Iran unveils hypersonic weapon 'Fattah'

[LeGenD]

Tracking these systems requires extensive sensor constellations, they're talking of space based sensors. Forgetting the cost, these sensors will be one of first target in a conflict. Now, suppose you can detect and track them, what's your plan for actually shooting down the warhead? One way you could possibly do it is extensive ground based electromatic guns firing mass hypersonic shells in the hope you have had enough warning time to fire enough to fire enough hyprsonic projectiles to possibly shoot it down. Notice the theme, "extensive", "possibly". Even if you could find a way to reliably shoot them down, good luck defending your kill chain and do it all in a way that will not bankrupt you given the numbers you'll need to defend a large enough area.

Hence why I am saying forget this notion of anyone countering these systems in (at least) the next ten years.

Dear, this is impossible. Russia has kinetic ABM capability but it could not disable Starlink, let alone other constellations.

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

Stupid trolls talk nonsense! Iran has made several innovations and here is one here:

The locally developed Keyhan (Cosmos) is the world's first on-road HF radar system ever built and is tasked with the early warning role in Iran's powerful integrated air defense network.

 

[Philosopher]

Absolute rubbish

Anti-missile (AM) and anti-air (AA) systems are not designed to hit the target, they are designed with extremely precise proximity detonators that explode when they are in front of and below their target - this drenches the target in shrapnel hoping that one or more systems will become damaged causing the missile to fail.

Bro, what are you on about? literally most anti ballistic missile use hit to kill i.e kinetic kill. Have you not heard of hit to kill systems? Pac-4/ MM-104 is one example:

The PAC-3 family of missiles defend against incoming threats using direct body-to-body contact that delivers exponentially more kinetic energy on the target than can be achieved with blast-fragmentation mechanisms.

PAC-3

Discover PAC-3: A world leader in defense technology for air defense missile systems, delivering unmatched capability across multi-domain environments.

www.lockheedmartin.com

Moreover, getting close to these systems is the challenge. Due to their maneuvering, how would you calculate your trajectory to get close enough to effect them? Moreover, you think a proxmity system would even adequately work against them?

MH370 which was shot down in 2014 was "struck" by a Buk missile and it received over 700 penetrating breaches that each looked like a single bullet hole from a handgun -

A plane is not the same as a hypersonic missile, is it?

that is how an AM/AA kills you. It doesn't matter how fast a missile is travelling if an AM missile detonates ahead of it the 12,000mph target will be shredded by the shrapnel cloud when it runs into it.

So then why are anti ballistic missiles like Arrow-3 using kinetic hit to kill method? What about THAAD? literally most anti missile defences do not utilise primixy fuse.

Promixty fuse systems would NOT be effective against hypersonic missiles.

This is why all the major powers are working on missiles that can "zig zag" at high speed to evade AM systems, currently no missile can do this because the aerodynamic forces can destroy it so currently AM missiles still only have to explode in front of any incoming enemy missile to take it out.

You're literally in a thread about a missile which can extensively maneuver. The "zig zag" method is one way to do it, not the only way.

 

[kingQamaR]

Bro, what are you on about? literally most anti ballistic missile use hit to kill i.e kinetic kill. Have you not heard of hit to kill systems? Pac-4/ MM-104 is one example:

PAC-3

Discover PAC-3: A world leader in defense technology for air defense missile systems, delivering unmatched capability across multi-domain environments.

www.lockheedmartin.com

Moreover, getting close to these systems is the challenge. Due to their maneuvering, how would you calculate your trajectory to get close enough to effect them? Moreover, you think a proxmity system would even adequately work against them?




A plane is not the same as a hypersonic missile, is it?



So then why are anti ballistic missiles like Arrow-3 using kinetic hit to kill method? What about THAAD? literally most anti missile defences do not utilise primixy fuse.

Promixty fuse systems would NOT be effective against hypersonic missiles.



You're literally in a thread about a missile which can extensively maneuver. The "zig zag" method is one way to do it, not the only way.

It is relatively easy to stop a missile, using a slower one to do the job. The ultra-modern systems calculate, in a matter of micro-seconds, the speed, distance and trajectory of an incoming missile. Your own defensive missile is then fired to pre-calculated co-ordinates where the two will 'meet'. Obviously, early detection is essential. Hello satellite!

 

[Philosopher]

It is relatively easy to stop a missile

No, it's really not.

using a slower one to do the job.

