Iranian Navy | News and Discussions

[TheImmortal]

The tonnage has been updated to 3000ton (roughly the same as kilo class).
The bottleneck is most likely metallurgy that can withstand much deeper dives. It can’t be simulated! It requires rigorous and time consuming physical testing. If they don’t have the required alloy today then 15 years is not a bad estimate.

from a metallurgy perspective, the tech jump from a small sub to a kilo cll class sub is much greater than kilo class sub to a nuclear driven one.

Germany built 703 U-boat submarines bigger than Fateh in a period of decade basically 80 years ago. Iran is at 1 after a decade with all the advancement and technology that has happened in 80 years.

Too much pandering and apologists on this board. Iran war machine capability is extremely slow.

It excels in missiles (even that capability has slowed down after Tehrani Moghadam’s death).

Soon you guys will understand what I understand.

 

[Draco.IMF]

Germany built 703 U-boat submarines bigger than Fateh in a period of decade basically 80 years ago. Iran is at 1 after a decade with all the advancement and technology that has happened in 80 years.

Too much pandering and apologists on this board. Iran war machine capability is extremely slow.

It excels in missiles (even that capability has slowed down after Tehrani Moghadam’s death).

Soon you guys will understand what I understand.

Your whining is not bearable, just take some antidepressants...

 

[Shams313]

Germany built 703 U-boat submarines bigger than Fateh in a period of decade basically 80 years ago. Iran is at 1 after a decade with all the advancement and technology that has happened in 80 years.

Too much pandering and apologists on this board. Iran war machine capability is extremely slow.

It excels in missiles (even that capability has slowed down after Tehrani Moghadam’s death).

Soon you guys will understand what I understand.

Brains gets saturated in certain stages wheres complex tech problems have to be solved (specially under sanction).
That doesn't mean they r slow rather it takes times to solve the problem.

both scientists and engineers facing a lot of uncertain issues either they have never faced or they r trying to add some extra feature they aren't capable off right now..as long as they aren't sit idle everything is okay. the apparent slow development may result in greater achievement.

in the end , it's all about time.

 

[TheImmortal]

Brains gets saturated in certain stages wheres complex tech problems have to be solved (specially under sanction).
That doesn't mean they r slow rather it takes times to solve the problem.

both scientists and engineers facing a lot of uncertain issues either they have never faced or they r trying to add some extra feature they aren't capable off right now..as long as they aren't sit idle everything is okay. the apparent slow development may result in greater achievement.

in the end , it's all about time.

You cannot tell me Iranian scientists today are somehow not as smart as Nazi scientists from 80 years ago. Every war machine had its struggle. The issue here is Iran talks about having a blue navy, but the rate it is developing its navy it would take another century to be formidable blue navy.

Germany during WW2 was under massive austerity measures paying the cost of WWI (hence why Nazi facism was able to come to power). The big difference is Nazi Germany had a war budget of 80+ billion dollars adjusted for inflation and Iran is somewhere between 20 billion officially, but maybe up to 40 billion unofficially.

 

[Blue In Green]

You cannot tell me Iranian scientists today are somehow not as smart as Nazi scientists from 80 years ago. Every war machine had its struggle. The issue here is Iran talks about having a blue navy, but the rate it is developing its navy it would take another century to be formidable blue navy.

Germany during WW2 was under massive austerity measures paying the cost of WWI (hence why Nazi facism was able to come to power). The big difference is Nazi Germany had a war budget of 80+ billion dollars adjusted for inflation and Iran is somewhere between 20 billion officially, but maybe up to 40 billion unofficially.

Damn, I didn't know the official Iranian defense budget was 20 billion and maybe up to 40 billion. Any thoughts as to why Iran is taking such an egregiously long time to make what is only a handle of ships and submarines? I know that sanctions play a significant role but that can't be the sole reason why Iran is just turning so few vessels each by year.

 

[TheImmortal]

Damn, I didn't know the official Iranian defense budget was 20 billion and maybe up to 40 billion. Any thoughts as to why Iran is taking such an egregiously long time to make what is only a handle of ships and submarines? I know that sanctions play a significant role but that can't be the sole reason why Iran is just turning so few vessels each by year.

The answer is simple, IRGC mafia bazi.

