Iranian Navy | News and Discussions

[Arminkh]

Tracking and targeting 12 targets is plenty for a ship the size of Mowj. It doesn’t even have the firepower (without reloading) to engage 12 targets simultaneously. So I am not sure what the fuss is about.

Also wouldn’t there be a difference between detecting a ship at sea vs an aircraft due to curvature of the earth? How far (realistically) can a ship engage another ship using its F&C radar?

If you assume the radar is 15m above sea level on the ship, then the horizon is almost 14Km away. Now if you assume the ship it is trying to detect is also as tall and the radar can detect the radar tower of the other ship (rest of the ship is blocked by earth curvature) then 28 km is the farthest a radar can detect another ship through direct line of site.

 

[PeeD]

What's your thoughts on the current size of the Iranian Naval fleet?

Positive. Some power projection assets and learning/mastering.

Its like with the IRIAF. Equipment-intense services in Iran need to first master their respective technologies before growing.
The Navy is about to reach that point.
This will give Iran distant power projection capability, plus the power projecting force will be able to cause considerable damage if attacking or defending itself. So at a phase where the enemy is ready to attack and cause a conflict by sinking a Mowj class ship, it will now need to think about whether it can resist the punishment necessary to sink Khalije Fars class ships.
So robust power projection will come in the future, allowing Iran to set up no-flight zones and deny shipping in large areas.

As for the radar tracking statement:
A starring AESA such as the eagle eye will separate a part of its array, lets say a 10x10 element sub-array and really TRACK the target continuously if this is required. Digital beamforming and agile beam allow for this.

So the statement of 12 tracked targets per face array is in terms of AESA "realtime tracking". Normal tracking, "pre-AESA" tracking like stated with so many other radars will be hunderts (however at non-real time per every x second update sweep).

Also such AESA designs are modular scaleable. Doubling the array size can be easily done if the ship and budget can support it.

 

[Hack-Hook]

the specifications provided so far are not as good as I hoped. Not just range but detection and targeting. Other naval S-band AESA radars I have seen can track tens/hundreds times more. But I suppose this radar and it's specifications are good enough for mowj size frigates. Let's not forget, they're only around 1200tons!

To be honest those numbers are not even good for a Kaman class boat .tomorrow warfare main weapon is battle scenario awareness and only be able to track 3 target on each side won't cut it . specially when you look at kamand you don't see a radar on top of it and it seems use the ships radar and honestly tracking only 3 target on each side is somehow lacking.

Tracking and targeting 12 targets is plenty for a ship the size of Mowj. It doesn’t even have the firepower (without reloading) to engage 12 targets simultaneously. So I am not sure what the fuss is about.

Also wouldn’t there be a difference between detecting a ship at sea vs an aircraft due to curvature of the earth? How far (realistically) can a ship engage another ship using its F&C radar?

Tracking even targeting 12 is not that much if the radar is AESA it must be able to track far more than that as each AESA cells can act as one single radar . and the targets are not supposed to only be aircraft ,it must track incoming missiles and surface target . its supposed not only control the missiles but also fajr gun and kamand CIWS.

12 won't cut it.

So the statement of 12 tracked targets per face array is in terms of AESA "realtime tracking". Normal tracking, "pre-AESA" tracking like stated with so many other radars will be hunderts (however at non-real time per every x second update sweep).

The problem is its not 12 per side the stated number is 3 per side

 

[PeeD]

The problem is its not 12 per side the stated number is 3 per side

If thats right, then they are just realistic: You wont activate sub-arrays if not really necessary, that weakens your main array and its detection range. You do it once something is in attack range, at closer ranges where a 10x10/20x20 sub array will be sufficient in oder not to dedicate too many elements away from your main array search.
For engagment that would also include fine track (@ instant update rate) and the data-link, illumination function is performed by the CW mechanical antenna working with the AESA position information.

 

[sahureka2]

No, you are wrong my friend... Sahand Frigate uses 4 DESA Bonyan 4.0 Iranian engines each can produce 5000 hp (combined power of 20000 hp).

You can not reach even half of Sahand's max speed of 34 knots (64 km/h) with four CAT 3516B engines. Simply because each CAT 3516B engines can produce a max of 2000 hp.

