TheImmortal
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Chickens coming home to roost?
It's strange but it's an attack that resulted in deaths.
Seems the Kurds are having a tough time in Iraq lately
Seems kind of sketchy, you are two armed Arab Israelis and you decide to stage a terrorist attack on a road?
New Recruit
As I've guessed you don't have enough courage to honestly answer my question. You only answered question #1 firmly, while some of the other questions you did not dare to answer and some of your answers were vague, unclear and impressed to avoid questions with answers that were too far from the point of the question.Well, it may sound "messy" to you, but I've yet to see you make a decisive counter-point.
Just a subjective impression stemming from subjective perception of Russian policy.
And yet, what I did was to address your comments paragraph for paragraph, in addition to actually setting some historic facts on the Iran-Iraq war straight which you appeared to have been misinformed on by western sources. As for self-contradiction, I will disagree.
I can't take this kind of ad hominem input very seriously in this discussion. Issuing outlandish accusations with no connection to what I actually wrote, likening proper fact-based analysis with "I"SIS behaviour... Implicitly equating Russia with Daesh. Come on please, in order to convince you'll need better arguments than that.
No. How about you?
May I remind you that you truncated Rahbar's quote to remove the part where he blasted the US as the actual source behind the conflict. And while he advocated peace, he did not call out Russia but the American regime as the responsible party. So I'd like to know what's insulting about debunking US-orchestrated propaganda relative to this war. Following the logic of Rahbar's words, doing so should contribute to neutralizing the very source of tensions in Ukraine, should it not?
And I must also remind you once again that those in Iran who are siding with Ukraine, are the same reformists who constitute the most skeptical and critical elements towards Rahbar. This right here is a fact, but sadly you seem not to be acknowledging it, nor to be explaining how it fits with your position.
Those videos you shared, and which I commented one by one, were from the pro-Ukrainian side. And for God's sake, they included scenes of tear gas or some other non-lethal rounds being fired towards protesters, and this being then disingenuously portrayed as some sort of a terrible crime! I mean, had you carefully watched these particular ones before sharing them?
Yes, two of them were showing real civilian casualties, and my first reaction was to deplore the tragedy. However, as I explained you need more than just pictures of killed civilians to prove there's been a war crime. Otherwise, you might as well endorse terrorist propaganda during the Syrian war, where plenty of such tragic cases were shown and presented as proof that the Syrian government and its allies have a policy of systematically and deliberately wiping out civilian populations, when in fact, these civilians could as well have fallen simply because they had the bad luck of being located too close to terrorist elements when a strike took place whose intention it was to hit terrorists, not civilians.
Please go ahead and show us the evidence that these were the actual targets of Russian strikes. You understand that civilians were killed in the Iran-Iraq war on both sides, during the Syrian was as well, and so on. Because zero civilian casualties unfortunately is practically impossible to achieve in a conflict of this scale, especially in urban settings.
What makes you a criminal is not just the civilian losses per se, you become a criminal if you are targeting civilians directly, with the aim of killing them, or if you are completely negligent and don't care about their presence in the vicinity of military targets you hit. So since you are of the belief Russia killed them on purpose and that it was not a case of undesired collateral damage, please share with us your evidence to this effect. I would genuinely like to see it.
Kindly don't alter my words. Nowhere did I claim I don't care, I asked for undeniable evidence of large scale massacres of civilians at the hands of Russian armed forces, because I have not seen such, even when consulting Ukrainian sources. What I have seen though, are several fraudulent allegations that were definitely shown to be wrong - like that Ukrainian APC crushing a car, with the APC being falsely passed off as Russian. So I'm waiting for and am open to any solid evidence. Why should I not be entitled to skepticism so long as there's no definitive evidence, but mostly hearsay and claims by NATO and their supporters, which in the past were proven to be baseless in so many cases?
This aside, if my independent country chose to join NATO or anything along those lines, it would mean that it sold out its independence, and I would staunchly oppose such a move. Especially knowing NATO's sinister designs for my country. If this led to war, then I'd not just denounce the aggressor, but I'd also be clear about the fact that a traitor sell out government in my own country unnecessarily brought this upon us. Thank God that's something the Islamic Republic will never do as long as liberals are kept away from key institutions such as Leadership, IRGC etc.
By the way, what's your stance on the mass killings of communists, socialists, purported communists and socialists as well as their sympathizers after the 1965 coup in Indonesia, where up to 1,5 millions civilians, including women, young girls and boys, elderly were massacred extra-judicially by the military, as well as by mobs which at times were deploying near "I"SIS-level violence, with American, European and even Isra"el"i help? Just curious to know.
