Interview with new SSM Prof.Dr. İsmail Demir @ Eurosatory 2014

[LegionnairE]

what a bunch of fools

Do you know how much we did pay for F35's R&D?
100 million dollars, it was a fvcking joke, you can't develop F35's canopy with that money.

We'll spend BILLIONS with the letter "B" for TFX R&D, and if we do it now Turkish Air Force won't gain anything from it.

If instead we concentrate on rising the local production ratio of F35 we can incerase the workload of Turkish defence industry significantly. Israel isn't a part of the JSF program but even THEY are receiving some of the workload.

But we don't WHY? because we've got fools who can't see in front of their noses let alone having a vision beyond 2023. I'm not saying we shouldn't develop a national fighter, all I'm saying is that it's a bad fvcking time for it. We've got very little to gain and those billions can be better spent developing a civilian airliner jet.

I don't have quiete knowledge about off-set agreement but i know we are buying around 100 and total aircraft to be produced is around 2000. If we are goingto sell parts for 2000 aircraft it might be possible to cover for 100 aircrafts.

The thing leggy saying is we should double our number to 200 and produce more stuff sell (F-135 engine for example).

US armed forces alone are buying around 2800 planes, the original plan was to buy 3000 but the price went higher than expected. You could see the entire manifest of the parts that are being produced in Turkey in the relevant thread, but somehow nobody bothers to search the forum these days.


Look the point is, 2023 is a very short vision. If we've been planning 50 years ahead we wouldn't be making these stupid mistakes. Yes I think launching TFX project right now is a mistake.

 

[T-123456]

You are talking non-sense mate. Do you know how much 200 of F-35 would cost? It would probably cost 60-70 billion dollars. Let alone the maintenance, training, ... costs which is usually 2-3 times of the price of the jets alone. what would be the total revenue of Turkey from the whole project? Is the revenue of Turkey 200 billion dollars from F-35 project?!!!

We will have a production line,most parts produced in Turkiye.

 

[era_shield]

what a bunch of fools

We'll spend BILLIONS with the letter "B" for TFX R&D, and if we do it now Turkish Air Force won't gain anything from it.

We won't gain anything from designing and building our own jet?! Are you high? What we'll gain is our own jet and, more importantly, the scientific, industrial and engineering capability to design jets. You don't seem to be able to get it through your thick skull that Turkey has been building other people's designs for decades and that road is a dead end. Saying that we should continue doing the same for the F-35 isn't "visionary", it's myopic and foolish.

In the MPT-76 thread you keep complaining that the MPT-76 is just a clone, about and how Turkish industry needs more innovation and to design its own products. Well, that's exactly what the TF-X project is about. (By the way, the MPT-76 is not a clone of anything. So many people have corrected you about that, even an article in Jane's explained it - but it still hasn't got through your thick skull).

Even if the F35 cost absolutely nothing - 100% free - the smart long-term thing to do would still be to start R&D for our own air-superiority jet immediately. The earlier we start, the quicker that industrial/scientific/engineering capability is developed, the quicker we can catch up to US/China/Russia/France etc, and the quicker all those scientific/industrial/engineering improvements start trickling down to benefit the rest of the economy.

By the way, about Turkey's offset % for the F35 - first you said it's "over 100%", now you're saying it's "over 50%". How about you stop making up numbers and instead link to us to a reliable source? Or better yet - stop pontificating about topics you don't understand.

 

[xxxKULxxx]

Building T/F-X or not... In both conditions we will build parts for F-35s... No loss... This will not change according to T/F-X...

The thing legi says is what we did about F-16 since 1980s... We did that for 35 years... We must built T/F-X... No way... If we would list advantages of T/F-X program that list would be a long list and every matter of that list would be so important...

Also we need permision of US even for changing a screw on F-35...

Discussing this issue is just a BS... Rather then discussing this BS we should discuss about "Which specs T/F-X should have?" etc...

And i have no doubt that our guys will built a perfect 5th gen. fighter jet... We already have most of the systems for that fighter jet... I really trust our guys, they will just do it and we will see...

 

[-SINAN-]

 

[xenon54 out]

Legi is right, there is no point in spending billions just to edevelop another Multirole fighter when we get F-35, they should go for Air superiority fighters instead, we lack in this field, US wouldnt wouldnt sell F-22 to us anyway so it would make more sense if you ask me.

 

[LegionnairE]

Guys, I think Ottoman-Turk is back again

In the MPT-76 thread you keep complaining that the MPT-76 is just a clone, about and how Turkish industry needs more innovation and to design its own products. Well, that's exactly what the TF-X project is about. (By the way, the MPT-76 is not a clone of anything. So many people have corrected you about that, even an article in Jane's explained it - but it still hasn't got through your thick skull).

You can buy an AR10 upper receiver from colt or x company and put it together with "MPT76" lower receiver then go **** yourself

The thing legi says is what we did about F-16 since 1980s... We did that for 35 years... We must built T/F-X... No way... If we would list advantages of T/F-X program that list would be a long list and every matter of that list would be so important...

