Interesting articles from SP aviation on AWACS, LUH, 5th gen fighters...

[sancho]

More here:

SP's Aviation April 2012 e-Magazine - SP's Aviation



I find the following article interesting, because it makes clear why we are behind our opponents in procuring new AWACS aircrafts:

Cost is an issue of course, but long range surveillance is one of the tactically most important capabilities India must have! Limiting this by hoping on indigenous developments, is a very risky game we play wrt the security of our nation.
One reason why I don't understand why we wasting money on amphibious capabilities or an N-LCA / AMCA developments, when there is a lack of money for way more important procurements like AWACS or Tanker aircrafts.
MoD really needs to look at how to prioritise the need of the country and if necessary put procurements of IN on hold and allocate the fund to more important procurements of IAF (and the otherway around as well). Similarly, why always these limited number procurements and follow on orders later? Why only 3 x EMB DRDO AWACS + 3 as options? We need these aircrafts badly, so push the development and procurement with a firm deal from the start, or buy more foreign stuff and add these indigenous AWACS later only besides them.

The hunt for indigenous arms and techs should never effect the security of our nation!

 

[Kinetic]

India buying so many foreign systems. As for Phalcon we bought 3+2 but still these foreign arms dealer's agents are not happy. How much time it took and technology helps Israel got from US to develop Phalcon? These agents wants India totally scrap indigenous R&D. Out of all these radars he only remember Airavat accident (which was due to aircraft failure not radar) and MMR. What about all other different kind of radars developed and inducted?

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

India buying so many foreign systems. As for Phalcon we bought 3+2 but still these foreign arms dealer's agents are not happy. How much time it took and technology helps Israel got from US to develop Phalcon? These agents wants India totally scrap indigenous R&D. Out of all these radars he only remember Airavat accident (which was due to aircraft failure not radar) and MMR. What about all other different kind of radars developed and inducted?

kinetic,bro superlike these jerks only highlights DRDO's failure like airravat but never say anything about l-star,swordfish,rajendra,rohini,BFSR etc..the list goes on for success.for how long will we keep on importing foreign systems at exorbitantly high price??? national security is a cause of concern,but that doesnt mean we will sacrifice our indigeneous R&D.we are not facing a war like situation now & it is the ideal time for our R&D..also,this artical seems old (written in may 2009) and by next year(2013) we will have oprational AEWC&S

 

[acetophenol]

kinetic,bro superlike these jerks only highlights DRDO's failure like airravat but never say anything about l-star,swordfish,rajendra,rohini,BFSR etc..the list goes on for success.for how long will we keep on importing foreign systems at exorbitantly high price??? national security is a cause of concern,but that doesnt mean we will sacrifice our indigeneous R&D.we are not facing a war like situation now & it is the ideal time for our R&D..also,this artical seems old (written in may 2009) and by next year(2013) we will have oprational AEWC&S

the airaavat was a failure only bcoz of the unavailability of a suitable platform.

 

[GORKHALI]

More here:

SP's Aviation April 2012 e-Magazine - SP's Aviation



I find the following article interesting, because it makes clear why we are behind our opponents in procuring new AWACS aircrafts:

Cost is an issue of course, but long range surveillance is one of the tactically most important capabilities India must have! Limiting this by hoping on indigenous developments, is a very risky game we play wrt the security of our nation.
One reason why I don't understand why we wasting money on amphibious capabilities or an N-LCA / AMCA developments, when there is a lack of money for way more important procurements like AWACS or Tanker aircrafts.
MoD really needs to look at how to prioritise the need of the country and if necessary put procurements of IN on hold and allocate the fund to more important procurements of IAF (and the otherway around as well). Similarly, why always these limited number procurements and follow on orders later? Why only 3 x EMB DRDO AWACS + 3 as options? We need these aircrafts badly, so push the development and procurement with a firm deal from the start, or buy more foreign stuff and add these indigenous AWACS later only besides them.

The hunt for indigenous arms and techs should never effect the security of our nation!

Sancho ji,if a child take long time to start walking doesn't mean we ampute his/her limbs and put Jaipuria,rather we wait and encourage to stand him/her on own..

 

[sancho]

India buying so many foreign systems. As for Phalcon we bought 3+2 but still these foreign arms dealer's agents are not happy.