This is only true if you can 1) detect the target 2) predict its trajectory 3) have enough time to act against it

The ultra-modern systems calculate, in a matter of micro-seconds, the speed, distance and trajectory of an incoming missile. Your own defensive missile is then fired to pre-calculated co-ordinates where the two will 'meet'. Obviously, early detection is essential. Hello satellite!

This is only true for a relatively pure ballistic missile who path is indeed relatively easy to predict. How will you predict the trajectory of a system performing psedo random manevers in its mid course flight path and even more so in its end phase? Answer: You really can not accomplish this to a reliable enough extend to actually intercept it.

The only real way to increase your odds is to fire mass missiles at it. For obvious reasons this would be madness.

 

[glablo]

Interestingly, it appears that the solid fuel rocket motor continues to burn until it lands on the ground target.
If it ignites 400 km before the target as previously announced, it will burn very slowly for 200 seconds assuming an average velocity of 2000 m/s.
If we are using an engine with 200 kg of fuel and 300 seconds of specific impulse, it will generate a small thrust of 2.94 KN on average for a sustained period of time.
This thrust is the thrust that can sustain a speed of 3000 m/s at an altitude of 35 km.
It looks like they are aiming to glide for a while at an altitude just barely lower than the effective altitude of THAAD, SM3, etc.
Conversely, it does not have the thrust to make the violent trajectory changes that are expected on SNS.
If you are aiming for a target to maintain velocity and slide in on a solid fuel rocket rather than a rapid evasive trajectory in the final stages,
It is understandable that Iran would promote this as a hypersonic weapon.

 

[dbc]

@LeGenD

Do I think these missiles can never be countered? of course they can. Point is, US, or anyone else for that matter does not currently possess the means to reliably counter these systems and will not for a least the next 10 years. The issue with countering these systems is even on paper it's hard to come up with a way.

I've said this before the US has intercepted MACH 5 cruise missiles at high altitude and MACH 3 in sea skimming profile. Like the Russian KH-31A/P, the US purchased hundreds of these missiles from Russia in the 90's to use as Supersonic Low-Altitude Targets (SLAT).

For a naval vessel the most reliable counter to the Fattah is to simply move. US satellites provide early warning of a launch and in 5 minutes the vessel is somewhere else. With no means to provide target updates the Fattah will hit a whole lot of nothing when it arrives. If Iran plans to target US bases with the Fattah then the outcome will likely depend on the facilities at that base, the interception capabilities of the host nation and allied forces in the vicinity. A well defended US base will be able to effectively counter the threat.

One more aspect of a missile maneuvering at hypersonic speed that you seem to overlook. The turn radius of the SR-71 Blackbird flying at MACH 3 was 50 miles. Turning the Fattah traveling at hypersonic speeds with thrust vector will be akin to trying to steer the Titanic with a teaspoon. Contrary to the widely held belief the TVC on the Fattah is meant for endgame maneuvering when the vehicle slows down enough to receive mid course updates.

 

[kingQamaR]

That's complete rubbish. Any known or planned trajectory can be intercepted regardless of speed of the missile. This zig-zag movements are a help but not great , due to high G loading during manoeuvring and velocity loss from from manoeuvring, they’re are most helpful during booster flight . Still most of their zig-zagging is due to course correction to stay somewhat on the target.

 

[mohsen]

I didn't say everyone. Yes you had something valuable to offer to Russia .
I am just saying that hypersonic tech is not irans accomplishment.

Look buddy. Iran didn't achieve Hypersonic overnight, it just shows your lack of info.

This missile's size is close to Iran's first accurate missile "Fateh-110" which had a range of 250km, over decades it's range was upgraded to 300km-> 500km (F313)-> 750km(Zolfaghar)-> 1000k(Dezful) and finally to 1450km(Kheybar-shekan), they promised to increase the range even more. this missile "Fattah" is just one step forward among other Iranian missiles, nothing more.

You said imported engine, so when and which engine do you think Iran has bought from Russia?!!! they only developed the Iskandar which has different dimensions and a range of 500km. now west is pressuring Iran to not sell it's ballistic missiles to Russia (not otherwise).

 

[Mehdipersian]

Absolute rubbish

Anti-missile (AM) and anti-air (AA) systems are not designed to hit the target, they are designed with extremely precise proximity detonators that explode when they are in front of and below their target - this drenches the target in shrapnel hoping that one or more systems will become damaged causing the missile to fail. MH370 which was shot down in 2014 was "struck" by a Buk missile and it received over 700 penetrating breaches that each looked like a single bullet hole from a handgun - that is how an AM/AA kills you. It doesn't matter how fast a missile is travelling if an AM missile detonates ahead of it the 12,000mph target will be shredded by the shrapnel cloud when it runs into it. This is why all the major powers are working on missiles that can "zig zag" at high speed to evade AM systems, currently no missile can do this because the aerodynamic forces can destroy it so currently AM missiles still only have to explode in front of any incoming enemy missile to take it out.

