Intercommunity Distrust due to "historical persecution narratives"

[Proud to be Pakistani]

What a damned fool you are.

I have no religion, old boy.

I am not the type who can be brainwashed in things that he has not seen!

Religion?

Have you seen God?

Hollow is it?

Do I believe in Fairy Tales?

Mmm...

you are an..

ATHEIST......

No wonder!...........Your logic is like your brains.............BS.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

You have not answered.

Have you seen God?

If you have not, then where is there the proof that God exists?

Brains accept reality because it can be seen.

It enjoys Fairy Tales since it allows the brains to take a rest and fantasise.

But beyond that the rational mind does not accept what one has not seen!

 

[IndianMunda]

Not only in War!

Consider this that majority of Muslims (who know Islam) and people of Pakistan want a good relationship with every Religion and Country but the only problem is that the other religions and Countries like India have not been fair to us from day one and now how can one trust them!

Muslims (who know Islam) are very rare, most of them have been brain washed by opportunists/mullah and become very aggressive, now result you can see in the Pakistan as a form of destruction in every field of life. Hope you will not go in denial mode. I do now know what is the current situation for promises made my Musharaf to reform the Madarsa in Pakistan. Here in Indian GoI failed to do so.

We have not killed other religions except in war!

I agree with you here. Some times they killed other region to spread own religion, and some times other regions reacted against aggression.
And believe me this is not going to stop even in near future.

As for Insecurity....... Muslims (true Believers) are not afraid of Death!

You and your floks are unsecure!

Here you could not understand the concept. For you some how Muslims and Pakistan is synonymous. But India is secular country, and have great sense of respect for other religion.

And who is not insecure these days? And no one is afraid of death too! But lets not talk about Death at first place, talk about peace, still there are great chance to prevail peace.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Here you could not understand the concept. For you some how Muslims and Pakistan is synonymous. But India is secular country, and have great sense of respect for other religion.

And who is not insecure these days? And no one is afraid of death too! But lets not talk about Death at first place, talk about peace, still there are great chance to prevail peace.

YOU AND RESPECT FOR OTHER RELIGIONS!...........


TAKE A HIKE........

So many threads are their for the killings in India against Muslims, Chritians...

What more is the Truth!

YOU?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Since the discussion on a different thread was veering of into this general direction, I thought I might as well start a new thread and invite comments - civil ones please with some sort of substantiation.

Often the common narratives of societies include "persecution" of some sort by some external ideology/peoples etc. In Muslim societies it is no different, and the refrain is one of the "Muslim world being perpetually undercut and schemed against by non-Muslims. But even if that narrative were true, can Muslims claim to be completely innocent when it comes to dealing with people of other faiths?

Did Muslims not invade other peoples to spread the "faith" when there was not necessarily any physical threat from those peoples? How does that work into a trust deficit towards Muslims by the conquered people? And when it comes to distrust for one another, is it not true that since we all have "skeletons in our closet", it is best to not let the past guide our sentiments towards peoples of other nations, faiths, ethnicities etc.

 

[OKtoBerFeSt]

I guess the biggest problem with most religions is that they make you worry more about the afterlife than life itself.

Problem is, we don't even know if there is an afterlife!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Oktoberfest -

The afterlife argument can work both ways - people believing in the concept so much that they restrain themselves from "negative acts", and therefore belief in the afterlife acting as a "Force for Good", but thats not the direction I wanted to take the thread in.

I am more interested in the perceptions amongst different communities about "persecution" by some other at some point during their histories, and using that perception to justify continued distrust (the Hindu Muslim distrust P2BP mentions for example). But the reality is that almost every community at some point or another has engaged in acts that would amount to "persecution" of another - conquering other nations, tribes etc. - even if they are of the same faith.

If the above is the case, then why do so many continue to dwell on the "persecution" narrative? You see this in the Muslim world, and this sentiment seems to be exploited through Hindutva philosophy as well.

 

[OKtoBerFeSt]

Oktoberfest -

The afterlife argument can work both ways - people believing in the concept so much that they restrain themselves from "negative acts", and therefore belief in the afterlife acting as a "Force for Good", but thats not the direction I wanted to take the thread in.

I am more interested in the perceptions amongst different communities about "persecution" by some other at some point during their histories, and using that perception to justify continued distrust (the Hindu Muslim distrust P2BP mentions for example). But the reality is that almost every community at some point or another has engaged in acts that would amount to "persecution" of another - conquering other nations, tribes etc. - even if they are of the same faith.

I don't know much about you guys, but here in the US, most folks (working professionals atleast) are not indoctrinated with any beliefs.