You missed my point! I am not talking about if DRDO will be able to provide the AWACS, but about MoD leaving Indias defence in disadvantage, by waiting for it! We clearly lack behind in this field and MoD should have take the additional order long ago, delinked from DRDO AWACS development progress.
DRDO AWACS will be less capable and just an addition to the Phalcon AWACS anyway, but currently we don't even have a minimum number of aircrafts in this field (inducted 3, afaik one of them is in Israel again and just 2 are on order). Even DRDO AWACS is just ordered in low numbers so far, which is not enough to cover such a large border area with up to date opponents.

Sancho ji,if a child take long time to start walking doesn't mean we ampute his/her limbs and put Jaipuria,rather we wait and encourage to stand him/her on own..

See above, it's not the delay, but that MoD is reacting so unwise an making India so dependent in this critical field.

 

[sancho]

national security is a cause of concern,but that doesnt mean we will sacrifice our indigeneous R&D.we are not facing a war like situation now

Sorry, but that's naive! Are you suggesting to wait till a war starts and then run around to get the useful weapons and techs? When a war starts tomorrow and they usually won't be announced a month ago, we are in a clear disadvantage currently because we can't provide full range surveillance to our border areas. PAF has better AWACS support than we have currently!
Nobody says that indigenous R&D is not needed, but we also can't wait for it and have to place the security of the nation in first place!

 

[Hulk]

You missed my point! I am not talking about if DRDO will be able to provide the AWACS, but about MoD leaving Indias defence in disadvantage, by waiting for it! We clearly lack behind in this field and MoD should have take the additional order long ago, delinked from DRDO AWACS development progress.
DRDO AWACS will be less capable and just an addition to the Phalcon AWACS anyway, but currently we don't even have a minimum number of aircrafts in this field (inducted 3, afaik one of them is in Israel again and just 2 are on order). Even DRDO AWACS is just ordered in low numbers so far, which is not enough to cover such a large border area with up to date opponents.



See above, it's not the delay, but that MoD is reacting so unwise an making India so dependent in this critical field.

I agree with Sancho, something still under development cannot be considered for filling future requirement. My antony is a failure here, he has taken extreme position to support DRDO. A extreme position is never good.

 

[Abingdonboy]

We need to chill IMO the situation is well under control. The IAF currently operates 3 PHALCONs which is the most advanced AWACS on the face of the planet and currently the IAF undergoing a steep learning curve and developing their tactics and doctrine for operating such craft. Additionally the effort by the DRDO to devlop their own AWACS is producing invaluable knowledge that wil pay dividens in the future, this initial effort was always going to be a long hard slog. Additionally it has been stated the IAF is more than likely to go for at least 7 PHALCONs and 14 DRDO AWACS not to mention fixed wing AWACS IN is to get.


Not to mention the AWACS of the PAF and PLAAF are nowhere near the level of the PHALCON (even the DRDO AWACs).


Fair play to the author, as a retd AF officer he's trying to push these deals along.

 

[punjabimunda]

guys wasnt the awacs system tested in brazil on embrear aircraft a drdo awacs system? want it completely tested??? what is the progress on that?

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

Sorry, but that's naive! Are you suggesting to wait till a war starts and then run around to get the useful weapons and techs? When a war starts tomorrow and they usually won't be announced a month ago, we are in a clear disadvantage currently because we can't provide full range surveillance to our border areas. PAF has better AWACS support than we have currently!
Nobody says that indigenous R&D is not needed, but we also can't wait for it and have to place the security of the nation in first place!

its not so..but we are facing warlike situations with pakistan since 1947 and with china since 1962 & and hopefully we will face them in the comming decades...does that mean we will keep on importing our weapon systems ever after!!! now the political condition is good in asia,there is a democratic govt in pak,US presence in AF,china or pak will not go out for a war with india in a few years hence.so,its the ideal time to continue our R&D in collaboration with foreign firms to get their technical advice.. if we want superpower status,the first thing we should posses are the critical defence technologies and self sufficiency in weapon production!!!

 

[sancho]

We need to chill IMO the situation is well under control. The IAF currently operates 3 PHALCONs which is the most advanced AWACS on the face of the planet

It doesn't matter how advanced they are, unless we don't have to numbers to provide full coverage of the border areas and that is not possible with the current 3, let alone with the 5 we finally will have (6 were required by IAF, MoD cleared only 5). On the other side, PAFs AWACSs don't need to be more advanced, since they have only 1 borderline to cover and are focusing their forces to this anyway. They have the geographical advantage and soon even in numbers! They can send their AWACS up in a good rotation and at different areas of the borders at once, while hardly have a triple rotation for one borderline if at all (as mentioned one A50 was send back to Israel for repairs). So the current situation is more than alarming!

guys wasnt the awacs system tested in brazil on embrear aircraft a drdo awacs system? want it completely tested??? what is the progress on that?

