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Iranian Chill Thread

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In a country like Iran, colonization wouldn't bring anything but more misery, our case is different from areas like Hong Kong, Bahrain or Oman, we are more like an 'Indian case', and I'm happy that we were never colonized, although they threw their venom at our country in various occasions which doesn't need explanations, everyone knows them. From British to Russians and Americans.

KSA was not 'colonized' in the common sense by western country, but it was ruled by Ottomans (Hijaz, which is core of KSA of that time) for centuries and was practically established with direct help of British (Lawrence of Arabia is just one famous symbol of it), just like other countries who were created after demise of Ottoman empire, like Syria, Iraq, Lebanon or Jordan.

Yes, some countries benefited colonization, but not all were that lucky.

Hijaz is one of the numerous historical provinces of modern-day KSA. Most of the others were never conquered by any foreigners. Hijaz was ruled by local rulers and for most of the 350 years that the Ottomans had a presence in that region of KSA, the presence was limited to a few main cities and military garrisons. There was hardly ever any effective control and that is why the Sultan in Istanbul wanted to built the Hijaz Railway linking Istanbul with Madinah and Madinah. Something that never materialized.

Iran was ruled by foreigners for centuries upon centuries. By Greeks, Arabs, Mongols and Turks to mention a few. You also lost former territories that were conquered directly by Russians. Let alone the British involvement in Iran. They practically controlled all your oil and gas fields.

Let alone this which they caused.


The Great Famine & Genocide in Iran: 1917-1919, 2nd Edition, By Mohammad Gholi Majd, 9780761861683 | Rowman & Littlefield

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

KSA (as in the Saudi states (the first, second and third)) existed long before Lawrence of Arabia who did not create anything but took part in the Arab-Ottoman wars which ended in Ottoman defeat. So you got some reading to do.

Anyway this does not mean anything as neither KSA nor Iran were a European colony but the West 100 years ago could easily have colonized both countries. Other countries that have never been colonized by European powers are "mighty powers" like Mongolia and Thailand. It really does not tell a too big story.

You guys really need to stop living in a delusion. "Never conquered", "only country without a national independence day" etc. It's all false. By a WIDE margin, especially the part covering conquests.


There is no "Independence Day" in KSA either. It's called the National Day. Just because some Pakistani on PDF makes a false thread title with such an name it does not become a historical reality.

nevercolonizednew.jpg


Note this is only European colonization.
 
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@Full Moon whats your country name again ? "saudi arabia" ?

excuse me did i hear that right ? saudi ? isn't that a clan name ?

die dude , die .

So did the Ottomans, Umayads, Abbasids and many others, all linked thier state to a last name. I love Kurds and adore them (I am serious), and I know you are one. Kurds have no state yet. Speacking of colonization and independence, Kurds should find thier way to greatness and catch up witht the rest of the World in having their own independant state.
 
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Hijaz is one of the numerous historical provinces of modern-day KSA. Most of the others were never conquered by any foreigners. Hijaz was ruled by local rulers and for most of the 350 years that the Ottomans had a presence in that region of KSA, the presence was limited to a few main cities and military garrisons. There was hardly ever any effective control and that is why the Sultan in Istanbul wanted to built the Hijaz Railway linking Istanbul with Madinah and Madinah. Something that never materialized.

Iran was ruled by foreigners for centuries upon centuries. By Greeks, Arabs, Mongols and Turks to mention a few. You also lost former territories that were conquered directly by Russians. Let alone the British involvement in Iran. They practically controlled all your oil and gas fields.

Let alone this which they caused.


The Great Famine & Genocide in Iran: 1917-1919, 2nd Edition, By Mohammad Gholi Majd, 9780761861683 | Rowman & Littlefield

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

KSA (as in the Saudi states (the first, second and third)) existed long before Lawrence of Arabia who did not create anything but took part in the Arab-Ottoman wars which ended in Ottoman defeat. So you got some reading to do.

Anyway this does not mean anything as neither KSA nor Iran were a European colony but the West 100 years ago could easily have colonized both countries. Other countries that have never been colonized by European powers are "mighty powers" like Mongolia and Thailand. It really does not tell a too big story.

You guys really need to stop living in a delusion. "Never conquered", "only country without a national independence day" etc. It's all false. By a WIDE margin, especially the part covering conquests.


There is no "Independence Day" in KSA either. It's called the National Day. Just because some Pakistani on PDF makes a false thread title with such an name it does not become a historical reality.

nevercolonizednew.jpg


Note this is only European colonization.