IRGC is at its heart a modern day mafia with heads of IRGC being dons answering only to Supreme Leader. IRGC hates seeing branches of artesh suck up funds and gain influence. Furthermore, core IRGC leadership remember Iran-Iraq vividly and Operation Prey Mantis where Iranian Navy was decimated with US Navy barely raising a finger. Remember at its time, Iranian Navy was considered operating state of the art equipment and ships.

In IRGC mindset they believe a blue water Navy is a waste of resources at the current time. Similar to how they believe a large and modern Iranian Air Force is a waste of time. Both branches are languishing. One of the key reasons IAF has not been replenished is because IRGC fights against by winning Rahbars ear saying such funds are a waste and better bang for your buck to focus on missiles.

Anyone applauding Iran for building 5-6 Mowj vessels since 2008 is losing sight of the bigger picture which is IRGC controls the direction of the Iranian military narrative.

Furthermore, thinking that’s impressive is ignoring the WW2 war machines production churning out ships and planes in massive numbers. Even the modern day war machine of China is adding ships at an ASTONISHING rate to its arsenal and is on par with US for number of combat vessels (though not on same level class wise).

Iran taking 10-15 years to build a kilo sub is quite frankly a joke. That is the time it takes to put up a damn nuclear reactor. Even Busher 2 will be ready before this kilo sub.

So key reasons for the delay IRGC control over Military funds, poor efficiency of Iranian shipyards, oil/arms/materials/technology sanctions, lack of high military budget.

Iran needs to have a military budget closer to 60 billion (I would like to see 80 billion) to adequately fund the different branches and IRGC vs artesh branches.

IRGC can always tap it’s massive mafia conglomerate of companies to pay for its own projects if they truly need funds. Artesh does not have that luxury.

Surely in this modern age with advanced computers/blueprints/technological advancements, Iran can build a Juliett class (3200 ton) submarine that the Soviet Union had in the 1960’s (basically 60 years ago) and not take 15 years to do it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliett-class_submarine

 

[Sina-1]

IRGC is at its heart a modern day mafia with heads of IRGC being dons answering only to Supreme Leader. IRGC hates seeing branches of artesh suck up funds and gain influence.

You are getting emotional because you don't what you are talking about. IRGC has saved Iran AND the entire region on numerous occasions, starting from Iran-Iraq war and as recently as destroying ISIS and Saudi intrusion in Yemen in a cost efficient manner. IRGC is a pragmatic no-bullshit organisation. They get the job done!

In IRGC mindset they believe a blue water Navy is a waste of resources at the current time. Similar to how they believe a large and modern Iranian Air Force is a waste of time.

Nobody has said that. That is your perception. IRGC always goes for the cheapest and most effective platform that gets the job done. And wether you like it or not, it is much more cost efficient with ballistic missiles, potent air defence, cruise missiles and UCAVs. However, IRGC has never claimed that blue water navy is a bad thing, but they are smart enough to understand that having blue navy just to have a blue navy is not a good enough reason.

Anyone applauding Iran for building 5-6 Mowj vessels since 2008 is losing sight of the bigger picture which is IRGC controls the direction of the Iranian military narrative.

No one is applauding. However, with new systems there is a certain incubation time. When it comes to mechanical products, that time cannot be compressed as much as it can with fields that are purely digital. Many aspects of mechanical engineering is also digital and hence Iran could enter completely new fields, rather quickly. However some fields such as metallurgy have very limited digital design tools and thus the testing you do is basically what has been done for 150 years.

Germany built 703 U-boat submarines bigger than Fateh in a period of decade basically 80 years ago. Iran is at 1 after a decade with all the advancement and technology that has happened in 80 years.

Germany started experimenting with submarines since 1850. That is almost 100 years of experience before WWII. That is three to four generations of engineers coming and going and slowly iterating and learning.
As I wrote before when it comes to some fields of mechanical engineering there are no feasible digital tools, hence no short cuts. You need to put the manual hours. Tensile and compression testing is to name a few.

Getting the right alloy is one thing. Then you need to construct gigantic steel mills to produce your alloy. This is no fvcking joke! Its not Kalehs "maste-moo-sir" production. 15 years is a bargin and really fast pace!!!!

