Iran did not accuse Pakistan in UN for guard's abduction: FO

[PoKeMon]

Because that 'if' is for which Pakistan has been asking for 'evidence' & Sartaj Aziz - the de-facto FM of Pakistan - is record on offering Joint Operation to Iran to fight these terrorists & recover the captured guards if actionable intelligence is given about them being here on Pakistani Soil....!

So either de-facto FM is lying or the Iranians are or there is a communication gap between the two with no-one really lying !

The best bet is to present the evidence to the Media or to the UN so that what is what is substantiated !

Yaar the whole premise is evidence. Now the question arise who should get the evidence. If kidnappers are in pakistan, onus lies with pakistan, you can not expect Iran to fetch evidence inside pakistan. Sorry to say if they hire someone to get one, another afridi fiasco may happen.

I dont want to drag India into all of this, infact I dont want to interfere in pak-iran issue, but since I read your post so want to ask. This whole evidence thing is similar to pakistan asking India proofs of Dawood being in Karachi. How can we give you evidence? If you are sincere, its too easy for you to get many, same with Iran case.

The chances of Iran soldiers in pakistan are too high going by common sense. The only reason pak FM is digressing can be avoidance of direct conflict with another group in already troubled times.

 

[Armstrong]

Yaar the whole premise is evidence. Now the question arise who should get the evidence. If kidnappers are in pakistan, onus lies with pakistan, you can not expect Iran to fetch evidence inside pakistan. Sorry to say if they hire someone to get one, another afridi fiasco may happen.

I dont want to drag India into all of this, infact I dont want to interfere in pak-iran issue, but since I read your post so want to ask. This whole evidence thing is similar to pakistan asking India proofs of Dawood being in Karachi. How can we give you evidence? If you are sincere, its too easy for you to get many, same with Iran case.

The chances of Iran soldiers in pakistan are too high going by common sense. The only reason pak FM is digressing can be avoidance of direct conflict with another group in already troubled times.

Iran can at the very least fetch enough evidence to tell us whether they crossed over into Pakistan or not or did they just happen to feel a disturbance in the Force telling them that the Terrorists are leaving Iranian territory & going into Pakistan !

Lacking that they can at the very least point towards the terrorist camps of Jaish-al-Adal that they maintain are present in Pakistan so that we can at the very least search for the Guards in those Districts !

Lacking that still Pakistan conducted an Investigation & it concluded that they found nothing to suggest the Terrorists entered into Pakistan - This has been corroborated by the Chief Minister of Baluchistan, the Defense Minister of Pakistan, the de-facto Foreign Minister of Pakistan & the FO spokesperson !

And each of them maintained that any actionable evidence/intelligence by Iran that led them to believe that the terrorists are in Pakistan, were it to be given to Pakistan would acted upon with the de-facto Foreign Minister even going a step-further by proposing Joint-Operations here on Pakistani Soil if something substantiates the presence of those terrorists here in Pakistan !

And the chance of Iranian Soldiers crossing over onto Pakistan is fairly low because if they don't know where to look - what would they be doing here ? And if they do where to look then why aren't they, reportedly, sharing with us & then asking why aren't we doing anything about this !

I think this is because of miscommunication between the Pakistani side & the Iranian side & if the two sides were to just sit down & listen to each other maybe a break of the deadlock can be achieved !

 

[PoKeMon]

Iran can at the very least fetch enough evidence to tell us whether they crossed over into Pakistan or not or did they just happen to feel a disturbance in the Force telling them that the Terrorists are leaving Iranian territory & going into Pakistan !

Lacking that they can at the very least point towards the terrorist camps of Jaish-al-Adal that they maintain are present in Pakistan so that we can at the very least search for the Guards in those Districts !

Lacking that still Pakistan conducted an Investigation & it concluded that they found nothing to suggest the Terrorists entered into Pakistan - This has been corroborated by the Chief Minister of Baluchistan, the Defense Minister of Pakistan, the de-facto Foreign Minister of Pakistan & the FO spokesperson !

And each of them maintained that any actionable evidence/intelligence by Iran that led them to believe that the terrorists are in Pakistan, were it to be given to Pakistan would acted upon with the de-facto Foreign Minister even going a step-further by proposing Joint-Operations here on Pakistani Soil if something substantiates the presence of those terrorists here in Pakistan !