By the way, what's your stance on the mass killings of communists, socialists, purported communists and socialists as well as their sympathizers after the 1965 coup in Indonesia, where up to 1,5 millions civilians, including women, young girls and boys, elderly were massacred extra-judicially by the military, as well as by mobs which at times were deploying near "I"SIS-level violence, with American, European and even Isra"el"i help? Just curious to know.
I should not be surprised that this hemorrhoid has popped up in Ukraine.Look who's been back in Ukraine lately...
If you're unfamiliar with this France-based zionist agitator, here's a partial overview of his past activities:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iranian-chill-thread.283137/post-13290937
@WudangMaster
US/Israeli propagandaEXCLUSIVE Iran struck Iraq target over gas talks involving Israel - officials
A nascent plan for Iraq's Kurdistan region to supply gas to Turkey and Europe - with Israeli help - is part of what angered Iran into striking the Kurdish capital Erbil with ballistic missiles this month, Iraqi and Turkish officials say.www.reuters.com
What do you guys think?
EXCLUSIVE Iran struck Iraq target over gas talks involving Israel - officials
A nascent plan for Iraq's Kurdistan region to supply gas to Turkey and Europe - with Israeli help - is part of what angered Iran into striking the Kurdish capital Erbil with ballistic missiles this month, Iraqi and Turkish officials say.www.reuters.com
What do you guys think?
As I've guessed you don't have enough courage to honestly answer my question. You only answered question #1 firmly, while some of the other questions you did not dare to answer and some of your answers were vague, unclear and impressed to avoid questions with answers that were too far from the point of the question.
Please answer everything clearly!
Below I will respond to some of your 'cold-blooded' statements.
So the video above about barbaric Russian soldiers shooting a car containing this grandparents pair you think is just a "tragedy" not a 'war crime'?! poor grandparents.
You don't even seem to have watched the full video below:
try to start looking at 7.15 minutes where many Ukrainian civilian bodies have been shot by Putin's soldiers.
Will you 'REPENT' (stop lick*ng Putin) if I give you some video evidence of Putin's army savagery?! (I hope you are not lying, because you are not neutral and you have been brainwashed by your lord Putin).
See all the videos below, watch until the end.
https://twitter.com/IvanCNN/status/1507460421975887874?t=9JsVthVYS9GglckCkBDiaw&s=19
https://twitter.com/ALPOT/status/1500512735666348032?t=czjsV5gtm8xgxKratSUBxg&s=19
https://youtu.be/Mb3_R__r7Go
https://youtu.be/rHxW7vO04mM
https://youtu.be/riF1szCa6Ho
Hei, dont add anything if you dont have credible source on it, where you get the women, young girls, and boys are killed during 1965 communist massacre in Indonesia ?
The number 1.5 million is just Western people assumption despite the killing did exist. They like to exagerate any negative thing in Indonesia,
EXCLUSIVE Iran struck Iraq target over gas talks involving Israel - officials
A nascent plan for Iraq's Kurdistan region to supply gas to Turkey and Europe - with Israeli help - is part of what angered Iran into striking the Kurdish capital Erbil with ballistic missiles this month, Iraqi and Turkish officials say.www.reuters.com
What do you guys think?
New Recruit
I think your mind is like a child who is easily brainwashed (I thought you would not repent, to stop worshiping putin no matter what).More ad hominems. What ad hominems do, is to suggest that the person resorting to them has no substantial arguments to counter with.
My answers were clear. Perhaps you should read them again.
You dodged the challenge: before drawing conclusions, please prove to us that the shooters were Russians. Please provide irrefutable evidence that they fired with the intention of killing civilians. Oh I see, you don't have any evidence, which is why you must resort to shallow rhetoric.
You just seem to assume every allegation from pro-NATO sources against Russia has to be truthful. Which is, in fact, a misleading way of looking at things, because earlier accusations of the same kind were proven to be either uncertain or outright false.
Here's an example: the footage of the APC which crushed a civilian car in Kiev.
Immediately presented as a "Russian war crime" by anti-Russian media, including major western newspapers such as the UK's Daily Mail:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ing-opposite-road-Ukraine-elderly-driver.html
But as indications to the contrary started to emerge, they switched to damage control. With USA Today calling into question that the APC was actually Russian:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nk-hitting-car-kyiv-lacks-context/6953727001/
So either you can show us hard evidence that the elderly couple was murdered by Russian troops, and that their killers had full knowledge that these were but harmless civilians, or we're wasting time.