If you've read my post, I've stated that it's a bad time for that and there are no good engine options. Best engine option is the PW F135 and it's already on F35.

Indeed we should develop our own fighter but if it's going to be like rafale there's no point. Development of rafale was a infeasible project that was accepted solely to satisfy french national pride, it was a mistake and so is TFX

Instead we can allocate resources to develop a civilian narrow body jet airliner such as B737 and our country could earn MUCH more. Only county that's going to buy TFX is Azerbaijan and maybe some gulf states but the civilian airliner can be sold even American airline companies. I think there's an opportunity here.

Also we need permision of US even for changing a screw on F-35...

We don't have anything superior to put on F35 except for the SOM and it's already been integrated.

 

[Oublious]

You need a infrastructure and this is a good begin.

 

[xxxKULxxx]

If you've read my post, I've stated that it's a bad time for that and there are no good engine options. Best engine option is the PW F135 and it's already on F35.

Indeed we should develop our own fighter but if it's going to be like rafale there's no point. Development of rafale was a infeasible project that was accepted solely to satisfy french national pride, it was a mistake and so is TFX

Instead we can allocate resources to develop a civilian narrow body jet airliner such as B737 and our country could earn MUCH more. Only county that's going to buy TFX is Azerbaijan and maybe some gulf states but the civilian airliner can be sold even American airline companies. I think there's an opportunity here.
We don't have anything superior to put on F35 except for the SOM and it's already been integrated.

If we don't start T/F-X program today we will have to wait another 50 years for it...
We don't have only SOM-J but also we have things like NEB, HGK, KGK and we will have AA missiles too and much more things...
Also indigenous engine will replace foreign one by the time just like ALTAY...

Legi those guys are not our allies... You know North Cyprus issue so why you insist on this ?..

BTW T/F-X doesn't prevent civilian airliner project... We will do that too...

Yapmayın abi.. Paranın a.q, para sorun değil, önemli olan güvenliğimiz... Sen milyar dolarları ver, Kıbrıs'ta bizim milleti katletsinler buna karşı harekat düzenle gelsin a.q amerikası hem milyar dolarları almış olsun hem de bizim uçakları kaldırılamayacak hale getirsin... Biz bu F-16'ları götü boklu teröristler için almadık ki... Şimdi ben ne anladım bu işten ?.. Uçaklara bas milyar dolarları eğitim, tatbikat ve teröriste bomba yağdırma dışında bi boka yaramasın... Biz de sanalım ki elimizde bi ton F-16 var... Bırak yaramamasını, bilseydik böyle olacak yerli pırpırlı savaş uçağı bile daha iyi olurdu... Ben napayım hayati zamanlarda uçuramayacağım F-35'i... F-22 verseler bile bi boka yaramaz... Anca yunana hava atarız ama yunanı vurmaya kalksak izin vermezler.... Asıl maddi zarar da orada... Milyar dolarları ver abd'nin 1 dakkada alacağı kararla uçaklar uçamaz hale gelsin... Nerde o zaman milyar dolarlar ?.. Topu topu 1 savaş yaptık 1 savaşta bile hemen ambargoyu koydular... O zaman anladık ki bizim savaş uçağımız falan yokmuş... Anladık ki alırken verdiğimiz paralar, işletirken verdiğimiz paralar yok modernizeymiş zartmış zurtmuş bütün paralar boşunaymış... Savunmasız kalmamız da cabası... Yok abi... Yapacaz hem de kralını... İyi uçak yapamayacağımızı düşünüyosanız o zaman da bi sonraki uçak çok iyi olur veya modifikasyonlarla çok daha iyi hale getirilir mevcut uçak... Öyle düşünün... Bin kat daha iyidir... Ne bin katı, kıyaslanmayacak derecede iyidir...


Ha şu var... yolcu uçağı için ortaklık falan bişeler yapılır... Hiç sorun değil ama konu güvenliğimiz olunca ASLA...

 

[LegionnairE]

@xxxKULxxx
Stop being so scared.

It's on everybody's mouth that "Erdogan is working", people are repeating this like doctor frankenstein repeating "it's alive!"
Like it's some miracle Doing isn't everything, thinking and planning is just as important.

I hear you're concerned about "National security" need I remind you that SSİK couldn't decide on high altitude air defence system for quite a few years? Do you realize that a reliable air & ballistical missile defence network is far more important to our national defence than fighter jets?

We already outgun any neighbor with the current inventory, we'll be capable of posing a greater threat to Russia and Israel even. But need I show you what's been happening in Lice? I don't want to pull this to politics but obviously we have a weak government that's been allowing kurdish seperatists and foreign countries to reach their goals. Greeks drilling in Cyprus for example. We had the military means to dictate Cyprus anything but the AKP government decided not to, for the reasons I well know but don't want to get into.