No, they integrated the external sensors from DRDO an will do flight testings to see how the aerodynamic of the aircraft will be changed and stuff, while the actual radar system might be integrated in India only. So we must get the first aircraft, integrate and test the DRDO radar system and if it's passes the tests we can start inductions, but all this will need time.

does that mean we will keep on importing our weapon systems ever after!!!

Who cares? What's more important for you, the know that India is safe or to have pride that India has developed some arms and techs alone? I guess we all want both, but security of the nation must have priority!

I have no issues with buying foreign or co-developing arms and techs with foreign partners, als long it makes us capable to defend our country, the money spend is worth it. Especially when we are only at an early stage of indigenous R&D. Please look at our developments, we might have made progress in certain fields, but we are still far away from any major country. That's why all high end arms and techs in Indian forces are still foreign origin. Not because we like to buy foreign stuff, but because they are more capable and important for Indias defence.

Indigenous R&D must be improved, but only alongside the protection of India, but we shouldn't make ourselfs dependent and weaker because of it. The delays and failures of LCA made us weaker, the delays of DRDO AWACS as well, but while we still had enough fighters to fill the gap, we don't have enough AWACS and that's why I don't understand why the procurement of more AWACS is so slow.

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

Who cares? What's more important for you, the know that India is safe or to have pride that India has developed some arms and techs alone? I guess we all want both, but security of the nation must have priority!

I have no issues with buying foreign or co-developing arms and techs with foreign partners, als long it makes us capable to defend our country, the money spend is worth it. Especially when we are only at an early stage of indigenous R&D. Please look at our developments, we might have made progress in certain fields, but we are still far away from any major country. That's why all high end arms and techs in Indian forces are still foreign origin. Not because we like to buy foreign stuff, but because they are more capable and important for Indias defence.

Indigenous R&D must be improved, but only alongside the protection of India, but we shouldn't make ourselfs dependent and weaker because of it. The delays and failures of LCA made us weaker, the delays of DRDO AWACS as well, but while we still had enough fighters to fill the gap, we don't have enough AWACS and that's why I don't understand why the procurement of more AWACS is so slow.

u r only saying this as the economy is doing extremely well & we dont mind spending few billion bucks in weapons!!! but what will happen after a decade or two if the economic condition is not so good??? if we face a war or economic crises then,how will we get our weapons ??? the only possible solution is creating a mil-ind complex in the country in PPP model and get cutting edge technology through research... we are already way behind western countries and if we dont start now,the gap will be unbridgable.Plz dont blame DRDO 4 everything as they have more successful projects than failures.u know drdo gets less than $1 billon,& that too spends 60% in basic science R&D (as the indian universities r good 4 nothing).so,as we r passing through a peaceful time now,we must spend on R&D more(even if that means curtailing foreign procurements),& opening up certain ordinance factories,defence psus,drdo labs to foreign firms...indiginous research started in a full flow around 10 yrs ago(when the economy was turning around) and private firms stated to chip in 4-5yrs ago!!! if we start now we will definitely suceed after few decades,else, we will always have to rely on import.the economy was in a bad phase 2 decades ago & there is no gurantee it will be doing good as today after 20yrs

 

[sancho]

u r only saying this as the economy is doing extremely well & we dont mind spending few billion bucks in weapons!!!...

Distracting? I raised a reasonable question, but where is your answer?

What's more important for you, to know that India is safe or to have pride that India has developed some arms and techs alone?

As mentioned earlier, I don't care about economy or DRDO in this case, but about the security concern we are facing now, by waiting for DRDO AWACS and not had speed up the procurement for A50 Phalcons.

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

Distracting? I raised a reasonable question, but where is your answer?



As mentioned earlier, I don't care about economy or DRDO in this case, but about the security concern we are facing now, by waiting for DRDO AWACS and not had speed up the procurement for A50 Phalcons.

so ur ur not being able to understand from my long post??? lets make it short..."i don't care about the economy",if the economy is not strong,from where will we buy weapons??? every country will give us weapons in exchange for money and not free..if we r unable to create a proper mil-ind complex,if the economy is not strong,we won't be able to buy weapons.but mil-ind complex is something we cannot create overnight...so we need time & money ,even if that means curtailing foreign arms procurement,in this case,the conformal AWACS G550