So, my guess would be that this 2000 hp CAT engine is used for electricity generation.

https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/...-lesser-regulated-non-regulated/18398166.html

It does not seem very logical to use at least 2 x 2000 bhp engines as electricity generators, also because in the same series of photos published in the recent passaro also in this discussion, it was possible to see other engines of green color that those yes, could be considered electricity generator

For good information, the Caterpillar 3516 is made in different versions, the most powerful develops 3285 bhp thathttps://www.depco.com/caterpillar-3516-marine-engines/ certainly four engines of this type can not develop at the Sahand the 34 knots you indicate (since currently it has not been shown that he managed to develop during the tests), however, four engines of this version of the Caterpillar 3516 would develop over 13500 bhp, which however could be sufficient to bring the Sahand close to 30 knots (28/29 knots).
These photos appeared in official form during a visit to Sahand under construction, so I think they are true.
The other way around, to affirm that the engines are the DESA Bonyan 4.0 - 5000 bhp, they must show new photos of the engine room where it will be possible to recognize them.
I would be really grateful to be able to view a photo with the Bonyan installed, as it would be a further step to free itself completely from foreign supplies.

 

[Hack-Hook]

If thats right, then they are just realistic: You wont activate sub-arrays if not really necessary, that weakens your main array and its detection range. You do it once something is in attack range, at closer ranges where a 10x10/20x20 sub array will be sufficient in oder not to dedicate too many elements away from your main array search.
For engagment that would also include fine track (@ instant update rate) and the data-link, illumination function is performed by the CW mechanical antenna working with the AESA position information.

you see they also announced it as fire control radar . and you usually wont engage targets 200km away , you want to use iy against incoming targets if you only track 12 target it means you are aware of only 12 ship , missile, boat, helicopter and anything else in area , so if enemy send in one other target for example fire an Ashm you're not aware of it till it hit you and so you can't make any defense against it.
tracking three target on each side means if 3 enemy helicopter come from for example port side and each fire one anti-ship missile toward you now the port side of the radar have 6 target to track and it simply can't do that so it forget three target and only track the 3 original helicopters and the missiles for example if they are Exocet come to you unchallenged because you can't track them the situation get worse if you already tracking a fishing boat 20km away on that side and one of your own ship on that side . you can guess in a complicated battlefield how the situation can even get worse.

 

[WinterNights]

In the below video, at around 00:32 , the reporter said the radars can gather information from hundreds of targets.

So it seems until some officials numbers come out, we can't really rely much on the reporters as they appear to create numbers out of thin air.

 

[OldTwilight]

you see they also announced it as fire control radar . and you usually wont engage targets 200km away , you want to use iy against incoming targets if you only track 12 target it means you are aware of only 12 ship , missile, boat, helicopter and anything else in area , so if enemy send in one other target for example fire an Ashm you're not aware of it till it hit you and so you can't make any defense against it.
tracking three target on each side means if 3 enemy helicopter come from for example port side and each fire one anti-ship missile toward you now the port side of the radar have 6 target to track and it simply can't do that so it forget three target and only track the 3 original helicopters and the missiles for example if they are Exocet come to you unchallenged because you can't track them the situation get worse if you already tracking a fishing boat 20km away on that side and one of your own ship on that side . you can guess in a complicated battlefield how the situation can even get worse.

don't except our navy to jump from "no detection capability" to " USA Navy level detection and reaction capability" ....
anyway , without air support , this ship can't do much thing ....


IMO the worst enemy of navy in near future are smart UCAVs which can detect and target them from long range without putting the attacker on any real risk ....

 

[PeeD]

you see they also announced it as fire control radar . and you usually wont engage targets 200km away , you want to use iy against incoming targets if you only track 12 target it means you are aware of only 12 ship , missile, boat, helicopter and anything else in area , so if enemy send in one other target for example fire an Ashm you're not aware of it till it hit you and so you can't make any defense against it.
tracking three target on each side means if 3 enemy helicopter come from for example port side and each fire one anti-ship missile toward you now the port side of the radar have 6 target to track and it simply can't do that so it forget three target and only track the 3 original helicopters and the missiles for example if they are Exocet come to you unchallenged because you can't track them the situation get worse if you already tracking a fishing boat 20km away on that side and one of your own ship on that side . you can guess in a complicated battlefield how the situation can even get worse.

The Damavand with the Asr radar could track 100 targets, old Jamaran at least 30.

Its a computing issue.

But none of these, basically only very advanced PESA or AESA can continuously track a target.

The new radar can track a target with lets say 100 milliseconds update rate while the Asr and Jamran had a update rate of say 10 seconds.
The main array of the eagle eye will track hundrets of targets with a update rate of say 4 seconds.

So only approaching AshMs that need to be attacked and an aircraft that is about to being hit 5 seconds before impact.

I hope it is now understandable what I mean.

Now let me add something on the potential future destroyer:
With the eagle eye AESA and considering the rather small size of the Iranian ship I would recommend the Sayyad-3 as naval SAM.
I'm not a fan of the current large western destroyer trend and want Iran to go for smaller but well armed and automated ships of around 3000 tons max.