Too many exaggerations. I already said in my posts that they made our people suffer in various occasions (as their habit all over the world), even though we were not colonized.

Also, I said KSA was not 'formally' colonized by west, but it was controlled by Ottomans for centuries in contemporary history, no shame in it or anything, it's just history. Every country, including Iran and others have had their ups and downs in history, no exception.

And I never said we are the 'only' country without Independence Day, that's not true, obviously.

Sorry my bad. I got the opposite meaning out of it. I apologize.

No need to apologize bro, really, just wanted to explain myself. :)
 
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Anyway this does not mean anything as neither KSA nor Iran were a European colony but the West 100 years ago could easily have colonized both countries. Other countries that have never been colonized by European powers are "mighty powers" like Mongolia and Thailand. It really does not tell a too big story.

You guys really need to stop living in a delusion. "Never conquered", "only country without a national independence day" etc. It's all false. By a WIDE margin, especially the part covering conquests.
Dude , Seriously ,Why do you put underline on some parts of what you write ? Like you want to share some points from a reliable source ... Or... you see your posts as those reliable sources ? :man_in_love: No no it's not bad at all . You ve got self confidence .;)
 
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all linked thier state to a last name.
it's great that you're comparing your situation right now to a 1000 years ago . shows how much you've advanced in civility .
I love Kurds and adore them (I am serious)
why ?

cause you're countrymen don't . well , they shouldn't either . we're killing them in Syria and Iraq . how could you adore kurds who are killing your people ?

Kurds have no state yet
well , nothing more is expected from you . you're a saudi .

kurds are medes people , educate yourself : Medes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Iran is their country and it will remain their country for eternity . just as it belongs to persians , azeris , lurs , balouch , ....

back to your miserable life in a dictatorial clan's country now .

Dude , Seriously ,Why do you put underline on some parts of what you write ? Like you want to share some points from a reliable source ... Or... you see your posts as those reliable sources ? :man_in_love: No no it's not bad at all . You ve got confidence .;)
that dude writes 100 lines of BS in 60 seconds .

i mean have some respect please bro . he is a fast BS writer
 
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Too many exaggerations. I already said in my posts that they made our people suffer in various occasions (as their habit all over the world), even though we were not colonized.

Also, I said KSA was not 'formally' colonized by west, but it was controlled by Ottomans for centuries in contemporary history, no shame in it or anything, it's just history. Every country, including Iran and others have had their ups and downs in history, no exception.

And I never said we are the 'only' country without Independence Day, that's not true, obviously.

The West (UK and Russia if you consider them Western) have indeed made you suffer horrendously in the past 2 centuries. I can't think of a country in the MENA region that is entitled to have as many genuine grudges against the West as Iran. Probably only Iraq.

On the other hand the West has not really caused much if any harm to the Arab countries of the Arabian Peninsula. Unlike for instance other Arab countries or non-Arab countries in the region. There are many reasons for that but it's not the place to discuss this.

If anything the anti-regime locals in the GCC can at most blame the West for supporting the regimes in power just like the West supported the Shah.

350 years, yes. Still much, much less than the centuries of Greek, Arab, Mongol, Turkish etc. rule in what is modern-day Iran.

One of your compatriots eluded to that.

Dude , Seriously ,Why do you put underline on some parts of what you write ? Like you want to share some points from a reliable source ... Or... you see your posts as those reliable sources ? :man_in_love: No no it's not bad at all . You ve got self confidence .;)

I have no reason not to be confident. Because sometimes it is necessary to highlight certain parts of a long post as many people tend to skip long posts.

@haman10

There is no proof of Medes being Kurds nor have a Kurdistan ever existed in history anywhere. Historical facts don't become bullshit just because it does not suit you. Just like everything that PressTV and Fars News "report" is not necessarily true. Most often than not it is not.

Lastly this is a Pakistani forum. I will write wherever I want to especially considering the fact that the Arab section is frequented by Iranian users as well let alone all the Iranians who comment on Arab affairs which happens basically every single day 24/7. This is my second or third post on this section anyway.
 
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There are many reasons for that but it's not the place to discuss this.
its either :

1- because of your powerful armies at the time (lol)

OR

2- you being worthless pieces of crap .

i donno which one is the reason they didn't show any interest in your desert land .

either way , the point is , if ottomans could wreck you , Iran could as well . since we smashed ottomans into pieces .

P.S : west owned your oil , that was enough for them . other than that you really have no value .

even right now , you're worthless without oil . think about it . really .

