Thanks for your informative post. Overall, science has never been a strong tradition of Muslims anywhere. But even in India, it was after the coming of British that Hindus (rather Brahmins) shone in sciences. Yes, there were some sporadic learning and discoveries before, but nothing at the scale that happened after the British involvement. Another thing though (that I do not personally agree with), is the caste system which you mentioned, could have contributed to this situation by promoting a "caste destined to learn". So, perhaps it can be argued, the British when planning for management of human resources in India, used this already existing ancient system to promote and favor Brahmins. But that is just a thought.
It was more of attributes engendered by tradition rather than promotion by British which lead to domination of Civil services by a particular caste.
If you read my write completely, you would know that British , promoted Britishers only. There were 0 Indians in civil service till 1863 ,and till 1912 ICS was predominantly ( <80% ) British ,and had British majority till 1945.
This phenomenon as you see in India vis-a-vis Brahmins is a universal phenomenon, not something limited to India.Whenever there is paradigm shift in social conditions, people who are best placed to gain an advantage take lead over those who are not.
An example, i would say most convincing example, of this would be Jews.Jews were persecuted in Europe and were barred from holding any lands, were restricted to separate quarters, and have to wear a identifier insignia. Only moneylending was open to them.When power in Europe use to be derived from land holdings, they were at the bottom of European social totem pole. But when power of liquid currency became supreme, due to industrial revolution and European expansion, Jews position improved and improved to such an extent that they become most powerful people in Europe. This was due to fact that Jews had much better understanding of how money works due to institutional memory passed down from generation to generation.This happened when Jews were Hated, and are still hated, in most of Europe.
This is also the reason that Western countries are most powerful today. Modern Science, originated in west, which gave first movers advantage. India and China would never be able to become as scientifically advanced as US , barring a epochal transition, because West has an advantage of 30-50 years over us. By the time we master some technology, it is already obsolete.
This differentiation is also seen in dominance of type of military tactics in different regions of the world. Europe, which has a rugged topography is a place where infantry dominates over cavalry , so we had a roman empire there who had best infantry of all times but sucked balls in cavalry. It could be also seen from Indian History. Turks, who were masters of light cavalry, found it extremely difficult to defeat Indian Kings with strong cavalry contingent. It took 3 generations of warfare to subdue Kabulshahi Dynasty ,but it took only 12 years for Turks to overrun Gangetic plains, which have flat terrain thus favoring cavalry, because of their superior cavalry tactics. Same turks failed against Rajputs which had strong cavalry themselves and Himalyan Kingdoms,Central ,and South India, which due to rugged terrain did not favored cavalry.
Similar is the case with Muslims today. Islamic civilization was based on militarism, not Science. SO in today's world where wars are fought by Scientists and Engineers, Islamic countries have fallen behind West which has supremacy in S&T department.If Scientist somehow magically disappear, there is a good chance that Islam would overrun west.
Thanks for your informative post. Overall, science has never been a strong tradition of Muslims anywhere. But even in India, it was after the coming of British that Hindus (rather Brahmins) shone in sciences..
To be honest, India, as a big subcontinent with 1/4 of world population, has had a minimum contribution to world science and culture, and I do blame the sick system of hinduism responsible for this. Hinduism just makes people numb about their real life under different pretexts.
I will address this point first as this is common to both your posts. I would answer other parts of
@rmi5 post later.
India being backward in Science is a myth. India, historically, was very advanced in Philosophy, Astronomy, Medicine, Metallurgy, linguistics,and Mathematics. India sucked in Geographical knowledge and writing chronological history, first attempt on which was made by Kalhana in 1200CE (
Rājatarangiṇī) . This myth is a side-effect of dominant western thought.
Lot of Indian ( and to some extent Persian too ) scientific knowledge is attributed to Arabs as Arabs act as courier between Indian and Europe ( there is no way for thought exchange between India and Europe bypassing Arabs before 1498CE). So Indian place decimal number system and achievement in Algebra are attributed to Arabs.
One such example is brahmagupta. His book
Brāhmasphuṭasiddhānta was translated by Al-fazari as Sini-al-Arab and formed basis of further works of Al-Khwarizmi.
