Invitation to attend 'Support Musharraf day'

[WAQAS119]

Webmaster is ok with it.

And this is Hypocrisy!!

 

[into the wild]

musharraf came to power because he was powerful, the pakistan army was listening to him, and remained in power because the politicians keep elected, so i think even imran khan has better chance than musharraf because he is in "actual" politics for a very long time..

 

[sparklingway]

CJP & other Judges of that time were Puppets .. We as a nation don't care about our constitution..

The then Chief of Justice of Pakistan, Justice Saeed uz Zaman Siddiqui refused to violate his oath of office and was forcibly removed and placed under house arrest. He did not provide respite to a dictator, it was Justice Irshad Hasan Khan who did so.

The names of Justice Siddiqui and Justice Mamoon Kazi, Justice Khalilur Rehman, Justice Nasir Aslam Zahid, Justice Wajihuddin Ahmad and Justice Kamal Mansur Alam are etched in history in honourable words.

 

[somebozo]

Day by day the mis conduct of Mushraff being revealed is making be disgusted of this man i once fondly supported. He gave open access to american officals who were involved in gun running business..i am sure under his tenture, black water trained a lot of terrorists.

 

[sparklingway]

Musharraf cannot peacefully run a campaign in Pakistan because of dadagiri, corruption and jhalat.

Anyways, best of luck to you guys. Probably one of the best decent political party currently.

Since, the discussion on sticky-ness and partisanship is closed, I've got the opportunity to question about these comments.

The main reason why i sticked it was only because of my personal opinion that Musharraf needs to be supported for what he is trying to do..and that is to become a civilian and run for the office again. It was a personally a good option to support him...otherwise 100 rupees per vote walay will be in power once again.

Long gone the days of Rs. 100. The rate is much higher now.

Since you stated that he has the best new party (in the other thread) please answer my following queries:-

1. Does the APML support neo-liberalism like the way Musharraf's previous era embraced it (although I doubt Musharraf can differentiate even between monetary and fiscal policies)?

2. What is their position on land re-distribution? What is the party's view on benami ownership and absentee landlordism? On state land distribution amongst the elite?

3. What is APML's position on progressive economic tax or will they impose a flat slab like Shaukat Aziz wanted to after they had already eliminated the wealth tax?

4. Is the APML protectionist or pro- free trade?

5. Will the APML support unionization or ban trade unions like the previous dictator did? (which resulted in a 6% decrease in real wages)

6. Is the APML going to support a completely secular constituion or is it okay with the status quo?

7. Does the APML support a devolution or power or centralization?

8. Will the APML embrace foreign investment in agriculture and corporate farming or embrace the welfare of the peasants? (since land grabs were alloted to arabs during the previous dictator's era and continue even now)

9. Will the APML embrace consumer financing as the source of "development"?

10. Will the APML sell more land like Bundal and Budoo island to foreign real estate "developers"? (read destroyers)

Or just answer this question, does the APML lean to the left, right, centre of left, centre of right or what?

As I'm sure, nobody has an answer to even the last question.

It's just a one-man party, focused on personalities just like all other parties in Pakistan. But that is not surprising since it is a product of our society where everything is focused on personalities and relies on kinship and blood ties.

You cannot possibly in this world move from 100 rupee, biradiri and chacha-mama votes to a progressive system of governance. Evolutionary steps are small and the usual knee-jerk reaction that emanates because of the frustration with the system of governance gives rise to these hypocritical statements and hopes of oxymoronic "benevolent dictators" and one-man-fix-it-all schemes. (although I must point out that rural constituencies have a far higher swing votes than urban areas where traders firmly hold onto one group or another).

Nobody ever has, ever can or ever will possibly change a country's socio-politico inclinations on his own. It takes decades and it requires people's will. The frustration visible amongst the urban upper middle class always makes me glad since we benefit from this exploitative state structure through the fact that we are part of the state apparatus but by merely suggesting that we don't own millions of acres of lands, we chant slogans of being middle class and representative of the state, which we are not.

There is no reason to state the party as some new beacon of light. It's a man who has spent 9 years in the premier office (through power of the barrel and tanks) and still wants to come back to power. The hunger for power therefore never dies.

And please no look-at-others arguments and avoid fallacies especially ones like Reductio ad Zardarium.