So don't come to me with "we'll have to use it against US, they mustn't have source codes bla bla" nonesense. For we haven't made a single military incursion into Syria for years of civil war or we haven't sunk a single israeli boat in retaliation of Mavi Marmara and we've prayed for US soldiers' safety who put bags on our soldiers heads. We simply don't have a leadership who has the balls to go against US interests so we won't have to.

And a little correction here
By the time of Cyprus we didn't have F16s we've had F5s and the US didn't magically disable our planes they just cut off the logistical supply chain, we started running out of spare parts and experiencing troubles.

The myth that US can disable our jets because they have the source codes is an urban legend. There's no such link between F16s or F35s and America, US already gave us the source codes of F16s and we're screwing with them however we god damn please.

 

[Hakan]

@LegionnairE

So Basically you are saying that we should concentrate on the F 35 program because we will be aligned with america for the future (short to medium term) anyway so why waste valuable money and resources on the TF-X project that will most likely not even be that successful like the rafael when we could use the same amount of cash and get an airplane that we know is good and an airplane which we will be producing many essential components for. Either way we will be dependent on foreign parts so might as well be dependent with a reliable airplane (F-35) until our aviation industry matures enough to build a 100% indigenous jet fighter(15-20 years from now maybe).

So how does it mature? From what I understand your are saying that it will mature by gaining experience from F-35 and developing a domestic jet airliner which we can actually use (THY) and sell.

In the MPT-76 thread you keep complaining that the MPT-76 is just a clone, about and how Turkish industry needs more innovation and to design its own products.

The point is that you spend millions of tax payer dollars on a weapon that doesn't even look unique. Does it get the job done? So far it looks like it does but think of how long we will be using the MPT-76. Probably for another 2 decades at least. Do you know what Turkey will be in 2 decades? Turkey will be among the world's largest economies, our influence will be large and we will be supplying other nations with alot of military gear and it is essential that this gear looks unique because would it show our influence to other governments and to people around the world. What would the average joe think if he saw azerbaijan, jordan, central asian states, georgia etc. using the MPT-76? He would think that they are using the M16 and Turkey will not even cross his mind. Now if we had a unique looking design that could be associated with Turkey just how the Ak is associated with Russia and just how the Tavor is associated with Israel then we would have had a very successful domestic Battle Rifle.

Im not saying Turkey doesn't produce anything unique im just saying that the MPT-76 wasn't designed with Turkey's future in mind.

 

[LegionnairE]

@Kaan, you don't see the whole picture

Most important thing here is the requirements of TURAF because we don't have such a big market. Azerbaijan will not buy more than 100 and we can't buy more than 200, these are extremely optimistic estimates. And the fact is we're going to be stuck with two multi-role fighters. We will be like Greece basically.

In the next few years we may not be able to develop a modern turbojet engine but even so, better engine options such as PW F119 may become available, allowing us to build a long range air superiority fighter.

Why are you guys struggling to get it? having two multi-role fighters is fucking retarded.
US is replacing 3 planes with a single plane; F35 even 4 actually,they won't produce anymore F22s even they can't afford to buy a little of everything. So can't we

 

[Azeri440]

@Kaan, you don't see the whole picture

Most important thing here is the requirements of TURAF because we don't have such a big market. Azerbaijan will not buy more than 100 and we can't buy more than 200, these are extremely optimistic estimates. And the fact is we're going to be stuck with two multi-role fighters. We will be like Greece basically.

In the next few years we may not be able to develop a modern turbojet engine but even so, better engine options such as PW F119 may become available, allowing us to build a long range air superiority fighter.

Why are you guys struggling to get it? having two multi-role fighters is fucking retarded.
US is replacing 3 planes with a single plane; F35 even 4 actually,they won't produce anymore F22s even they can't afford to buy a little of everything. So can't we

I wish we could afford 100 fighters.............

 

[LegionnairE]

I wish we could afford 100 fighters.............

We can't afford 200 of TFX either We already have 200 F16s and 100 F35s on their way.
As I've said those were extremely optimistic estimates.

I'm curious who's going to buy TFX
no matter how much I think it through it doesn't seem like a feasible project at this point

 

[Hakan]

@Kaan, you don't see the whole picture

Most important thing here is the requirements of TURAF because we don't have such a big market. Azerbaijan will not buy more than 100 and we can't buy more than 200, these are extremely optimistic estimates. And the fact is we're going to be stuck with two multi-role fighters. We will be like Greece basically.

In the next few years we may not be able to develop a modern turbojet engine but even so, better engine options such as PW F119 may become available, allowing us to build a long range air superiority fighter.

Why are you guys struggling to get it? having two multi-role fighters is fucking retarded.
US is replacing 3 planes with a single plane; F35 even 4 actually,they won't produce anymore F22s even they can't afford to buy a little of everything. So can't we

My bad i left that out.

I had the same idea.