This is only an odd example. Indian mathematical achievement are numerous and India always had a strong tradition of mathematics. You could review this list yourself.
List of Indian mathematicians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia They are not known worldwide because today's dominant intellectual thought is western thought which is based in work of Greeks rather than Indians.An example of this would be
Rolle's theorem. This theorem was given by Bhaskara-II of India but it is attributed to Michel rolles.
You could go through works of Indian mathematecians if you like to.
List of Indian mathematicians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In medicine, Sushruta wrote
Sushruta Samhita in 600BCE ( he is known as father of surgery) which along with
Charaka samhita from 900 BCE jointly constitute Ayurveda which till advent of modern medicine was best encyclopedia of medicine.
Sanskrit, is one of the oldest recorded language in History with it's oldest inscriptions being from treaty between Hitties and Mittani in 1400BCE. and is has largest amount of literature from 1000BCE era, to the extent that Rig-Veda is used by academics to study history of both India and Iran as inscription in Avestan from that time are few.
Indo-Aryan superstrate in Mitanni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Damascus steel did not originated in Damascus. It originated in India. Europeans named it Damascus steel because they got it from Damascus.
Damascus steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is not to say that you people are at fault. Since western traditions dominate the world, achievement of any other civilization which did not contributed to Western thought are not well known. Even most of Indians did not know much about Indian history and culture as Indian government suppress it in order to not cause strife between Hindus and Muslims.
If you want to know more about Indian History and Culture , you could visit this thread.
Ancient and Medieval achievements of the Indians - Historum - History Forums
So
@rmi5 , Indians even after being 1/7 of world population today , ( not 1/4 as you have stated, and it was even lower in history before European population growth become -ve) did not have lowest Scientific achievements in History. If you compare 1500 years of non-muslim history of India ( 500BCE - 1000CE) with 1500 year of combined Islamic History ( 500 CE - 2000CE), Indians would outrank Muslims (who are 1/4 of total world population) more-so because Golden age of Islamic knowledge lasted for very short period ( 300 years) before Al-Ghazali declared Science and Mathematics as Heresy.
A factor, and most important factor, that contributed to decline of Indian civilization from 1000CE onward is attributed to wholesale destruction brought by Muslims onto India. Mahmud of Ghazni wiped out ( and took pride in doing so ) institutes of higher education from North India.
As noted by Al-Biruni,a muslim himself
In the interest of his successors he constructed, in order to weaken the Indian frontier, those roads on which afterwards his son Mahmud marched into India during a period of thirty years and more. God be merciful to both father and son! Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed there wonderful exploits, by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions, and like a tale of old in the mouth of the people. Their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims. This is the reason, too, why Hindu sciences have retired far away from those parts of the country conquered by us, and have fled to places which our hand cannot yet reach, to Kashmir, Benares, and other places. And there the antagonism between them and all foreigners receives more and more nourishment both from political and religious sources
Mahmud of Ghazni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And Destruction of Universities ( along with slaying of all teachers and student present in complex) of Nalanda and Vikramshila by a Ghorid Muhammab-bin-Bakhtiyar Khilzi as written in Tabaqat-i-nasiri be minaj ul Shiraz.
The Persian historian
Minhaj-i-Siraj, in his chronicle the
Tabaqat-i-Nasiri, reported that thousands of monks were burned alive and thousands beheaded as Khilji tried his best to uproot Buddhism. The burning of the library continued for several months and "smoke from the burning manuscripts hung for days like a dark pall over the low hills.
Ikhtiyar ad-Din Muhammad bin Bakhtiyar Khilji - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Even Muslim Historians of India like Mohd. Habib of Aligarh Muslim University acknowledge that advent of Islam brought civilization decline in India, even though they attribute it to Barbarianism of Turks (Idea of Turks being a barbaric race is popular among muslim historians in India ) rather than to Islam.
Thirdly, according to Habib there was also a racial factor: these Muslims were mostly Turks, savage riders from the steppes who would need several centuries before getting civilized by the wholesome influence of Islam. Their inborn barbarity cannot be attributed to the doctrines of Islam
Negationism In India - Chapter Two - Negationism In India
Although, my main problem with hinduism, is not violence against other religions, rather is creating a massive system for abusing hundreds of millions of people lives and make them live miserable under the title of untouchable, or other stuff. Also, inhumane practices like Sati, in which they were burning a widow after her husband was died, are other forms of crimes against humanity.