Iran needs to have a military budget closer to 60 billion (I would like to see 80 billion) to adequately fund the different branches and IRGC vs artesh branches.

That would be marvellous, but people need food on their table as well.

IRGC can always tap it’s massive mafia conglomerate of companies to pay for its own projects if they truly need funds. Artesh does not have that luxury.

The reason for why IRGC developed a business branch was because of the vast corruption in Iranian economy where for every project that was getting ordered there was bokhor bokhor in every stage of the operation. Once again IRGC got the work done.

It excels in missiles (even that capability has slowed down after Tehrani Moghadam’s death).

That is because central development components of Missiles, Radars, EW and even UCAVs have big portion of digitalisations. Control systems are mostly digital. Managing big data from radars is digital. The sole reason Iran could bring down the RQ was because they could catch up to state of the art technology by digital iterations.

 

[Sineva]

The answer is simple, IRGC mafia bazi.

IRGC is at its heart a modern day mafia with heads of IRGC being dons answering only to Supreme Leader. IRGC hates seeing branches of artesh suck up funds and gain influence. Furthermore, core IRGC leadership remember Iran-Iraq vividly and Operation Prey Mantis where Iranian Navy was decimated with US Navy barely raising a finger. Remember at its time, Iranian Navy was considered operating state of the art equipment and ships.

In IRGC mindset they believe a blue water Navy is a waste of resources at the current time. Similar to how they believe a large and modern Iranian Air Force is a waste of time. Both branches are languishing. One of the key reasons IAF has not been replenished is because IRGC fights against by winning Rahbars ear saying such funds are a waste and better bang for your buck to focus on missiles.

Anyone applauding Iran for building 5-6 Mowj vessels since 2008 is losing sight of the bigger picture which is IRGC controls the direction of the Iranian military narrative.

Furthermore, thinking that’s impressive is ignoring the WW2 war machines production churning out ships and planes in massive numbers. Even the modern day war machine of China is adding ships at an ASTONISHING rate to its arsenal and is on par with US for number of combat vessels (though not on same level class wise).

Iran taking 10-15 years to build a kilo sub is quite frankly a joke. That is the time it takes to put up a damn nuclear reactor. Even Busher 2 will be ready before this kilo sub.

So key reasons for the delay IRGC control over Military funds, poor efficiency of Iranian shipyards, oil/arms/materials/technology sanctions, lack of high military budget.

Iran needs to have a military budget closer to 60 billion (I would like to see 80 billion) to adequately fund the different branches and IRGC vs artesh branches.

IRGC can always tap it’s massive mafia conglomerate of companies to pay for its own projects if they truly need funds. Artesh does not have that luxury.

Surely in this modern age with advanced computers/blueprints/technological advancements, Iran can build a Juliett class (3200 ton) submarine that the Soviet Union had in the 1960’s (basically 60 years ago) and not take 15 years to do it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliett-class_submarine

I`d hardly use the old juliett as a great example of what irans besat is the equivalent of,the kilo would be a far closer match and a huge leap forward technologically in every respect from the juliett.Not to mention that not only did the soviets,like the western nations,acquire the cream of nazi germanys advanced submarine designs in the aftermath of ww2 which gave them a huge technological leap forward,but that the russians had been building submarines for literally decades prior to this.By comparison iran had built only a tiny handful of indigenous experimental submarines,prior to beginning construction of the dprks yono [ghadir] class boats,the largest of which was the sole nahang class example which is credited with a displacement of 300-400 tonnes,tho considering that this boat is actually smaller than the 120 tonne ghadir and does not even possess torpedo tubes I would doubt this.Yet even this small locally produced boat was still a considerable industrial undertaking supposedly requiring the efforts of 220 researchers and more than 1.2 million hours of scientific work and production effort,it involved more than 49 academic,research and industrial centers as well as close to 200 industrial designs and 70 scientific papers.
To go from the license produced 120 tonne ghadir to the indigenous 500+ tonne fateh is a huge undertaking and a very impressive one,to then go from that to an indigenous 3000+ tonne boat would be an even larger undertaking.As it is the 500+ tonne fateh is likely the largest indigenous submarine built by any nation in the mena region.
Lastly its not just the size or displacement of the boat but how modern/state of the art it is ie how quiet it is,how deep it can dive and its under water endurance plus the capabilities of its detection and combat systems.Iran could certainly build something like the electroboat derived julietts,but it would be pretty worthless as a weapon,by comparison something in the body of revolution type hull design like the kilo but with all the added benefits of 21st century technology would be a whole different class of machine.