A foolish biased moderator banned me on another section of the forum for no reason.
oh thats too bad .
which foolish moderator ? @WebMaster ?

There is no proof of Medes being Kurds nor have a Kurdistan ever existed in history anywhere. Historical facts don't become bullshit just because it does not suit you. Just like everything that PressTV and Fars News "report" is not necessarily true. Most often than not it is not.
what a load of nonsense . sometimes you're left speechless when the concentration of stupidity in just a single post is over the charts .

its that moment for me .
 
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its either :

1- your powerful armies at the time (lol)

OR

2- you being worthless pieces of crap .

i donno which one is the reason they didn't show any interest in your desert land .

either way , the point is , if ottomans could wreck you , Iran could as well . since we smashed ottomans into pieces .

P.S : west owned your oil , that was enough for them . other than that you really have no value .

even right now , you're worthless without oil . think about it . really .

Yes, but the deserts of Iran, barren mountains/steppes and "jungles" (LOL) equal to Congo where highly sought after by the West. In particular Qom.

Yes, and without oil and gas (that the Westerners discovered for you as well) you would be another Afghanistan next door.

You forgot who conquered you militarily 1400 years ago, ruled you for centuries and changed your entity forever. Religiously, culturally, linguistically etc.

Kurds are a stateless people and there have never been a Kurdistan in history. That's just a fact. I don't care though as I have no problems with Kurds.

Write whatever you want to write of historical nonsense here. It's what to be expected.
 
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Yes, but the deserts of Iran, barren mountains/steppes and "jungles" (LOL) equal to Congo where highly sought after by the West. In particular Qom.

Yes, and without oil and gas (that the Westerners discovered for you as well) you would be another Afghanistan next door.

You forgot who conquered you militarily 1400 years ago, ruled you for centuries and changed your entity forever. Religiously, culturally, linguistically etc.

Kurds are a stateless people and there have never been a Kurdistan in history. That's just a fact. I don't care though as I have no problems with Kurds.

Write whatever you want to write of historical nonsense here. It's what to be expected.

blah blah .

i'm just gonna ignore your butt now cause you've downgraded to an even worse troll recently .

if i have a soup of alphabet i can shyt better argument than you
 
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it's great that you're comparing your situation right now to a 1000 years ago . shows how much you've advanced in civility .

why ?

cause you're countrymen don't . well , they shouldn't either . we're killing them in Syria and Iraq . how could you adore kurds who are killing your people ?


well , nothing more is expected from you . you're a saudi .

kurds are medes people , educate yourself : Medes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Iran is their country and it will remain their country for eternity . just as it belongs to persians , azeris , lurs , balouch , ....

back to your miserable life in a dictatorial clan's country now .

that dude writes 100 lines of BS in 60 seconds .

i mean have some respect please bro . he is a fast BS writer

The Ottomans lasted until the 1920s.

Anyway, I am serious when I said that I love Kurds. I admire their bravery, honesty, and never ending stubbornness in what they think is right. They are mostly Sunnis too (I must admit that part !), and they are fine with Arabs in general except some rounds of conflicts from time to time.
 
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@Serpentine I have often thought about colonization. Is it by definition evil or is the reality more nuanced? My take on it is that it is not quite black and white. It depends on who the colonizers are, how they deal with their subjects and at what level of development the subjects are when they are colonized.

I would put forth Kazakistan, Kirghiztan, Tajikistan, Malaysia and India where colonization has had positive effects. The fact of the matter is the three ex Soviet states have far higher development indicators than had they not been colonized. The best example is Tajikistan because we can use the Tajiks across the Amu Darya in Afghanistan as comparisons. The ones south of Amu Darya are in stone age whereas Tajiks in the ex Soviet republic are relatively far more advanced.

Then there is example of Malaysia which has done very well post independance. The British colonial system was less inclusive then the Russian system. It tended to create elites as agents to control the subjects whilst a extractive economic system was built to benefit Britain.

If you look at India it is a mixed picture. Had the British not come there would have been no India. Yes there would have been a geographic region like Middle East or Balkans but no united political entity called India. Instead there would have been lots of warring states each with their own language etc. So India itself is a product British rule and Pakistan itself is a by product of that.

Everything and anything that makes Pakistan tick is from the British era. The military, the administrative machine, the law is all British colonial legacy. Some of the very things that are causing grief to the West are legacy of the British. The military, ISI the intelligenc agency are all British. Most people regard Pakistan fragile. The truth is it is solid and it's foundation is the military and the civil administration system. Both are British legacies.

