Iran and Israel, archenemies or potential friends?

[Arian]

We didn't get weaker because of those arms supplies, but because of Khomeini's stubbornness. He could ended the war much earlier. But Israel, the US and Turkey indeed benefited from the war between Iran and Iraq, the two most powerful states of the Middle-East. Especially Turkey benefited a lot (economically) from this war.

I didn't say we got weaker for those arms supplied by them, what I said was that it was in their interest to supply those arms to us to prolong the bloody war. Also, the USA and Israel lobbied to sell more arms to Iraq to completely neutralize the advantage of those arms that we needed them.

Everyone benefited from the war. Especially the Persian Gulf Arabs. Kuwait and KSA decided to increase their oil outputs to keep the oil prices low which went against the interest of Iraq who eyed oil revenues for recovery. That's why Iraq refused to pay back the +2 Billion US dollars that Kuwait had given Iraq and that happened to be the initiation of Iraq's hostility toward Kuwait and hence the Persian Gulf war. Also, it separated Iraq from the lovers relationship that they had with the USA because of the Iraq-Iran war. That's what I meant. Iraq and Iran got crushed in the war, after the war Iraq became the poorest country of the world because of heavy loans that she had to pay back. Hence, one of the most aggressive and dangerous enemies of Israel, the Saddam Iraq, got strongly weakened. Iran, on the other hand, lost most of its sensitive oil/gasoline infrastructure. Our oil production output fell down to less than 2.5 million barrels per day from ~4.5 million barrels per day and up to this day we're still struggling to reach that peak. Iran, as one of the main exporters of gasoline and chemical productions before the revolution, became the importer of gasoline. And many many other things.

We can't be friends with Israel, the Shah had figured that out in his last years, but it was too late for that. The Shah wanted to become independent from the dominance of the USA, but it was too late. The Shah emerged as a rising star in global decisions from a puppet who had a weak mentality and a very shaky character, but he got overthrown when he had started to realize our problems. A very sad story if you ask me.

Also, I do agree with Era about Khomeini's decision to continue the war. I personally think of Khomeini as a very wise commander for the war. Saddam didn't want to stop the war because he had changed his mind, he wanted to stop Iran from incursion and wanted to reinforce. Khomeini had a natural talent to be a political leader in my opinion, even if we disagree with many of his ideas and decisions.

 

[Surenas]

If Khomeini ended the war,Saddam would definitely buy tons of arms and military stuff again and after becoming a big monster,attack Iran again.He was like a injured dog,he said expliciltly that he wants to occupy Iran especially Khuzestan.If Khomeini ended the war,we could relax for some 3 or 4 years,but after that Saddam would attack Iran again,this time much more powerful than before.

No, I don't think Saddam would again dare to make such move. The Iranians showed him how determinate they were to protect their country. Besides that, Iraq was spending billions on weapons and other Arab states even proposed to end the war and they would pay Iran a huge some of money. Iraq couldn't buy more weapons, because they simply hadn't the money for it. And I don't think that after a peace deal the other Arab states would give/lend Saddam again a huge some of money. But in despite of al this reasons, Khomeini pursued the war and it's because of his policy hundreds of thousands of Iranians lost their life.

 

[IranZamin]

No, I don't think Saddam would again dare to make such move. The Iranians showed him how determinate they were to protect their country. Besides that, Iraq was spending billions on weapons and other Arab states even proposed to end the war and they would pay Iran a huge some of money. Iraq couldn't buy more weapons, because they simply hadn't the money for it. And I don't think that after a peace deal the other Arab states would give/lend Saddam again a huge some of money. But in despite of al this reasons, Khomeini pursued the war and it's because of his policy hundreds of thousands of Iranians lost their life.

Stop spewing out horse.****. You forgot how after the war in 1988 Saddam re armed himself and created a monster army in 1991? to invade kuwait, just in 3 years time he reorganized his army with help of his gangster friends in Washington ! ? he had so much support from his masters in Washington that they could arm him in no-time. No doubt after a possible cease fire in 1982 that son of a b.itch would try to harass us again.