So, they don't really feel "persecuted" because they don't have any attachment with their religion. They are more concerned if some politician "persecutes" the constitution or their human rights.

That said, for some reason people are drawn towards faith, hence the scientologists and born-again christians and hare-krishnas and what not.

Here in the US, they don't really have a sense of history since we are all settlers, so the emotional connections with the old world were snapped a long time ago.

I guess in your world, people still have a "historical memory", passed down from parents to children, comprising of legends, myths and some real events.

If the above is the case, then why do so many continue to dwell on the "persecution" narrative? You see this in the Muslim world, and this sentiment seems to be exploited through Hindutva philosophy as well.

The Muslim world seems to be stuck in a timewarp, and i guess muslims tend to glorify the sultans and all that from what I've read on various forums.

China on the other hand, for better or for worse, has given up the old world for good.

 

[Spring Onion]

Here in the US, they don't really have a sense of history since we are all settlers, so the emotional connections with the old world were snapped a long time ago.
I guess in your world, people still have a "historical memory", passed down from parents to children, comprising of legends, myths and some real events.
The Muslim world seems to be stuck in a timewarp, and i guess muslims tend to glorify the sultans and all that from what I've read on various forums.

China on the other hand, for better or for worse, has given up the old world for good.

Somehow i agree with you about living in the past glories as that is one of the reasons that hold us back.
But i dont agree that this was passed on by parents and secondly past glories are one thing and faith is another.
Similarly religion for me is not just having a faith but to have a deep insight into the things it preaches to regularize life.

One more thing i dont think so that religion only deals with life hearafter i believe it is the stick that is used to bring some order to the life in terms of avoiding things that harm the society.

It is just like the punishments we have in modern laws for exaple every country has a law for theft and murder we all know that if steal or kill someone we are going to end up in jail with some punishment and that fear holds us back from committing a crime.

 

[OKtoBerFeSt]

Somehow i agree with you about living in the past glories as that is one of the reasons that hold us back.
But i dont agree that this was passed on by parents and secondly past glories are one thing and faith is another.
Similarly religion for me is not just having a faith but to have a deep insight into the things it preaches to regularize life.

People do tend to mix up past glories with religion you know, especially when religion is supposed to be the reason for the past glories!

Dunno bout faith, but all the "wisdom" of the bible can be found in any decent self-help book. If you want to help yourself personally, read a book
on managing your life, and perhaps learn yoga or something!!

Didn't your parents tell you that you are a muslim? What if your parents were Jewish? Wouldn't they make you jewish as well?

One more thing i dont think so that religion only deals with life hearafter i believe it is the stick that is used to bring some order to the life in terms of avoiding things that harm the society.

We have better sticks than that today!!

Its called modern law enforcement....and the concept of citizenship!!

It is just like the punishments we have in modern laws for exaple every country has a law for theft and murder we all know that if steal or kill someone we are going to end up in jail with some punishment and that fear holds us back from committing a crime.

Wow...if fear of being punished is the only thing holding you back from committing a crime...then god help you!!

 

[IndianMunda]

One more thing i dont think so that religion only deals with life hearafter i believe it is the stick that is used to bring some order to the life in terms of avoiding things that harm the society.

Who the hell is relegion to show stick to population. Its gov law should take care. Due to only this blind believe relegious preachers have become strong and made whole society hell.

It is just like the punishments we have in modern laws for exaple every country has a law for theft and murder we all know that if steal or kill someone we are going to end up in jail with some punishment and that fear holds us back from committing a crime.

So you are saying basic idea of religion to show fear of punishment to prevent crime. Oh that is reason criminals are growing in societes where religion is dominent.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Since Pakistan was made in the name of Islam! ...

A no trust situation between Hindu and Muslim exists from Centuries and that is what has created these issues where one thinks that he is right and the other thinks that he is right. I donot wish to say who is right but i onlt want to say that when both are feeling that they are right they you have conflicts like between Paksitan and India.

Since i posted that Problem between Pakistan and India is religion and after that Conflicts. I meant the thinking effect the Hindus and Muslims have in this region from last centuries.

Wrong the reason for the Pakistan & India animosity is not religion but nationalism its not a religious rather a nationalistic one see its not religion that makes a nation Strong but nationalism that inspired even some of the most amazing sacrifices & heroic achievement's that has written the destiny of so many great countries. even the Iranian Revelation in the late 1970s has produced perhaps one of the strongest nationalism in the Persian gulf. in my country Canada we have Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheists, Scientology etc but our identity is one & that is we are Canadians first & foremost as a Muslim i am proud to have some of the most beautiful mosques in Canada & as a Canadian Muslim i am also honored to have some of the most beautiful temples, gurduaras, churches, synagogue's etc & this does not makes me any lesser a Muslim i really like both Pakistan & India & i am privileged to have visited them to meet my loved ones i grew up in Saudi Arabia & i love it too but say if for example there is a cricket match or even presume war between them & Canada my loyalty my support if needed my life would be available for Canada all the way. i wouldn't even care to think what religion my comrades as well as those behind the enemy lines follow but rather under which flag one marches for me it has to be Canada bottom line.