Almost every regiment of the Pakistan Army date from 1850s or earlier and were constituted by the British. Each regiment has over one and half centuries built up remarkable sense of existance. This has created a incrediblely unified army that towers over the country. Another aspect of British rule is their elitest habits did not bother with mass education but they created a excellant elite schooling system including universities.

This led to small but very well educated group that provided the manpower for officer corp in the military, the civil service. Also creating a scientific pool. This is the reason why in 1972 when Bhutto decided to go nuclear it only took 8 years to go from zero to cold test in 1980. The reason was Bhutto could rely on pool of Pakistani scientists with the nuclear know how. Examples of this are men like Dr Abdus Salam ( the first Muslim Nobel prize winner in science ) who had been pushing to go nuclear as early as 1960s.

Abdus Salam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However there is another negative side. The British interfered in a evolution of a underdeveloped people selectively. One exampe of this negativbe effect is the mass of the population failed absorb any modernity but at the same time profited from the moderity. One result was population growth. That led to huge numbers of ignorents who were products of British western advances but at the same time thought like their ignorent forefathers.

In addition the certain groups in society like the Mullah class started to associate anything connected to colonialism as evil. This can be seen today how they will refuse engage with anything western even it is beneficial. This is connected to the colonial humiliation. Notice how colonized societies are more prone to wear non western clothes etc. At one stage there was talk of Roman Urdu ( using Roman characters like Turks did ) but there was a violent reaction. The reason was unlike Turkey Roman characters were connected to the colonial British.

So at the end of the day it is a mixed bag. I personally would have preferred the British had stayed in Pakistan for another 25 years as that would have led to larger body educated open minded people who could have acted like a catalyst for change.

Of course ideally I would have not preferred if the British had not come at all.
 
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@Serpentine I have often thought about colonization. Is it by definition evil or is the reality more nuanced? My take on it is that it is not quite black and white. It depends on who the colonizers are, how they deal with their subjects and at what level of development the subjects are when they are colonized.

I would put forth Kazakistan, Kirghiztan, Tajikistan, Malaysia and India where colonization has had positive effects. The fact of the matter is the three ex Soviet states have far higher development indicators than had they not been colonized. The best example is Tajikistan because we can use the Tajiks across the Amu Darya in Afghanistan as comparisons. The ones south of Amu Darya are in stone age whereas Tajiks in the ex Soviet republic are relatively far more advanced.

Then there is example of Malaysia which has done very well post independance. The British colonial system was less inclusive then the Russian system. It tended to create elites as agents to control the subjects whilst a extractive economic system was built to benefit Britain.

If you look at India it is a mixed picture. Had the British not come there would have been no India. Yes there would have been a geographic region like Middle East or Balkans but no united political entity called India. Instead there would have been lots of warring states each with their own language etc. So India itself is a product British rule and Pakistan itself is a by product of that.

Everything and anything that makes Pakistan tick is from the British era. The military, the administrative machine, the law is all British colonial legacy. Some of the very things that are causing grief to the West are legacy of the British. The military, ISI the intelligenc agency are all British. Most people regard Pakistan fragile. The truth is it is solid and it's foundation is the military and the civil administration system. Both are British legacies.

Almost every regiment of the Pakistan Army date from 1850s or earlier and were constituted by the British. Each regiment has over one and half centuries built up remarkable sense of existance. This has created a incrediblely unified army that towers over the country. Another aspect of British rule is their elitest habits did not bother with mass education but they created a excellant elite schooling system including universities.

This led to small but very well educated group that provided the manpower for officer corp in the military, the civil service. Also creating a scientific pool. This is the reason why in 1972 when Bhutto decided to go nuclear it only took 8 years to go from zero to cold test in 1980. The reason was Bhutto could rely on pool of Pakistani scientists with the nuclear know how. Examples of this are men like Dr Abdus Salam ( the first Muslim Nobel prize winner in science ) who had been pushing to go nuclear as early as 1960s.

Abdus Salam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However there is another negative side. The British interfered in a evolution of a underdeveloped people selectively. One exampe of this negativbe effect is the mass of the population failed absorb any modernity but at the same time profited from the moderity. One result was population growth. That led to huge numbers of ignorents who were products of British western advances but at the same time thought like their ignorent forefathers.

In addition the certain groups in society like the Mullah class started to associate anything connected to colonialism as evil. This can be seen today how they will refuse engage with anything western even it is beneficial. This is connected to the colonial humiliation. Notice how colonized societies are more prone to wear non western clothes etc. At one stage there was talk of Roman Urdu ( using Roman characters like Turks did ) but there was a violent reaction. The reason was unlike Turkey Roman characters were connected to the colonial British.