Caste system has no relation to Hinduism, a point proven by existence of castes among Muslims and Christians and lack of mention of word caste ( jati in Hindi/sanskrit) in whole of Hindu literature, either religious or Secular.
Caste system among Muslims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Caste system among Indian Christians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dalit Catholics petition Vatican against ‘discrimination’
I should explain Indian social structure here in some detail.
In Hinduism there are Four Varnas: Brahmins ( Scholars), Ksatriyas ( warriors ), Vaishyas( traders ) , and Shudra ( Cultivators and Artisans) with an additional category of outcastes ( doing menial work like carrying garbage and as executioners). These even though not recognized by Hindu religious philosophy , but are considered part of Hinduism as they were mentioned in secular literature which has religious overtones. The membership of these groups is not permanent and any one could rise or fall on scale based on it's deeds.
This is evident from example of Vishvamitra who was a Ksatriya but became a Brahmin by pursuing intellectual pusuits. Apart from this, all Ksatriyas in South India were originally Shudras who became Ksatriya by Parataking military activities and sucessfully defending kingdoms they created.
Untouchability, is also not mentioned anywhere in Hindu texts,except in case of Chandals who were Royal executioner and undertakers. It got generalized on Dalits or Panchams pretty late around 1300CE.
Apart from this Hindus had a parallel Gotra system which was constituted in order to prevent incest ( you could not marry in your own Gotra ). They are family trees traced to ancestors in antiquity. For example: My Gotra is bhardwaj, so i could not marry a girl hailing from same Gotra.
This is one of good books ( written by a Britisher so you need not worry about neutrality ) . Though being 70 year old, it misses out a lot of things like chronology of Indian Kings which was researched after his death.
Wonder That Was India: A.L. Basham: 9780330439091: Amazon.com: Books
Caste, on the other hand are groups of people who claim or assume similar origin, and thus are permanent. They are not mentioned in any Hindu text because most of them formed after religious activity has ceased on part of Hindus.
Origin of castes is varied. In Hindus a caste could fall squarely in a varna,or in between varnas. Most of trader or Vaishya caste today originated from Artisan and Traders Guilds in Ancient India. For example: My own caste is considerd a cross between Brahmin and Rajput ( Kshatriya ) caste. By Gotra, which denote ancestory, i am a Brahmin ,but most of members of my Caste has taken up militaristic duties. So it is considered a cross of Brahmins and Rajputs. Muslim converts from my caste take the surname Khan. A Caste, or individual could rise or fall in scale of Varna depending on his conduct.
Among Muslims, Social division occurs on three level: Ashraf, Azlaf, Arzal which could be considered similar to varnas among Hindus. This classification was constituted by Zaiuddin Barani, a turkish scholar who established it by fatwah-e-jahandari. Ashraf muslims are high born muslims who trace their lineage to muhammad and High caste hindu converts ( Brahmins; there are more Syeds in India than Gulf+Iran combined), Azlaf ie low caste converts( from Vaishya and Shudras) and lowest Arzals ( from Pancham/Dalits/outcastes ).
Along with this, muslims have castes among themselves which they call Biradris ( literal meaning brotherhood).
That been said, Castes should be seen in a historical prespective. Caste system, by modern standards is retrograde but Historically it was most liberal of any system in the world ( where slavery was present till 150 years ago).India, especially Hindu India did not had any slaves. So even the most lowest on Caste Hierarchy ( a chandal ) has free agency. He could not be enslaved, killed, or Sold, and neither could his property be confiscated by someone from higher class. The only disadvantage he faced was that he could not marry someone from Higher caste and was excluded from education system. His condition was much better than that of medieval slave.
Hinduism just makes people numb about their real life under different pretexts.
Abrahamic religions on the contrary, will not numb people, rather, they promote their followers to be ambitious and seek for more land, power, economy, ... The result is obvious for these religions. On a personal level, they lead people to achieve more, but on the society scale, they promote unending wars.
While i would agree with you that Hinduism make people insular, but it does begs a question; In comparison to whom?