 

[Logic note]

Wrong the reason for the Pakistan & India animosity is not religion but nationalism its not a religious rather a nationalistic one see its not religion that makes a nation Strong but nationalism that inspired even some of the most amazing sacrifices & heroic achievement's that has written the destiny of so many great countries. even the Iranian Revelation in the late 1970s has produced perhaps one of the strongest nationalism in the Persian gulf. in my country Canada we have Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheists, Scientology etc but our identity is one & that is we are Canadians first & foremost as a Muslim i am proud to have some of the most beautiful mosques in Canada & as a Canadian Muslim i am also honored to have some of the most beautiful temples, gurduaras, churches, synagogue's etc & this does not makes me any lesser a Muslim i really like both Pakistan & India & i am privileged to have visited them to meet my loved ones i grew up in Saudi Arabia & i love it too but say if for example there is a cricket match or even presume war between them & Canada my loyalty my support if needed my life would be available for Canada all the way. i wouldn't even care to think what religion my comrades as well as those behind the enemy lines follow but rather under which flag one marches for me it has to be Canada bottom line.

I think its kiddish to say that reason of animosity is nationalism. Nationalism doesnt create hatred between "US" and "them" .
Pakistani intelegensia has struggled to find the reason and the origin of this haterd in their heart for India, and your Faith can give you some glimpse of this animosity .
But i think the reason of Origin of Pakistan can reflect on this hatred .

Theories on Pakistan's origins

It has more to do with Islamic superiority complex .
being weaker then a Pagan country which they have ruled for generations is against the comprehension of Land of Purist

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Wrong the reason for the Pakistan & India animosity is not religion but nationalism its not a religious rather a nationalistic one see its not religion that makes a nation Strong but nationalism that inspired even some of the most amazing sacrifices & heroic achievement's that has written the destiny of so many great countries. even the Iranian Revelation in the late 1970s has produced perhaps one of the strongest nationalism in the Persian gulf. in my country Canada we have Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheists, Scientology etc but our identity is one & that is we are Canadians first & foremost as a Muslim i am proud to have some of the most beautiful mosques in Canada & as a Canadian Muslim i am also honored to have some of the most beautiful temples, gurduaras, churches, synagogue's etc & this does not makes me any lesser a Muslim i really like both Pakistan & India & i am privileged to have visited them to meet my loved ones i grew up in Saudi Arabia & i love it too but say if for example there is a cricket match or even presume war between them & Canada my loyalty my support if needed my life would be available for Canada all the way. i wouldn't even care to think what religion my comrades as well as those behind the enemy lines follow but rather under which flag one marches for me it has to be Canada bottom line.

What Nationalism you are talking about!

You think people in Pakistan have only Pakistan in common!

No......We the muslims can only unite under one Banner and that is ISLAM!

Since long muslims started thinking about nationalism and other regional approach. Consider the Islamic Empire when it was at the time of Caliphs. It was a united entity without any race or division. It was the prime of understanding the logic of Islam after Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) that as long as you are one and only one under the name of Islam without any division on the basis of color, language and region, you will be the Strongest.

Your understanding about life as per your religion is very poor, as with most of the muslim people in the world also as the days are nearing to the complete fall of muslim society.

I was just the same as most muslims now adays since we try to understand everything with logic and intent, It is not so, try to learn your religion and the teaching of islam and then you will have an indepth about your religion!

Born Muslims!

Respect for other religions is part of teaching of Islam but what you wanted to imply? ...

 

[Logic note]

Somehow i agree with you about living in the past glories as that is one of the reasons that hold us back.
But i dont agree that this was passed on by parents and secondly past glories are one thing and faith is another.
Similarly religion for me is not just having a faith but to have a deep insight into the things it preaches to regularize life. .

Faith is the key for religion . faith Makes u accpet the preachings of religon without questioning it with Logic and hence it leads to brutality . without faith religion is nothing.
You have faith in Islam and that is why you follow it . Non muslims have no faith in islam and thats why they dont follow it .

One more thing i dont think so that religion only deals with life hearafter i believe it is the stick that is used to bring some order to the life in terms of avoiding things that harm the society.

Thats Blind arrogance . Goodness or ethics is above religion . an atheist can also be a good human being .
Human conscience doesn't need any religion for its humanity .