That's sound very professional but certainly lacks empathy toward a nation which can not get into pakistan and look for their soldiers which are bound to die in short time.

In my knowledge, Iran-pak border has joint patrol mechanism, so if terrorist chose a path which is left for pakistan to patrol, Iran can not get much evidence. Not to forget the tough terrain out there. Benefit of doubt goes to pakistan forces equally.

I wonder just in case its later comes out as terrorist hiding in pakistan only, such statements would do irreversible damage to relationships just like in osama case.

I dont have much insight into dynamics of those area, so cant argue more. have to take things on face value. Anyways I can just wish an early release of all soldiers. God help them.

 

[Armstrong]

That's sound very professional but certainly lacks empathy toward a nation which can not get into pakistan and look for their soldiers which are bound to die in short time.

In my knowledge, Iran-pak border has joint patrol mechanism, so if terrorist chose a path which is left for pakistan to patrol, Iran can not get much evidence. Not to forget the tough terrain out there. Benefit of doubt goes to pakistan forces equally.

I wonder just in case its later comes out as terrorist hiding in pakistan only, such statements would do irreversible damage to relationships just like in osama case.

I dont have much insight into dynamics of those area, so cant argue more. have to take things on face value. Anyways I can just wish an early release of all soldiers. God help them.

I don't know what more 'empathy' is required when we've not only investigated on our side but also offered joint-operation on our soil if some actionable intelligence/evidence is given !

Even in Osama's case Pakistan never said that OBL isn't hiding in Pakistan....only that we've got no evidence to suggest that he is....Musharraf is on record as stating that OBL could be in Pakistan just as likely as he could be in Afghanistan, Yemen or the African Maghrib !

And then it was later the ISI that unearthed the evidence (the contacts of OBL's couriers) about OBL & gave it to the CIA & the rest is as they say is History !

 

[PoKeMon]

I don't know what more 'empathy' is required when we've not only investigated on our side but also offered joint-operation on our soil if some actionable intelligence/evidence is given !

Even in Osama's case Pakistan never said that OBL isn't hiding in Pakistan....only that we've got no evidence to suggest that he is....Musharraf is on record as stating that OBL could be in Pakistan just as likely as he could be in Afghanistan, Yemen or the African Maghrib !

And then it was later the ISI that unearthed the evidence (the contacts of OBL's couriers) about OBL & gave it to the CIA & the rest is as they say is History !

Yes pakistan has gone on record saying Osama was not in pakistan and what was the role(or no role) of pakistan in helping US is a moot topic, certainly not for this thread. That can easily be predicted by their behavior toward those who actually helped US in nabbing Osama.

Lets keep it out. Thanks for giving more insight into Iran-pak proceedings.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Contrary to popular belief I don't think that the priorities could be anymore Pro-Iran at any time then they are now because of 3 reasons:

(i) Pakistan is exhausted of nearly 3 decades of instability in the region & now we - the Government & the Army - want peace to rebuild ourselves & our economy & they're doing pretty much everything to achieve that !

(iii) Pakistan has an Afghanistan that increasingly looks like it'll plunge in Civil War post-2014, a not so quiet border with India & internal security challenges of the highest order which means no one....not the GHQ...not the Civilian Executive wants to open up yet another front to bog us down so the Iran issue is High Priority for us !

(iii) If Ambassador Zafar Hilali is to be believed when he quoted his conversation with the Iranian High Commissioner/Diplomat to Pakistan when the former was serving than Iran can play very....very.....very dirty which pretty much is where they excel at - everywhere from the African Maghrib to Iraq is testament to that !

We can't afford that right now !

and i agree 100% with u on this and agree with everything u wrote as there was not disagreement b/w us in the first place.........But please concentrate on what im trying to tell.

1)Priorities.......

u explained it fully.



2) Different times........

Now understand this......The Raza Shah Pehlvi thingy is of pre revolution times and the main reason was in those times that we were western stooge in this region so west needed another supporting power to watch our backs when we r to concentrate on our battle for west ie Kashmir Battles and Soviat thing.......+ We were to play a role as a first line of defence again communist block to spread over to the Middle East. So then everybody not just Raza Shah but those Saudis, Israelis, and all ''Muslim Brothers'' supported every way possible. But we were naive as to start relying upon that always hence we got disappointed in every testing phase of our history.

