping via rail is extremely inexpensive so Iran transferring goods from Tehran/Tabriz/Isfahan to Bandar Abbas for export is quite in expensive. Yes Tehran is not on the water, but the difference is marginal. What helps Turkey is the Mediterranean Sea, but Iran also benefits immensely from Persian Gulf. Without it, Iran would have to costly shipping for its oil/goods.

This is an article by US think tank Stratfor.
Geopolitics of Iran: Holding the Center of a mountainous fortress
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/geopolitics-iran-holding-center-mountain-fortress

Quote: "
" But there is a deeper geographic problem. Iran has a huge population mostly located in rugged mountains. Mountainous regions are rarely prosperous. The cost of transportation makes the development of industry difficult. Sparsely populated mountain regions are generally poor. Heavily populated mountain regions, when they exist, are much poorer.

Iran’s geography and large population make substantial improvements in its economic life difficult.

The absence of inhabitable plains means that any industrial plant must develop in regions where the cost of infrastructure tends to undermine the benefits. Oil keeps Iran from sinking even deeper, but it alone cannot catapult Iran out of its condition."

^^This is a disadvantage Turkey lacks, since most of its large cities are located close to the sea and maritime trade (which is the cheapest way of transporting goods)is much more developed in Turkey than in Iran.

I think you will agree that think tanks like Stratfor know and understand more than you or me

 

[TheImmortal]

This is an article by US think tank Stratfor.
Geopolitics of Iran: Holding the Center of a mountainous fortress
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/geopolitics-iran-holding-center-mountain-fortress

Quote: "
" But there is a deeper geographic problem. Iran has a huge population mostly located in rugged mountains. Mountainous regions are rarely prosperous. The cost of transportation makes the development of industry difficult. Sparsely populated mountain regions are generally poor. Heavily populated mountain regions, when they exist, are much poorer.

Iran’s geography and large population make substantial improvements in its economic life difficult.

The absence of inhabitable plains means that any industrial plant must develop in regions where the cost of infrastructure tends to undermine the benefits. Oil keeps Iran from sinking even deeper, but it alone cannot catapult Iran out of its condition."

^^This is a disadvantage Turkey lacks, since most of its large cities are located close to the sea and maritime trade (which is the cheapest way of transporting goods)is much more developed in Turkey than in Iran.

I think you will agree that think tanks like Stratfor know and understand more than you or me

That’s funny because Stratfor apparently has never been to Iran. Because up until recently most of the factories were located in Tehran and the government had to order them to go to the outskirts due to the population and risk of earthquake. So now more and more factories are relocating elsewhere.

I am not saying that Turkey has no advantage having Istanbul right on the water. But my friend this article does not quantify the cost. Rather just assumptions. For example, Las Vegas shouldn’t exist since it has no access to water and is in the middle of the desert. But yet it does and is profitable. I am sure it would be more profitable if it had a better location , but that is besides the point.

Iran’s extensive rail network means that goods can easily be transported throughout Iran.

I think we can agree that while Tehran being in mountainous region (among other cities) it may affect GDP output somewhat or cost rise in cost of goods. But it is not enough to explain the major difference between the two economies growth path throughout the 90’s and early 00’s

 

[GWXP]

But it is not enough to explain the major difference between the two economies growth path throughout the 90’s and early 00’s

You can also look at projections up to 2050...Turkey will still have an economy that is 30% larger than Iran's
https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/issues/economy/the-world-in-2050.html

 

[skyshadow]

 

[TheImmortal]

View attachment 596430
You can also look at projections up to 2050...Turkey will still have an economy that is 30% larger than Iran's
https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/issues/economy/the-world-in-2050.html

No one can accurately predict the economy of a country that far in the future.

Also if Iran integrates into the world economy it will go through an economic boom the likes of which hasn’t been seen. You are forgetting that 80MM population has been completely closed off to US investment and significantly closed off to EU investment.

So Iran could pass Turkey in next 20 years if sanctions are lifted and ties with US are normalized.

 

[skyshadow]

 

[TheImmortal]

Next phase I would like to see Russia and China bring their aircraft carriers into the PG. Then with Iran hold a major air and air defense war game.

In this war game, Russia and China would play the role of NATO and US and attempt to break into Iranian airspace and Iranian aircraft and Iranian air defense would seek to repel them.

I think it would be great practice for all parties and give Iran a chance to test its radars and defenses against a large amount of (60+) modern 4th and 5th gen aircraft. Basically a stimulated air attack on Iran.

Maybe it will allow Iran to spot holes and blind spots in its defense architecture. Only question would be if Iran can trust Russia/China with this type of war game as they will also be actively collecting data on Iran’s capabilities to calibrate their own war machines.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Iran could have been MUCH further ahead. Unfortunately the early IR of Iran was filled more with religious zeal than pragmatic nature found today.

Iran was actually under VERY LITTLE sanctions post Revolution. Just US trade embargo, but even that didn’t stop firms like Dick Cheney’s Halliburton from having office in Tehran in 90’s.

Instead of attracting massive foreign investment and branching into international trade. Iran was too busy following the “neither East nor West” slogan and was suspicious of any major foreign investment by any country.

This hurt Iran greatly later on when more and more sanctions were put on it. Too little too late to start attracting foreign investment outside of energy sector.

This is clearly evident by the GDP growth in Iran from 1990-2005 and the GDP growth of Turkey during the same period.

The living standard of Iran might be a little better under Iran's Shah, but no way it could build the foundation of an independent military industrial complex.

The current Iranian regime has built up an independent military industrial complex, and this truly paves the road for Iran as true player in the world's future geopolitics.

The huge missile force of Iran shows it is a true independent player of its own, and very few non-P5 countries could achieve this impressive feat.

 

[skyshadow]

Next phase I would like to see Russia and China bring their aircraft carriers into the PG. Then with Iran hold a major air and air defense war game.

In this war game, Russia and China would play the role of NATO and US and attempt to break into Iranian airspace and Iranian aircraft and Iranian air defense would seek to repel them.

I think it would be great practice for all parties and give Iran a chance to test its radars and defenses against a large amount of (60+) modern 4th and 5th gen aircraft. Basically a stimulated air attack on Iran.

Maybe it will allow Iran to spot holes and blind spots in its defense architecture. Only question would be if Iran can trust Russia/China with this type of war game as they will also be actively collecting data on Iran’s capabilities to calibrate their own war machines.

agreed, in other hand Iran can get alot more out of there fighter, i mean the F-35s are right here in Qatar and SA, Kuwait had F-22s for years Iran got way more radar data on F-22s and F-35s and way quicker than Russia and China ever could, some times US air force is less then 100 km away from our air space.

 

[TheImmortal]

agreed, in other hand Iran can get alot more out of there fighter, i mean the F-35s are right here in Qatar and SA, Kuwait had F-22s for years Iran got way more radar data on F-22s and F-35s and way quicker than Russia and China ever could, some times US air force is less then 100 km away from our air space.

F-35 and F-22 fly with radar deflectors during peace time, even in Syria.

So any data Iran collects is borderline useless as the RCS being shown on radar is purposely inflated.