All anti missile systems are "hit to kill"

 

[khansaheeb]

Iran unveils ‘hypersonic missile able to beat air defences’

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Iran sabre rattling with launch of hypersonic missile in threat to West and Israel​

Story by Robert Fisk • Yesterday 18:47

Daily Express
Iran Unveils Highly Advanced Hypersonic Missiles

• 
  Al JazeeraIran weapons: Tehran unveils first hypersonic ballistic missile
  3:07
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  WIONIran missile launch likely to heighten western concerns
  2:12

Iran has unveiled a hypersonic missile in a move which will cause alarm amongst Israel and Western leaders as it says it can bypass and destroy all air defence systems. Tehran claims the missile is impossible to shoot down and can travel at 15 times the speed of sound.
The weapon, which has been dubbed the "Fattah", was revealed by Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps at a ceremony attended by President Ebrahim Raisi and the regime's top military chiefs.
Iran's president said: "Today we feel that the deterrent power has been formed ... this power is an anchor of lasting security and peace for the regional countries."
And General Amir Ali Hajizadeh, the head of the Revolutionary Guard's aerospace programme, declared: "There exists no system that can rival or counter this missile".
Iran's assertion about the capabilities of the missile will cause deep concern for Israel, Iran's archenemy in the region, and also in the West.


The Fattah missile with an Iran flag behind© Fars News Agency

Women looking at the Fattah missile© REX/ Shutterstock
Western leaders were already very anxious about the increasing military might of Iran, especially its new security pact with Russia which is helping Moscow with the invasion of Ukraine.
News of the ceremony was broadcast on Iranian state television, with viewers told the missile can destroy "the enemy's advanced anti-missile systems and is a big generational leap in the field of missiles".
The report added: "It can bypass the most advanced anti-ballistic missile systems of the United States and the Zionist regime, including Israel's Iron Dome."
Daily Telegraph reports that the Fattah system has a range of 1,400km, can move in and out of space and, according to one Iranian general, can hit targets in Israel in as little as 400 seconds.
READ MORE: Appleby Horse Fair chaos as bomb squad deployed over suspect item


The missile on stage in Iran© REX/ Shutterstock

A picture of the Fattah missile in two sections© Fars News Agency
Tensions are running high in the region with Israel and Iran locked in a shadow war where they have attacked each other's infrastructure and ships.

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Israel thinks that Tehran's nuclear programme is an existential threat and is suspected of launching covert attacks on its nuclear facilities.
And experts have warned that Israel could be at war with Iran by the summer if Tehran does not abandon its race for nuclear weapons.
Israel's prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has suggested that he may take decisive military action against the nuclear programme in the near future.
If this happens it could lead to open warfare in the region.
It has been suggested by some Israeli media outlets that the hypersonic missile may have been built with technological support from Russia.
Iran has been helping Vladimir Putin in his invasion of Ukraine by providing his forces with drones and missiles.
To reciprocate, Moscow is sending fighter jets to Iran, and it is thought it could be assisting the regime in building up its military strength in other areas too.


The Fattah missile is black with white writing on© Fars News Agency

 

[mohsen]

If Iran plans to target US bases with the Fattah then the outcome will likely depend on the facilities at that base, the interception capabilities of the host nation and allied forces in the vicinity. A well defended US base will be able to effectively counter the threat.

Fattah is designed to hit the air defense systems, and will be fired along other missiles, either they will turn off their air defenses or keep them exposed to this missile.

In each case, this missile has done it's job.

 

[dbc]

Fattah is designed to hit the air defense systems, and will be fired along other missiles, either they will turn off their air defenses or keep them exposed to this missile.

In each case, this missile has done it's job.

..er.. it’s not an anti-radiation missile.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Congratulation Iran, no doubt that you have mastered the HGV technology by yourself through decade of research.

Anyone who discredits this milestone achievement is simply disrespectful and has no manner to behave like a proper human.

 

[mohsen]

..er.. it’s not an anti-radiation missile.

So was Yemenis missiles and drones. yet, we all know what happened in Saudi Arabia!