 

[PeeD]

The new Besat is a 3000+ ton, single hull AIP submarine with VLS. There is no submarine with such features available today.

So Iran is trying to jump to state of the art level from zero. It only has Kilos at hand to learn from, 70's level tech. as no top technology design was somehow captured or stolen like in the UAV and missile area.

This means huge efforts to write standards and get industry to a level to manufacture such reliable components.

The new sub must make sense and be competitive without being nuclear.

All this with a small budget.

 

[TruthHurtz]

The answer is simple, IRGC mafia bazi.

IRGC is at its heart a modern day mafia with heads of IRGC being dons answering only to Supreme Leader. IRGC hates seeing branches of artesh suck up funds and gain influence. Furthermore, core IRGC leadership remember Iran-Iraq vividly and Operation Prey Mantis where Iranian Navy was decimated with US Navy barely raising a finger. Remember at its time, Iranian Navy was considered operating state of the art equipment and ships.

In IRGC mindset they believe a blue water Navy is a waste of resources at the current time. Similar to how they believe a large and modern Iranian Air Force is a waste of time. Both branches are languishing. One of the key reasons IAF has not been replenished is because IRGC fights against by winning Rahbars ear saying such funds are a waste and better bang for your buck to focus on missiles.

Anyone applauding Iran for building 5-6 Mowj vessels since 2008 is losing sight of the bigger picture which is IRGC controls the direction of the Iranian military narrative.

Furthermore, thinking that’s impressive is ignoring the WW2 war machines production churning out ships and planes in massive numbers. Even the modern day war machine of China is adding ships at an ASTONISHING rate to its arsenal and is on par with US for number of combat vessels (though not on same level class wise).

Iran taking 10-15 years to build a kilo sub is quite frankly a joke. That is the time it takes to put up a damn nuclear reactor. Even Busher 2 will be ready before this kilo sub.

So key reasons for the delay IRGC control over Military funds, poor efficiency of Iranian shipyards, oil/arms/materials/technology sanctions, lack of high military budget.

Iran needs to have a military budget closer to 60 billion (I would like to see 80 billion) to adequately fund the different branches and IRGC vs artesh branches.

IRGC can always tap it’s massive mafia conglomerate of companies to pay for its own projects if they truly need funds. Artesh does not have that luxury.

Surely in this modern age with advanced computers/blueprints/technological advancements, Iran can build a Juliett class (3200 ton) submarine that the Soviet Union had in the 1960’s (basically 60 years ago) and not take 15 years to do it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliett-class_submarine

IRGC is right. Iranian conventional military will be bulldozed in any war against America regardless of investment. You're just flat out not capable of confronting superior conventional enemies. It's like a dwarf trying to dunk a 10-foot rim it just won't happen and it's best to play to your strengths then delude yourself with fantasies of some cold war-era military with a large procurement budget.

 

[Mithridates]

IRGC is right. Iranian conventional military will be bulldozed in any war against America regardless of investment. You're just flat out not capable of confronting superior conventional enemies. It's like a dwarf trying to dunk a 10-foot rim it just won't happen and it's best to play to your strengths then delude yourself with fantasies of some cold war-era military with a large procurement budget.

well i guess he is right and has a point, if WW II Germany with that defense budget can procure 700 submarines why Iran can't do so??
however there are several points in this discussion. first, how advanced is a fateh class compared to German U boats?? second how much costs to integrate those advanced features to a sub. i mean we don't know fateh's radar, sonar, navigation, optic, counter measurements and communication systems cost. the number could be very different, a fateh would cost several times more than U boats as those subs only had a primal sonars and periscope for whatever purpose they were built for.
but if the difference in costs is not that much i'm agree with @TheImmortal. if we had lets say 300 fateh we would threaten them by sending our subs near their land or their allies.

The new Besat is a 3000+ ton, single hull AIP submarine with VLS. There is no submarine with such features available today.