One front VLS with 32 120km range Sayyad-3 where the hull permits a VLS. Plus 2 x 3 70km Sayyad-3 horizontal stored quad launchers on decks where no depth for a VLS is available/economic.
32 Sayyad-3 + 24 Sayyad-2 plus 3 Kamad and 1 76mm CIWS.
That would be better supported by the current array size Cheshme Oghab "fire control" AESA.
The Bavar-373 is much larger, heavier and more expensive.

120km of the Sayyad-3 would be sufficient areal defense capability for a 3000t ship.

 

[scythian500]

you see they also announced it as fire control radar . and you usually wont engage targets 200km away , you want to use iy against incoming targets if you only track 12 target it means you are aware of only 12 ship , missile, boat, helicopter and anything else in area , so if enemy send in one other target for example fire an Ashm you're not aware of it till it hit you and so you can't make any defense against it.
tracking three target on each side means if 3 enemy helicopter come from for example port side and each fire one anti-ship missile toward you now the port side of the radar have 6 target to track and it simply can't do that so it forget three target and only track the 3 original helicopters and the missiles for example if they are Exocet come to you unchallenged because you can't track them the situation get worse if you already tracking a fishing boat 20km away on that side and one of your own ship on that side . you can guess in a complicated battlefield how the situation can even get worse.

They also mentioned Eagle Eye capability to track 100 targets simultaneously!

«چشم عقاب» ایرانی دوربردتر از پیشرفته‌ترین رادار اروپایی/ کشف و رهگیری ۱۰۰ هدف دریایی و هوایی با ۴ هزار اِلِمان +عکس

 

[VEVAK]

The Damavand with the Asr radar could track 100 targets, old Jamaran at least 30.

Its a computing issue.

But none of these, basically only very advanced PESA or AESA can continuously track a target.

The new radar can track a target with lets say 100 milliseconds update rate while the Asr and Jamran had a update rate of say 10 seconds.
The main array of the eagle eye will track hundrets of targets with a update rate of say 4 seconds.

So only approaching AshMs that need to be attacked and an aircraft that is about to being hit 5 seconds before impact.

I hope it is now understandable what I mean.

Now let me add something on the potential future destroyer:
With the eagle eye AESA and considering the rather small size of the Iranian ship I would recommend the Sayyad-3 as naval SAM.
I'm not a fan of the current large western destroyer trend and want Iran to go for smaller but well armed and automated ships of around 3000 tons max.

One front VLS with 32 120km range Sayyad-3 where the hull permits a VLS. Plus 2 x 3 70km Sayyad-3 horizontal stored quad launchers on decks where no depth for a VLS is available/economic.
32 Sayyad-3 + 24 Sayyad-2 plus 3 Kamad and 1 76mm CIWS.
That would be better supported by the current array size Cheshme Oghab "fire control" AESA.
The Bavar-373 is much larger, heavier and more expensive.

120km of the Sayyad-3 would be sufficient areal defense capability for a 3000t ship.

At the end of the day ships don't come with a single radar systems and an AESA like the Eagle Eye is likely just a single radar in a network of radars meant to give more accurate and faster targeting capability and faster data when tracking!

Clearly if you can target 12 then with a proper programing you can track far more especial with the high speeds of even S banded electronically scanned array's (IF you have the programing down but that is also something Iran can continue to upgrade in time if the proper hardware is already in place.)
Also at those speeds you don't need live tracking of each target because with the proper programing once the location is detected by your frequency beam's it gets stored in the computer with the potential distance it can travel in a fixed amount of time and you come back to it to keep tracking hell with the proper programing even for targeting you don't need to continuously stay fixed on it and at best you shorten the time set for targeting
So with Electronically scanned array's what's important is that you put in the right hardware at the start so future software upgrades and upgrades in for example data processing will allow you to enhance the capability of your radar without changing hardware

And an electronically scanned S band in terms of bandwidth is fast enough that future software upgrades to have great effect in enhance your targeting and tracking capability


Iran's Navy has done a great job especially with the budget given to them and unlike IRIAF they didn't sit around waiting for someone to hand them stuff and they didn't stay fixated on overhaul or simply a handful of projects.

They worked on Anti Ship missiles, Torpedo's, Mines, Frigates, FAC, Hovercrafts, submarines, New infrastructure including new R&D sites and test sites, New research vessels, various support vessels, New Radars, engines,..... They started out with reverse engineering and upgrading the most capable working ship they had at their disposal and are now moving on towards designing and developing platforms more capable than anything the country has ever had in it's fleet and they've built weapons that are more advanced than anything we have ever had.....