PS : Me showing open defiance. Webby, please don't bump me

 

[EagleEyes]

Asking such questions is a bit premature right now understanding that the party is newly formed. No average person would have answers to these questions. Only the parties representatives would be able to answer these questions. IMO, these questions are not of utmost importance right now.

What is utmost importance is the party's representatives and its goals. Here is where APML with no doubt will emerge as a major force. While the main parties currently rely on representatives (of the people) with fake degrees, it is unlikely that such representatives will form the APML. From my understanding APML will form of highly educated professionals who will fill-in their specialized roles.

The fact that the economy, military and the country had prosper under Musharraf compare to the current corrupted regime is what our hopes are based on. There is no need for the statistical data on the current economy. We all know how that is going. Musharraf in my opinion will change that.

Musharraf needs to be given another chance. A much better option than Taliban sympathizers and other corrupted political parties.

 

[sparklingway]

Asking such questions is a bit premature right now understanding that the party is newly formed. No average person would have answers to these questions. Only the parties representatives would be able to answer these questions. IMO, these questions are not of utmost importance right now.

A party is formed on some principles and some ideology. If an ideology, economic model and structure of governance are not important then what is?

What is utmost importance is the party's representatives and its goals.

Lack of ideology mean no goals.

We-will-create-a-better-Pakistan is no goal.

Here is where APML with no doubt will emerge as a major force.

I will laugh even in my sleep.

While the main parties currently rely on representatives (of the people) with fake degrees, it is unlikely that such representatives will form the APML. From my understanding APML will form of highly educated professionals who will fill-in their specialized roles.

I hoped you'll not use the extension arguments but since you assume that "highly educated professionals" will be the party cadre, I have to disappoint you by telling you that most local leaders are the lota categories and I know the Lahore and Rawalpindi chapter guys who are no more than ordinary thugs.

And enough with this "highly educated professionals" fascination and fantasies. Only 4% people of this country hold a degree beyond intermediate and even suggesting that a parliament ought to be educated (which is an evolutionary process), our state policies have always been crafted by "educated" people, most with degrees from the world's best universities (foreign policies, trade policies, industrial policies, managerial posts and even the defence policy since general do a degree from an institute that has been well crafted). Please read this post as a extension of my argument about "educated" ones being the responsible for policies (and problems) already.

I'll choose illiterate peasants over scum of this earth "educated" elites and technocrat-consultant leeches any day of my life.

The fact that the economy, military and the country had prosper under Musharraf compare to the current corrupted regime is what our hopes are based on. There is no need for the statistical data on the current economy. We all know how that is going. Musharraf in my opinion will change that.

Short term summarizations avoiding wider context. I cannot disagree more on the "performance" and what defines "prosperity". The economy prospered under Zia as well. Well you give Ayub the credit for the green revolution or world bodies that did it? I guess I don't have to make this point so I'll move on.

"We all know" is a highly flawed argument. I'm not willing to enter a statistical battle.

Musharraf needs to be given another chance. A much better option than Taliban sympathizers and other corrupted political parties.

Nine years is more than enough. Enjoy your tea, biscuits and music.

 

[sur]

Webmaster, Thanks for removing stickiness...
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Prosperity under Musharaf was mostly fake... Rise in property prices caused by flow of money from ex-pats post-911-insecurity does NOT constitute prosperity... neither do balooned-up stock-exchange rates/indices.... nor do the credit-based influx of motor-vehicles...

If there was "REAL" prosperity under Musharaf we would see that lasting after he was gone... But that's NOT the case.

& as u mentioned present corrupt govt., well, it was result of NRO, a gift from Musharaf.

During 8 or so years of his king-ship he could have easily developed few dams for us. I would consider that a real prosperity.

 

[Awesome]

I agree that votings is a numbers game and in 2008 elections, President Musharraf's name got PML-Q 53 seats in the National Assembly and these seats were from all over Pakistan.

On the other hand Nawaz league got 5 seats from NWFP and rest of the seats were from Punjab.

President Musharraf's participation in politics will only benefit Pakistan because it will give another option to the people of Pakistan and will add pressure on ohters to actually do some work.

I assure you that he is going to return and it is a matter of when and not if.

Those seats were taken by PML-Q and they are still a powerful party in Pakistan without Musharraf, I think they would've done better without Musharraf.