So Iran is trying to jump to state of the art level from zero. It only has Kilos at hand to learn from, 70's level tech. as no top technology design was somehow captured or stolen like in the UAV and missile area.

This means huge efforts to write standards and get industry to a level to manufacture such reliable components.

The new sub must make sense and be competitive without being nuclear.

All this with a small budget.

bro i have a question, if we are able to do this:

then we virtually are able to do this too?? right??:

this would be really helpful against ASW helicopters, it just need a little re-programming and a passive sonar homing. however i'm not sure if crotale has the ability of lock on after launch or not, i just refereed at it as an example.

 

[PeeD]

well i guess he is right and has a point, if WW II Germany with that defense budget can procure 700 submarines why Iran can't do so??
however there are several points in this discussion. first, how advanced is a fateh class compared to German U boats?? second how much costs to integrate those advanced features to a sub. i mean we don't know fateh's radar, sonar, navigation, optic, counter measurements and communication systems cost. the number could be very different, a fateh would cost several times more than U boats as those subs only had a primal sonars and periscope for whatever purpose they were built for.
but if the difference in costs is not that much i'm agree with @TheImmortal. if we had lets say 300 fateh we would threaten them by sending our subs near their land or their allies.



bro i have a question, if we are able to do this:

View attachment 595139

then we virtually are able to do this too?? right??:

View attachment 595147

this would be really helpful against ASW helicopters, it just need a little re-programming and a passive sonar homing. however i'm not sure if crotale has the ability of lock on after launch or not, i just refereed at it as an example.

No Crotale can't lock after launch nor can any air target be detected targeted from underwater.

Better just concentrate on the role of submarines.
With VLS silos for land attack cruise missiles, the Besat is already getting a capability normally limited to nuclear subs, de facto a strategic second strike capability. 20-30 CM's is a serious capability.

 

[TheImmortal]

well i guess he is right and has a point, if WW II Germany with that defense budget can procure 700 submarines why Iran can't do so??
however there are several points in this discussion. first, how advanced is a fateh class compared to German U boats?? second how much costs to integrate those advanced features to a sub. i mean we don't know fateh's radar, sonar, navigation, optic, counter measurements and communication systems cost. the number could be very different, a fateh would cost several times more than U boats as those subs only had a primal sonars and periscope for whatever purpose they were built for.
but if the difference in costs is not that much i'm agree with @TheImmortal. if we had lets say 300 fateh we would threaten them by sending our subs near their land or their allies.



bro i have a question, if we are able to do this:

View attachment 595139

then we virtually are able to do this too?? right??:

View attachment 595147

this would be really helpful against ASW helicopters, it just need a little re-programming and a passive sonar homing. however i'm not sure if crotale has the ability of lock on after launch or not, i just refereed at it as an example.

You can’t compare technological specifications today with something from 80 years ago.

At its time, German U Boats were state of the art and could travel all the way to Argentina. Something that Iranian Subs cannot do in this day and age.

Also factor in costs in 1940s of building these ships right now with mass production and global economy literally every raw material is much cheaper and available in larger quantities than in 1940s. Germany did this all under the back breaking economic depression caused by having to pay back the allies for WWI.

So a lot of apologists on this board making excuses. Congrats at this rate Iran will have 3 Besat by 2060. If the Republic is even standing.

You are getting emotional because you don't what you are talking about. IRGC has saved Iran AND the entire region on numerous occasions, starting from Iran-Iraq war and as recently as destroying ISIS and Saudi intrusion in Yemen in a cost efficient manner. IRGC is a pragmatic no-bullshit organisation. They get the job done!



Nobody has said that. That is your perception. IRGC always goes for the cheapest and most effective platform that gets the job done. And wether you like it or not, it is much more cost efficient with ballistic missiles, potent air defence, cruise missiles and UCAVs. However, IRGC has never claimed that blue water navy is a bad thing, but they are smart enough to understand that having blue navy just to have a blue navy is not a good enough reason.



No one is applauding. However, with new systems there is a certain incubation time. When it comes to mechanical products, that time cannot be compressed as much as it can with fields that are purely digital. Many aspects of mechanical engineering is also digital and hence Iran could enter completely new fields, rather quickly. However some fields such as metallurgy have very limited digital design tools and thus the testing you do is basically what has been done for 150 years.