While the IRIAF hasn't even bothered to reverse engineer the F-14 let alone design an Iranian platform superior to it's F-4's nor have they even attempted to reverse engineer their C-130's and the fact that even the MOST advanced UAV's and UCAV's in Iran's fleet are IRGC UAV's and UCAV's says it all and to me it shows that this neither about technology or funding and sadly since the death of Shahid Sattari Iran's Air Force has had the wrong mentality and has been stuck on the weakest combat engine and platforms it's had since the mid 90's and by comparison to the Navy it would be like the Navy getting stuck it's FAC since the 90's and the fact that Iran's Air Defense Unites only blossomed after separating from the Air Force is yet another indication

What Iran's Air Force should be doing today should of been more along the lines of building a large fleet of large UCAV's capable of 2 1000lb bombs or Air to Air missiles with a high speed UCAV mainly for operation within 250km of their bases for intercept and Close Combat missions + UCAV's for strike missions up to 800km and focused it's efforts on manned fighters on producing ~12 larger more capable fighters like the F15

 

[skyshadow]

They also mentioned Eagle Eye capability to track 100 targets simultaneously!

«چشم عقاب» ایرانی دوربردتر از پیشرفته‌ترین رادار اروپایی/ کشف و رهگیری ۱۰۰ هدف دریایی و هوایی با ۴ هزار اِلِمان +عکس

i think it will be 4844. 1211 radar on each side.

 

[scythian500]

i think it will be 4844. 1211 radar on each side.

how come?

 

[skyshadow]

At the end of the day ships don't come with a single radar systems and an AESA like the Eagle Eye is likely just a single radar in a network of radars meant to give more accurate and faster targeting capability and faster data when tracking!

Clearly if you can target 12 then with a proper programing you can track far more especial with the high speeds of even S banded electronically scanned array's (IF you have the programing down but that is also something Iran can continue to upgrade in time if the proper hardware is already in place.)
Also at those speeds you don't need live tracking of each target because with the proper programing once the location is detected by your frequency beam's it gets stored in the computer with the potential distance it can travel in a fixed amount of time and you come back to it to keep tracking hell with the proper programing even for targeting you don't need to continuously stay fixed on it and at best you shorten the time set for targeting
So with Electronically scanned array's what's important is that you put in the right hardware at the start so future software upgrades and upgrades in for example data processing will allow you to enhance the capability of your radar without changing hardware

And an electronically scanned S band in terms of bandwidth is fast enough that future software upgrades to have great effect in enhance your targeting and tracking capability


Iran's Navy has done a great job especially with the budget given to them and unlike IRIAF they didn't sit around waiting for someone to hand them stuff and they didn't stay fixated on overhaul or simply a handful of projects.

They worked on Anti Ship missiles, Torpedo's, Mines, Frigates, FAC, Hovercrafts, submarines, New infrastructure including new R&D sites and test sites, New research vessels, various support vessels, New Radars, engines,..... They started out with reverse engineering and upgrading the most capable working ship they had at their disposal and are now moving on towards designing and developing platforms more capable than anything the country has ever had in it's fleet and they've built weapons that are more advanced than anything we have ever had.....

While the IRIAF hasn't even bothered to reverse engineer the F-14 let alone design an Iranian platform superior to it's F-4's nor have they even attempted to reverse engineer their C-130's and the fact that even the MOST advanced UAV's and UCAV's in Iran's fleet are IRGC UAV's and UCAV's says it all and to me it shows that this neither about technology or funding and sadly since the death of Shahid Sattari Iran's Air Force has had the wrong mentality and has been stuck on the weakest combat engine and platforms it's had since the mid 90's and by comparison to the Navy it would be like the Navy getting stuck it's FAC since the 90's and the fact that Iran's Air Defense Unites only blossomed after separating from the Air Force is yet another indication

What Iran's Air Force should be doing today should of been more along the lines of building a large fleet of large UCAV's capable of 2 1000lb bombs or Air to Air missiles with a high speed UCAV mainly for operation within 250km of their bases for intercept and Close Combat missions + UCAV's for strike missions up to 800km and focused it's efforts on manned fighters on producing ~12 larger more capable fighters like the F15

IRGC Probably is working on a larger UAV project for its navy.

how come?

will you can count them. its 39 rows and on the left you have the number of radars in each row.

If the model does not change

 

[scythian500]

IRGC Probably is working on a larger UAV project for its navy.

will you can count them. its 39 rows and on the left you have the number of radars in each row.

View attachment 525821

If the model does not change

Seems IRGC and Navy are taking Persian Gulf Battle 2 animation as their target!! There are such UAVs on board of Velayat destroyer in the movie..