After soviat war and Iran's revolution things changed drastically. In Iran Pakistan Relations The New Irani Governments post revolutions were sided with all those who opposed west and her hegemony. Hence we didnt go along with Iranis as we were still living in past as we relied on ''Muslim Thingy'' and never updated our foreign policy and relations according to changing global atmosphere. Hence why we never really got along with iran and this gave Indians a space to grow some sort of relations with them. If this wasnt for our outdated policies Indians mind u would have never ever able to do that. Now this let to their support for india in Kashmir and then now its new face is Chahbahar Port that they hope will neutralize Gwadar and her Potential.
.
Now Abt Riggi....Those were times of either Mushy or PPP.......There was no Nawaz Sharif there. Remember this always that our Armed Forces r all for regional peace even with India as its the need of the hour atleast at the moment. Even our Corps Commander of RWP said that India is not our greatest thread but its Internal Thread. I nor he means that Indians have became suddenly became our blood brothers but all he meant was that right now with a lot of countries playing a World Cup or Olympics of terrorism in Baluchistan, we can atleast divide them by making some sort of peace or understanding at the moment with some parties in order to isolate the actual culprits ie CIA and MOSAD. By this we will be in a better tactical position..

So our armed Forces in the times of Mushy and PPP were going all out for regional peace hence this Riggi thing happened for Iran's benefits.



3)Different set of people with Different agenda in Mind................


Now keeping in view with mentioned all Riggi and geo political saga, during mushy and PPP times we did certain things(Riggi thing is one of them) that made iranis also trust us and made their foreign minister and Ahmedinejad visit pakistan hence we signed two important agreements.

i) None will support or give its territory to any third party to attack each other. Which in my view was absolutely vital for both countries as this will neutralize the indian planner to invade baluchistan through iran and any covert op using irani territory to infiltrate baluchistan.

ii) This 2009 Border Agreement.



Those were the times when we were moving ahead in some way.......But all that has been disturbed by this PML-N Government. Nawaz Sharif as we know is a Saudi Stooge and his government is responsible for this all. Cant u see after all those Saudi Royal visits concluded, suddenly out of blue this Guard issue happens?

On the other hand Iranis r also monitoring the geo political situation and Nawaz Sharif's (who is now PM of Pakistan) loyalty to Saudis. Hence after his uncuth behavior and not allowing nor asking armed forces to take action is making iranis angry. Because every country in the world value its citizens and soldiers(and we pakistanis, we r always a slave of west in this regard though but we shouldnt expect others to be like us) and its anger is justified. Hence the Sartaj Aziz saga and Zafar Hilal thing.


But if this government in its ownself is not taking any action in accordance with border agreement in 2009. Dont expect Iranis to behave rationally with us.

The agenda of this Government is very clear to the Iranis.

 

[SHAMK9]

Iran handled this in an immature way hence the bitter reaction from Pakistan.

To be fair though, India was talking more about this situation than both Iran and Pakistan combined, running false stories every other day, they never get tired.

 

[American Pakistani]

Iran knows how to make enemies.

Just check last year's survey & one will really be surprise to see that it had the most favorable views in Pakistan.

 

[pakdefender]

They were conscripts posted at the border with Pakistan

is your army not a volunteer army ? from what you wrote it seems people are forced to join the security services , in scuh cases desertion can not be ruled out

 

[pakdefender]

Iran can play very....very.....very dirty

they have been playing dirty inside Pakistan for quite some time now , iran has been funneling weapons and explosives into Pakistan though clerics aligned with them all though the past decade , this is all well known but no one calls it out openly as in Pakistan sectarian views are not accpeted in mainstream , unlike iran where they wear ther sect as a badge of honour not much different from Saudi Arabia , but while Saudi Arabia does get some bashing in the mainstream media in Pakistan for some reason calling out iran as one of the sponsor of bloodshed in Pakistan is not the 'cool' thing to do

 

[Serpentine]

@Armstrong

You have been constantly saying that Iran should provide evidence that they are in Pakistan. It doesn't even make sense when Iran doesn't have any access inside Pakistan's territory.