Germany started experimenting with submarines since 1850. That is almost 100 years of experience before WWII. That is three to four generations of engineers coming and going and slowly iterating and learning.
As I wrote before when it comes to some fields of mechanical engineering there are no feasible digital tools, hence no short cuts. You need to put the manual hours. Tensile and compression testing is to name a few.

Getting the right alloy is one thing. Then you need to construct gigantic steel mills to produce your alloy. This is no fvcking joke! Its not Kalehs "maste-moo-sir" production. 15 years is a bargin and really fast pace!!!!



That would be marvellous, but people need food on their table as well.



The reason for why IRGC developed a business branch was because of the vast corruption in Iranian economy where for every project that was getting ordered there was bokhor bokhor in every stage of the operation. Once again IRGC got the work done.




That is because central development components of Missiles, Radars, EW and even UCAVs have big portion of digitalisations. Control systems are mostly digital. Managing big data from radars is digital. The sole reason Iran could bring down the RQ was because they could catch up to state of the art technology by digital iterations.

Again you have no idea what YOU are talking about. I have had family serve in IRGC and on the front lines of Iran-Iraq war.

Connections with upper IRGC leadership says it all. It’s all parti bazi. You want something done, reach out to a higher ranking IRGC person and he will get it done for you quickly...for a price.

So IRGC fighting “corruption” is laughable. Beshin sare jat bachee Jan. IRGC is one of the main reasons for corruption in Iran as they are now an economic oligarchy in Iran.

But believe whatever makes you happy. Khandedare. The only people getting emotional on this board are YOU guys. I pointed out that F-313 wouldn’t fly for 15 years when everyone on this board was saying it will fly 3 years after unveiling.

Nobody here looks at things objectively anymore it’s basically “rah rah Iran”. Meanwhile a damn border guard is still driving around in a pick up truck with zero protection.

If it takes Iran 30 years to build 3 Besat its a dud. They would be largely confined in the Indian Ocean like the current Kilos and attempting to attack the US fleet stationed there with no above surface cover (destroyers/fighter jets) they would be hunted down fast.

IRGC is right. Iranian conventional military will be bulldozed in any war against America regardless of investment. You're just flat out not capable of confronting superior conventional enemies. It's like a dwarf trying to dunk a 10-foot rim it just won't happen and it's best to play to your strengths then delude yourself with fantasies of some cold war-era military with a large procurement budget.

IRGC also lives off its current success. It’s current leadership refuses to change its mindset. And that is dangerous for the future. If you stay static in your beliefs you will only meet your own downfall.

nonetheless, the topic wasn’t wether IRGC is right or wrong. It was why is Iran’s Navy and Airforce so slow. It’s because IRGC steals the lion share of the funds.

Iran is trying to expand its Navy on bread crumbs budget.

 

[TruthHurtz]

well i guess he is right and has a point, if WW II Germany with that defense budget can procure 700 submarines why Iran can't do so??
however there are several points in this discussion. first, how advanced is a fateh class compared to German U boats?? second how much costs to integrate those advanced features to a sub. i mean we don't know fateh's radar, sonar, navigation, optic, counter measurements and communication systems cost. the number could be very different, a fateh would cost several times more than U boats as those subs only had a primal sonars and periscope for whatever purpose they were built for.
but if the difference in costs is not that much i'm agree with @TheImmortal. if we had lets say 300 fateh we would threaten them by sending our subs near their land or their allies.



bro i have a question, if we are able to do this:

View attachment 595139

then we virtually are able to do this too?? right??:

View attachment 595147

this would be really helpful against ASW helicopters, it just need a little re-programming and a passive sonar homing. however i'm not sure if crotale has the ability of lock on after launch or not, i just refereed at it as an example.

Germany lost and had centuries of experience in warfare and developing advanced arms. Iran only a few decades.

 

[TheImmortal]

Germany lost and had centuries of experience in warfare and developing advanced arms. Iran only a few decades.

Yeah and Iran had millennium experience in developing arms and warfare if you use the Persian Empire as an example. By your logic England and France should be massive military powers yet are former shells of themselves.

This board will make excuses for anything. People act like Iran was created 10 years ago. Iran had imperial Navy while Europe was a bunch of nation states with no power.