 

[Surenas]

We can't be friends with Israel, the Shah had figured that out in his last years, but it was too late for that. The Shah wanted to become independent from the dominance of the USA, but it was too late. The Shah emerged as a rising star in global decisions from a puppet who had a weak mentality and a very shaky character, but he got overthrown when he had started to realize our problems. A very sad story if you ask me.

I agree on this one. Eventually we would get independent, but I preferred the way Shah had in his minds.

Also, I do agree with Era about Khomeini's decision to continue the war. I personally think of Khomeini as a very wise commander for the war. Saddam didn't want to stop the war because he had changed his mind, he wanted to stop Iran from incursion and wanted to reinforce. Khomeini had a natural talent to be a political leader in my opinion, even if we disagree with many of his ideas and decisions.

Khomeini was indeed quite a smart man. Not necessarily because of his ideology, but simply because of his political astuteness. But military he made huge faults. I don't think there is a military expert in the world who thinks Khomeini's refuse to end the war was quite smart.

 

[kollang]

realy nice discussion.im realy enjoying and learing from your comments
continue plz

 

[Surenas]

Stop spewing out horse.****. You forgot how after the war in 1988 Saddam re armed himself and created a monster army in 1991? to invade kuwait, just in 3 years time he reorganized his army with help of his gangster friends in Washington ! ? he had so much support from his masters in Washington that they could arm him in no-time. No doubt after a possible cease fire in 1982 that son of a b.itch would try to harass us again.

Saddam didn't armed himself after the war in 1988 so much. Most of the equipment he used during that war was left over from the Iran-Iraq war, which was heavily sponsored by the same Arabs Saddam later attacked. Thats why in 1988 Iran had lost most of his equipment, while Iraq had almost a surplus of equipment.

 

[kollang]

Saddam didn't armed himself after the war in 1988 so much. Most of the equipment he used during that war was left over from the Iran-Iraq war, which was heavily sponsored by the same Arabs Saddam later attacked. Thats why in 1988 Iran had lost most of his equipment, while Iraq had almost a surplus of equipment.

after Iran-Iraq war idiot saddam bought so many su-27,su-25,su-25 if it wasnt for his low IQ instead of attacking koweit,he could easily attack us.we had just 5 tomcat and no military industry.
by the way after attacking koweit,soveit decided to cancle the deal with saddam.

 

[Surenas]

after Iran-Iraq war idiot saddam bought so many su-27,su-25,su-25 if it wasnt for his low IQ instead of attacking koweit,he could easily attack us.we had just 5 tomcat and no military industry.
by the way after attacking koweit,soveit decided to cancle the deal with saddam.

But most weapon deals Saddam made to purchase those weapons were made during the Iran-Iraq war and not after the war.

 

[kollang]

But most weapon deals Saddam made to purchase those weapons were made during the Iran-Iraq war and not after the war.

yes some of them.
but the deal over more number if mig-29s and su-27s was made after Iran-Iraq war.and it was soooo dangerous deal for Iran

 

[Surenas]

yes some of them.
but the deal over more number if mig-29s and su-27s was made after Iran-Iraq war.and it was soooo dangerous deal for Iran

I'm not quite agreeing with that. I don't think even 1% of Saddam's minds was thinking about starting a new war again. Saddam was so scared after the war that he hold FBI investigators during interrogations that he was more afraid of Iran than of America

 

[IranZamin]

I'm not quite agreeing with that. I don't think even 1% of Saddam's minds was thinking about starting a new war again. Saddam was so scared after the war that he hold FBI investigators during interrogations that he was more afraid of Iran than of America

His hate for Iran was endless so he would do everything in his power to harm Iran again. This is definite. I dnt know why you insist otherwise

Three Whom God Should Not Have Created: Persians, Jews, and Flies (Arabic: ثلاثة كان على الله ان لا يخلقهم: الفرس، اليهود والذبا&#1576 is the name of a racist Iraqi government pamphlet widely published during the era of Saddam Hussein.