I have no issues with seeing Musharraf progress. His secular and pro-freedom policies were good. But I don't see him coming, since he has also made a name for himself by breaking all the good that he does when his own neck is on the line - we all remember the ban on the media, the emergency rule, etc.

 

[sparklingway]

There is no point in discussing the economic legacy, the rise in inequality and the theoretical short-comings of neo-liberalism itself.

 

[Awesome]

Spark, for the answer to most of the questions you've asked, you only need to look at the time when he had absolute power.

He couldn't move an inch on the land distribution since he had tied himself up with feudal lords, any such redistribution on the national level would affect his allies too.

I am however supportive of having a set education criteria for participation in the general elections. Fake degrees aside, it ensures (or will ensure) that a person has gone through a process of earning up their position in public office. Even if the awaam is too illiterate to make the distinction, a filtration process will reduce the impact of voting for your feudal lord mai **** and instead voting for someone who has earned college credit and had an exposure to the various subject matters that he/she will be exposed to in public office.

Its still democratic, only process oriented democratic.

 

[blain2]

Asim,

All pronouncements about his policies aside, Musharraf stands as good a chance as any of the others to run the country.

The track record of all the jokers in the running is in front of us. As they say "Unees bees ka faraq hai". For the supporters of Musharraf, he is the bees. Others disagree. Although I am personally fine with Musharraf deciding to stay out, I won't be convinced that he is the worst that has happened to Pakistan as some would lead one to believe.

As far as Sparks questions, just the other day I picked up the PPP manifesto. There is a checkmark on everything that Spark is raising...essentially "Haan ji hum bhi yeh kartain hain" type bakvaas. In Pakistan, the easiest thing to spin is the "Ideology". There is a an ideology for each of the parties. Unfortunately the only thing missing is the national ideology.

Land reform and what not dare not come up because across party lines, this is the one thing in common that these folks share, their desire to perpetuate their holdings. The only exception to this case are parties like ANP and MQM but they do not have a national footprint so even if their stance for land reforms (among other things) is laudable, it cannot move things. Musharraf has only these folks to rely upon which makes it all the harder for him to push things through. I guess I would agree that if he was not able to sort these folks out when he had the khaki on, there is little chance that the fundamental problem with land reform and feudalism will end in Pakistan.

 

[sparklingway]

He couldn't move an inch on the land distribution since he had tied himself up with feudal lords, any such redistribution on the national level would affect his allies too.

Nobody can since that requires violating a court judgement meaning the dissolution of the Federal Shariat Court. Red the worst judgement in our history PLD 1990 SC 99 for reference.

I am however supportive of having a set education criteria for participation in the general elections. Fake degrees aside, it ensures (or will ensure) that a person has gone through a process of earning up their position in public office. Even if the awaam is too illiterate to make the distinction, a filtration process will reduce the impact of voting for your feudal lord mai **** and instead voting for someone who has earned college credit and had an exposure to the various subject matters that he/she will be exposed to in public office.

Why not make it a limited franchise, say like only the landed and professional male elite has the right to vote, just like 1750s Europe?

Disgusting suggestion.

Its still democratic, only process oriented democratic.

Inherently contradicting. I personally want to set people with such elitist mentality on fire. I'd hate it to do it to you.

Land reform and what not dare not come up because across party lines, this is the one thing in common that these folks share, their desire to perpetuate their holdings. The only exception to this case are parties like ANP and MQM but they do not have a national footprint so even if there stance for land reforms (among other things), is laudable, it cannot move things. Musharraf has only these folks to rely upon which makes it all the harder for him to push things through. I guess I would agree that if he was not able to sort these folks out when he had the khaki on, there is little chance that the fundamental problem with land reform and feudalism will end in Pakistan.

Since this argument is very common and there's an inherent lack of historical study as to what happened to the land reforms, the "educated" elite being all too happy to use feudalism-this-feudalism-that, fails to mention, understand or comprehend the nature of the land reforms.

Please read my post on how the Shariat courts threw it out and declared land reforms as illegal. Shocking news to most of you, I guess. Please read this and the post just above the linked one for a view on feudalism courtesy my friend Umair Javed.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/66107-comment-republic-fear.html#post1005578

The ceiling imposed was not the one that was promised (50 acre non-irrigated as opposed to the applied 100 acres), but it was at least done (even if half hearted and lacking of any institutional vigor, it had a legal basis and could be used aggressively by any regime).