When compared to modern secular thought, Hinduism does make people insular. But i would not agree with your assertion that it makes people insular when compared to Abrahmic religions.
The whole "Hindus are insular" was a racial construct propagated by British and does not have any logical explanation. Europeans under the firm hand of Church were as much insular as Hindus, if not more.
Regarding Indians dis-interest in conquests, it has to be seen in view of geographical realities. India has second most Arable land in world ( even though being seventh in total area), has largest irrigated land in the world and is 1/3 as large as whole of Europe. India has always been a land of Plenty where fertile alluvial is 4000meter thick (thus is unexhaustibe). Northern and Eastern reaches of India are lined up by unpassable Himalayan cordilleras ( four parallel ranges with average height of 6000m ), Ocean in south and Deserts ( dast-e-lut and Dat-e-Kavir ) and Central Asian steppes ( which before irrigation were only good for grazing) to North and North east.
Land use statistics by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indians never had any need to expand beyond it's borders.
Indian geographical extent is sometime lost on people because maps use mercator projection. In this projection size of landmasses increase as one moves towards poles.They become popular as a line drawn on mercator maps gave true bearings thus proving themselves to be a good navigational tools.
the Mercator projection distorts the size and shape of large objects, as the scale increases from the Equator to the poles, where it becomes infinite.
Mercator projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Even if you view history as a whole, most of Ancient and medieval conquests have been carried out by Steppe nomads and have coincided with beginning of little ice age or out of desperation. During favorable whether condition livestock of steppe nomads increases, so when weather conditions become unfavorable they have to either let their horses die or invade their neighbour using those horses. Mongol invasion started at the beginning of little ice age. And Arabian conquest of Byzatine and Persia started after a long spell of good weather. There may have been many religious preachers before muhammad, but they were not able cement their power since they did not have military resources that muhammad had at their disposal.
The invasion of Huns or Hepthalite as they are called in India started around 500CE. This was because of construction of Great wall of China. It's successful construction started a domino effect by limiting eastward extent of Turco-Mongol tribes thus making pressure on eastern edge of their dominion. One tribe displaced other who in turn displaced other finally with Persia and India being invaded by those tribes.
But, about Hinduism, No, hindus are not peaceful either. There has been many incidents, like the one that Modi himself is somehow engaged in it, that hindus have committed atrocities.
While there are some examples of religious violence on part of Hindus ( though much less than Abrahmics ), you have taken up a wrong example to demonstrate it ( Thus the correction ).
The incident you are referring to is 2001-02 Gujarat riots. Those riots were started when Muslims burnt a train full of Hindu Pilgrims resulting in death of 59 people and injuring another 48. Hindus started riots against muslims which lead to death of 790 muslims and 254 Hindus. Modi is accused of not controlling these riots for first three days as he took three days to call Army to quell riots ( though his neighbouring state of Maharashtra and Rajasthan which were under Congress rule refused to send Armed Police from their state ).
Now whatever one's view may be on violence or even religious violence , one could not expect Hindus to sit back and suffer aggression done bu Muslims onto them in silence.Burning of Sabarmati express was unilateral and unprovoked aggression done by Muslims onto Hindus, as a collective. You could not expect that a government with it's limited power could contain anger and bloodthirst of 95% of it's population. Government agencies like Police ( including that of US ) are always outnumbered and outgunned and are not equipped to deal with mass uprisings. There is nothing Modi could have done.
I don't know about Jainism.
Probably because they do not indulge is newsworthy acts.
Personally, I think all of these religions are doomed. Eastern systems of believes, make people numb, Abrahamics fail on the society level, ... all of them have big problems.
I myself am an agonist. If you remember a conversation we had on this thread some 11 months- a year ago ,when some Iranian started abusing Atheist and foreign migrated Iranians ( you use to have Iran's flag at that time ); I have stated that according to what i believe and what is possible by strict application is that existence of god could not be determined.
Science, could and has refuted existence of a control-freak god as he is depicted in most tradition, but Science could not disprove the idea of existence of a God as our Knowledge, senses and techniques suffer from limitation, of being limited by capability of it's possessor ie human. This is one of an axiom of epistemology.