 

[Surenas]

For those who want to know more about the war, I have a extensive analyze of the war made by the American 'Center for Strategic and International Studies.' It's quite a good analyze. It's been studied by students of US military academies.

http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap01.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap02.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap03.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap04.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap05.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap06.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap07.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap08.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap09.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap10.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap11.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap12.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap13.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap14.pdf
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/9005lessonsiraniraqii-chap15.pdf

Part 1 to 3 is the introduction. The analyze of the war begins at part 4.

 

[kollang]

I'm not quite agreeing with that. I don't think even 1% of Saddam's minds was thinking about starting a new war again. Saddam was so scared after the war that he hold FBI investigators during interrogations that he was more afraid of Iran than of America

saddam could following two goals i think.
1-taking koweit and her oil well for geting more money.
2-attacking Iran for the second time.

Iran at 90s had a very weak army i must say.that time we had just 5 tomcats and 25 phantoms and tigers in service.
we had just 200 MBT tanks.while Iraq had about 2000 MBTs.
we had no ally.but he had both west and east as ally.
after 5 to 10 t years he could easily attack Iran and achieve his goals.
but hopefully west f****ed up his plans.

 

[Surenas]

His hate for Iran was endless so he would do everything in his power to harm Iran again. This is definite. I dnt know why you insist otherwise

Yes, he learned that hate against Persians from his uncle who raised him.

Of course he would do everything to undermine Iran's power in the Middle-East, but not by starting a new war.

 

[Arian]

I agree on this one. Eventually we would get independent, but I preferred the way Shah had in his minds.

The problem with the Shah was that he didn't know Iran well. He had been raised as a prince in Switzerland with best education and so much fun in there and since he hadn't struggled for power, but had been installed by foreigners after deposition of his father, he had no idea of how to rule over a country which is very much culturally different than Europe. He had plans to rule over Iran like Iran was Switzerland, but he didn't know that Iran was a very different country. He thought that if he had continued the process of industrialization and cultural revolution that had initiated with his father, ultimately he could've change Iran into a modern society like Europe and then he would've stood firmly against the foreign interference in Iran's affairs. But he wasn't really a wise guy to do that, the Shah was no Peter the great to form a strong mighty empire with the help of Europeans, instead, he made Iran dependent to their help and services. He relied too much on the USA and Europeans and he had sacrificed our own interests in the region to have their help sometimes.

Khomeini was a brave guy, a guy who believed he could do whatever he wants because his religious beliefs told him that his God would protect him. He didn't care if his decisions would create so many troubles, he thought God would help him to overcome. Besides that, Khomeini had a natural talent to rule as a leader if you ask me. He had a very well understanding of the things happening around him and in world politics, something that the Shah lacked, but again, he lacked formal academic education like the Shah and he was firmly committed to his own ideologies instead of what sciences like economics would suggest.

Khomeini was indeed quite a smart man. Not necessarily because of his ideology, but simply because of his political astuteness. But military he made huge faults. I don't think there is a military expert in the world who thinks Khomeini's refuse to end the war was quite smart.

Well, there was no guarantee that Saudi Arabia and other Arab states would honor their promises if we stopped the war. We had no levers to exert pressure on them if they decided to break their promises. Moreover, Saddam had already invaded some very strategic points of Iran like high hills close to the border that gave him military advantage over many areas in Iran. There was no guarantee that Saddam would leave those occupied lands after a ceasefire (and I'm sure he wouldn't have left them). What could we do if we stopped the war and they broke their promises? Could we go the UNSC when both Soviet Russia and the USA were against us? Could we initiate a new war to take back the lands? Then we would've been condemned as the aggressor. Actually, had we stopped the war, Saddam wouldn't need to initiate a new because he was the winner, unless he wanted to gain more lands. Khomeini's decision to continue the war was the most rational option available to us, it cost blood, but it guaranteed our national interests too.
We could discuss this further, but there were many reasons that justify Khomeini's decision if you ask me.