Video doesn't play.
Do you get the difference between collateral, unintended damage to civilians in urban fighting on the one hand, which is not a war crime, and deliberate targeting of civilians on the other?
Three of these videos won't play, but I watched all the others: not a single one contains evidence of deliberate and conscious attacks on civilians. All of these may be collateral damage, with Russian forces firing at known Ukrainian military positions, or what they had reason to believe were Ukrainian military positions, with civilians whose presence in the vicinity was not known to the Russians getting hit in the process.
In the last one, taken from a CNN report, the mother of the injured girl states that when they saw Russian soldiers, they suddely made a u-turn and drove away, and that this was when the Russians opened fire on their car. She also says they then stopped the car, stepped out of it, and heard the Russian troops shout something at them. Now if these Russian troops were intending to randomly kill some Ukrainian civilians, why did they not fire at this family after they halted their car and stepped out of it? Why were they left alone at that point? This suggests that the reason soldiers directed shots at the car in the first place, was because of the panicked turnaround it operated, which in turn caused the soldiers to get suspicious of the vehicle and open fire.
The fact that Ukrainian militias have not just been stationing themselves in densely populated cities, but reportedly have prevented residents from leaving in certain cases (especially in locations populated by the Russian-speaking minority), and have positioned troops and weaponry inside civilian buildings from where they didn't hesitate to fire at Russian forces, certainly doesn't help to keep civilian casualties low. There's indications and evidence to this effect and some of it was posted in this thread, look it up.
Now if you can't make sense of this, or are somehow too insensitive to acknowledge it, then there's no point reposting the same material.
Hard evidence is something like the leaked sequence recorded by Australian troops, where they can be seen executing unarmed Afghan civilians. That is an example of irrefutable proof of a war crime; the type of material published by supporters of the Ukrainian regime and their NATO masters isn't. Your contention is no different from the accusations leveled against Syria and its allies by apologists of the terrorist insurgents, who showed many more images of dead women and children, and claimed that these had all been deliberately massacred by government forces.
By the way, the first document you posted is accompanied by the following text:
"80% of Russians support the war in Ukraine. The Russian people are cruel, aggressive and unable to think rationally."
Gutter level racism. Tells us something about the kind of mindset one may find within the pro-Ukrainian camp.
Last but not least, it is reported that between the signing of the 2014 Minsk Agreement and the start of this war, some 14.000 civilians, essentially Russian-speakers, were massacred in the Donbas as a consequence of random shelling by Ukrainian (para)military units. Aren't they too deserving of our compassion? Will you measure the Ukrainian regime by the same yardstick as Russia, and will you therefore announce that the Ukrainian regime is evil, in keeping with your previous terminology?
By the way, you didn't clarify your stance on the 1965 massacres of civilians in Indonesia.
- - - - -
My question was directed at Mata Elang, and I asked the user because they were invoking moral considerations in order to condemn Russia, and so it would be interesting to see whether they will apply the same moral standards to the events that took place in Indonesia.
But since you quoted me, here are three publications that make mention of violence against women during these events:
* Tarzie Vittachi, The Fall of Sukarno, 1967, Andre Deutsch Ltd.
* Vincent Bevins, The Jakarta Method: Washington's Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program that Shaped Our World, 2020, PublicAffairs.
* "Sexual slander of Gerwani revealed; the story of Atikah - Jamilah and Jemilah", https://www.tribunal1965.org/sexual...aled-the-story-of-atikah-jamilah-and-jemilah/ .
The first book reports that in the course of the opening operation in Bali, 50.000 civilians including women and children were massacred right away, sometimes while fleeing their homes. As as a result, the population in several Balinese villages is said to have halved.
In the second one, pp. 215-216 it is indicated that "detainees were sometimes forced to watch or listen to the torture of others, including relatives such as spouses or children. Both men and women were subjected to sexual violence while in detention, including rape and electric shocks to the genitals."
Moreover, numerous publications describe extensive repression against members of the Gerwani women's association. The third source cited above explains that "after 1965, most of the Gerwani members were killed, arrested, or imprisoned without trial for years. Gerwani members were frequently raped and then beaten to death or executed together with their entire families."
These same western sources like to exaggerate anything negative about Russia, and also to spread massive amounts of disinformation on the current conflict in Ukraine.
- - - - -
Face saving. Look how many days it took them to come up with such a lame story.