So where are they now? Where did they come from? They attacked from Pakistani side of border and disappeared into thin air?
Didn't Rigi attack Iran for 8 years from inside Pakistan's soil which was his safe haven? Is it too extraordinary to happen?


I've seen numerous Pakistani members here blame Afghanistan for not protecting its borders with Pakistan and hence allowing Taliban to come and go. Now that this case is against you, instead of seeing things logically, everyone has turned super nationalist and acting too emotional and patriotic, such a sad turn of events.

People should open their eyes and see things correctly, don't let emotions blind you.

 

[dawn_news]

Iran is fueling Anti iranian sentiments in the minds of Pakistanis.In which long run is not Good for iran considering that as per survey's.Iran was not the most favourted country in syria or iraq or even Russia but Pakistan.

Recently their new leadership has also warned turkey.I don't know what are they upto

Pakistanis are brainwashed people, they have been brainwashed from birth with idea of ummah. No wonder Pakistan is on top even when it comes to favoring Iran, a country who have been in bed with India since mullahs take over.

Nationalism is very weak in Pakistan.

 

[Armstrong]

@Armstrong

You have been constantly saying that Iran should provide evidence that they are in Pakistan. It doesn't even make sense when Iran doesn't have any access inside Pakistan's territory.

So where are they now? Where did they come from? They attacked from Pakistani side of border and disappeared into thin air?
Didn't Rigi attack Iran for 8 years from inside Pakistan's soil which was his safe haven? Is it too extraordinary to happen?


I've seen numerous Pakistani members here blame Afghanistan for not protecting its borders with Pakistan and hence allowing Taliban to come and go. Now that this case is against you, instead of seeing things logically, everyone has turned super nationalist and acting too emotional and patriotic, such a sad turn of events.

People should open their eyes and see things correctly, don't let emotions blind you.

From memory I'll quote Pakistan's de-facto Foreign Minister : Iran told us that because they are not in Iran than they must be in Pakistan & when we asked them for anything....anything at all that confirms their suspicion - We got nothing ! Despite that we conducted an investigation on our side of the border & so far as our findings have told us 'we've found no evidence to suggest that the Iranian Guards were ever taken into Pakistan' if Iran still thinks that they were please give us some actionable intelligence/evidence so that we can investigate more & later on even conduct a Joint-Operation.

What more do you expect of us ?

I don't think this is hyper-nationalism of any kind.

And by-the-way this hyper-nationalism works both ways, my Brother !

Most Iranians too are not understanding that we've got no incentive....none whatsoever to not cooperate with Iran on this because if Jaish-al-Adal is a Sectarian Organization than it most definitely has links with Sectarian Outfits operating in Pakistan & if its a Separatist Organization than it most definitely has links with Separatist Organizations on the Pakistani Side - Either way their presence is a danger to Our People !

Furthermore Pakistan's precarious situation with respect to Internal Security, a Dilapidated Economy, an increasingly Unstable Afghanistan & our Security Challenges to our East do not allow us to have bad relations with Iran at this point in time & so even if we didn't want to have good relations with Iran, which we do (Pakistan is the most Pro-Iran country in the world at least up till now), our compulsions are forcing us to cooperate fully with Iran !

But how.....how do you expect us to cooperate in this when you are saying that they are in Pakistan, we've looked & can't find anything suggesting the same & we're asking you back if you've got some actionable intelligence do share with us so that we can investigate some more & have even proposed Joint-Operation to rid ourselves of this terrorism - I don't know what else Pakistan can do ?

 

[haman10]

fortunately , iran is not a failed state , thus we cannot give safe haven to terrorist groups .

so if any of them wanted to kidnap pakistani soldiers and flee to our lands , they'll be vaporized by our UCAVs . our special forces will be deployed and they'll secure pakistani soldiers in full force .

thats because we are a normal , powerful state . not a failed one stuck in civil war !!! our cities dont witness daily bombing . our people dont fear being blown up each day ..... we have a robust military , economy and politics .

=====================

BUT , as i'm a very bad person , if i was in charge here in iran , i would invite all of anti-pakistan terrorist cells to set up camps along the border (just the border) and use them to launch attacks against pakistan and kidnap your soldiers !!!

and if you guys made protested , i would respond :

Thats how i roll baby doll .....