So at the end of the day it is a mixed bag. I personally would have preferred the British had stayed in Pakistan for another 25 years as that would have led to larger body educated open minded people who could have acted like a catalyst for change.

Of course ideally I would have not preferred if the British had not come at all.

Thanks for adding to the conversation. This topic was turning into a dick size contest between Arabs and Iranians again.

I completely disagree with colonization, specially by the west. Throughout the ages colonization by the east wasn't turning the locals into slaves. The west were different. They would completely destroy the culture. It doesn't matter if they brought in technology & science, because once they were pushed out, all that remained was a broken people. India still hasn't found its self-esteem. Their girls want to look white and their rich like to speak in English.
 
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@Serpentine I have often thought about colonization. Is it by definition evil or is the reality more nuanced? My take on it is that it is not quite black and white. It depends on who the colonizers are, how they deal with their subjects and at what level of development the subjects are when they are colonized.

I would put forth Kazakistan, Kirghiztan, Tajikistan, Malaysia and India where colonization has had positive effects. The fact of the matter is the three ex Soviet states have far higher development indicators than had they not been colonized. The best example is Tajikistan because we can use the Tajiks across the Amu Darya in Afghanistan as comparisons. The ones south of Amu Darya are in stone age whereas Tajiks in the ex Soviet republic are relatively far more advanced.

Then there is example of Malaysia which has done very well post independance. The British colonial system was less inclusive then the Russian system. It tended to create elites as agents to control the subjects whilst a extractive economic system was built to benefit Britain.

If you look at India it is a mixed picture. Had the British not come there would have been no India. Yes there would have been a geographic region like Middle East or Balkans but no united political entity called India. Instead there would have been lots of warring states each with their own language etc. So India itself is a product British rule and Pakistan itself is a by product of that.

Everything and anything that makes Pakistan tick is from the British era. The military, the administrative machine, the law is all British colonial legacy. Some of the very things that are causing grief to the West are legacy of the British. The military, ISI the intelligenc agency are all British. Most people regard Pakistan fragile. The truth is it is solid and it's foundation is the military and the civil administration system. Both are British legacies.

Almost every regiment of the Pakistan Army date from 1850s or earlier and were constituted by the British. Each regiment has over one and half centuries built up remarkable sense of existance. This has created a incrediblely unified army that towers over the country. Another aspect of British rule is their elitest habits did not bother with mass education but they created a excellant elite schooling system including universities.

This led to small but very well educated group that provided the manpower for officer corp in the military, the civil service. Also creating a scientific pool. This is the reason why in 1972 when Bhutto decided to go nuclear it only took 8 years to go from zero to cold test in 1980. The reason was Bhutto could rely on pool of Pakistani scientists with the nuclear know how. Examples of this are men like Dr Abdus Salam ( the first Muslim Nobel prize winner in science ) who had been pushing to go nuclear as early as 1960s.

Abdus Salam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However there is another negative side. The British interfered in a evolution of a underdeveloped people selectively. One exampe of this negativbe effect is the mass of the population failed absorb any modernity but at the same time profited from the moderity. One result was population growth. That led to huge numbers of ignorents who were products of British western advances but at the same time thought like their ignorent forefathers.

In addition the certain groups in society like the Mullah class started to associate anything connected to colonialism as evil. This can be seen today how they will refuse engage with anything western even it is beneficial. This is connected to the colonial humiliation. Notice how colonized societies are more prone to wear non western clothes etc. At one stage there was talk of Roman Urdu ( using Roman characters like Turks did ) but there was a violent reaction. The reason was unlike Turkey Roman characters were connected to the colonial British.

So at the end of the day it is a mixed bag. I personally would have preferred the British had stayed in Pakistan for another 25 years as that would have led to larger body educated open minded people who could have acted like a catalyst for change.

Of course ideally I would have not preferred if the British had not come at all.
I think your 54+ points are well deserved . i really adore people who know what they are talking about .

of course that doesn't mean i agree with your post above . to think that being a colony of brits had overall positive effects on pakistan is merely ridiculous .

they were there to secure their own interests and steal your resources , not to improve your military and infrastructure . the fact that those "legacies" of brits as you call them has positively effected pakistan has to do with the fact that they were good at what they were doing . if they built rails for example , it was for easier transport of their troops , not for prosperity of the people .

all of them are unintentional and taking everything into account , being a brit colony has brought nothing but misery for the target nations .

being a colony of any nation has the same effects .
 
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