If you want to study the complete details of the case, the "Islamic" law used and legal study on possible solution, I'll be glad to help you.

As far as Sparks questions, just the other day I picked up the PPP manifesto. There is a checkmark on everything that Spark is raising...essentially "Haan ji hum bhi yeh kartain hain" type bakvaas. In Pakistan, the easiest thing to spin is the "Ideology". There is a an ideology for each of the parties. Unfortunately the only thing missing is the national ideology.

The extension argument. I asked about APML not about any other party. The lack of any coherent ideology is the product of an anti-intellectual society. The "educated" elite itself is confused between Democracy or Khilafat.

The visible lack of any coherent arguments extends to the fact that we consider one man to be fix-it-all.

 

[Hasnain2009]

Since, the discussion on sticky-ness and partisanship is closed, I've got the opportunity to question about these comments.



Long gone the days of Rs. 100. The rate is much higher now.

Since you stated that he has the best new party (in the other thread) please answer my following queries:-

1. Does the APML support neo-liberalism like the way Musharraf's previous era embraced it (although I doubt Musharraf can differentiate even between monetary and fiscal policies)?

2. What is their position on land re-distribution? What is the party's view on benami ownership and absentee landlordism? On state land distribution amongst the elite?

3. What is APML's position on progressive economic tax or will they impose a flat slab like Shaukat Aziz wanted to after they had already eliminated the wealth tax?

4. Is the APML protectionist or pro- free trade?

5. Will the APML support unionization or ban trade unions like the previous dictator did? (which resulted in a 6% decrease in real wages)

6. Is the APML going to support a completely secular constituion or is it okay with the status quo?

7. Does the APML support a devolution or power or centralization?

8. Will the APML embrace foreign investment in agriculture and corporate farming or embrace the welfare of the peasants? (since land grabs were alloted to arabs during the previous dictator's era and continue even now)

9. Will the APML embrace consumer financing as the source of "development"?

10. Will the APML sell more land like Bundal and Budoo island to foreign real estate "developers"? (read destroyers)

Or just answer this question, does the APML lean to the left, right, centre of left, centre of right or what?

As I'm sure, nobody has an answer to even the last question.

It's just a one-man party, focused on personalities just like all other parties in Pakistan. But that is not surprising since it is a product of our society where everything is focused on personalities and relies on kinship and blood ties.

You cannot possibly in this world move from 100 rupee, biradiri and chacha-mama votes to a progressive system of governance. Evolutionary steps are small and the usual knee-jerk reaction that emanates because of the frustration with the system of governance gives rise to these hypocritical statements and hopes of oxymoronic "benevolent dictators" and one-man-fix-it-all schemes. (although I must point out that rural constituencies have a far higher swing votes than urban areas where traders firmly hold onto one group or another).

Nobody ever has, ever can or ever will possibly change a country's socio-politico inclinations on his own. It takes decades and it requires people's will. The frustration visible amongst the urban upper middle class always makes me glad since we benefit from this exploitative state structure through the fact that we are part of the state apparatus but by merely suggesting that we don't own millions of acres of lands, we chant slogans of being middle class and representative of the state, which we are not.

There is no reason to state the party as some new beacon of light. It's a man who has spent 9 years in the premier office (through power of the barrel and tanks) and still wants to come back to power. The hunger for power therefore never dies.

And please no look-at-others arguments and avoid fallacies especially ones like Reductio ad Zardarium.

PS : Me showing open defiance. Webby, please don't bump me

wow...nice discussion, can u tell me who is the best choice for next Prime Minister/President?

Dont say Imran Khan/Mustafa Kamal, coz u know they cant get enough votes from all part of countries, plz can u answer me in only one line, who's the best option for us in current position?

*Hint*: If u dont have money to get meal from 7-star hotel, then u can eat from some cheap hotel, rather eating nothing.

 

[Condor]

There is no point in discussing the economic legacy, the rise in inequality and the theoretical short-comings of neo-liberalism itself.

Sparky - I can resonate with the direction you're headed for
but find the road you take to arrive rather foggy.

I think you should be addressing Governance and its modalities
that will lead you there.

On second thought you should have remained the Think Tank
you were, Mod is rather distracting for you.

Sprinkle a little sparkle.