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INSAS Excalibur & MCIWS Ghatak Assault Rifles to Replace Indian Army's Standard Issue INSAS Rifles

The specs mentioned are that of old 1B version,with orange polymer.The OFB website was never updated.The barrels had been chrome plated from day one,that's how the GSQR was written.The jamming happened due to poor maintenance and pouring too much oil into the bolt carrier assembly.Actually,all those reports of jammings and stoppages we keep hearing from time to time are old incidents and had been rectified long time ago.
And besides,I have used the 1B1 myself,never encountered any problem that could not have been rectified in the field.All you need to do is turn the gas regulator knob and clog the rifle a bit and you are all good to go!!That's how simple it was!!

And what is the cost of an AR 15 again??And you fired INSAS - where and when may I ask??

That moment of clearing the weapon in midst of a firefight can get one killed. I fired Insas in 2004/2005 (exactly don't remember), and EME/ Madras sappers HQ in bang...
 
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That moment of clearing the weapon in midst of a firefight can get one killed. I fired Insas in 2004/2005 (exactly don't remember), and EME/ Madras sappers HQ in bang...

It happened to me only once dear,only once!!And that too within a span of a whole year of training in different camps (not continuously through out the whole year),during my last year in the NCC!!And what cleaning??I never said anything about cleaning in my post!!Take a look at it once more!!
And which gun doesn't jam??Even the super expensive ones like Galil ACE and ARX 160 also suffered more stoppages than INSAS 1B1!!So does it make them crap??It sure does if we go by your logic,no??

And lastly,since you are saying you have fired the INSAS,can you tell me the marking layout of its firing selector??
 
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It happened to me only once dear,only once!!And that too within a span of a whole year of training in different camps (not continuously through out the whole year),during my last year in the NCC!!And what cleaning??I never said anything about cleaning in my post!!Take a look at it once more!!
And which gun doesn't jam??Even the super expensive ones like Galil ACE and ARX 160 also suffered more stoppages than INSAS 1B1!!So does it make them crap??It sure does if we go by your logic,no??

And lastly,since you are saying you have fired the INSAS,can you tell me the marking layout of its firing selector??
Read carefully, I said "clearing" not "cleaning". As I said, I fired it back in 2004/05, in NCC (it was an army attachment camp for b-cert. all karnataka engineering colleges are attached to madras regiment and we were in 1 eng coy, for a cert we were in 22nd kar bat and I do not remember what my unit was in MP, that is total 7 years of NCC for you) and i do not remember the layout. I could have searched net and posted here, but I do not care about you believing me or not. any way, we weren't allowed to change any settings. single shot mode and low gas cyl was it. I remember them showing how to change them though, gas cyl setting, fire selection and all... but any case, maruti 800s have problem, ferraris have problems too but that doesn't make them equals...
 
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INSAS was an excellent gun. We won Kargil with it. In an interview, general V K Singh praised it very much. He told that it fired very flat. (I do not know what is that). He further told that at that time somebody should have visualized the requirement of 15 years years subsequently and start development of INSAS replacement.

The Insas is an excellent gun. The context of my reply was something else. Flat is concerned with trajectory as @Omega007 pointed out. To add to that. If you are hit by an Ak47 at close range, you are not getting up.
 
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I have fired both insas (don't "remember the exact feeling since it is long time ago) and AR15. AR 15 is a breeze compared to insas. You can't put different arms into a blender and come up with a good design. I want to shout at these "designers" when they boast of "transparent magazine"...

Well M16 you have fired is a refined version of years of development since 1960s, you cant really just compare something state of art made by worlds largest economy & a cost effective gun made at home by India's ofb who have to arm a million strong infantry.
 
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Well M16 you have fired is a refined version of years of development since 1960s, you cant really just compare something state of art made by worlds largest economy & a cost effective gun made at home by India's ofb who have to arm a million strong infantry.
I partly agree. But OFB has long experience too. I was amzed to know that .303 by rifle factory ishapur is collectable in us (but they say never to fire it or it will blow up). The rifle spent 15 years on drawing board, 20 years in service but doesn't have adjustable stock? How difficult is that? It is small things like this makes it difficult for user... we can compare it to 1947 era guns but not 1980 era weapons. Plus utter lack of accesories (rifle has no decent space to mount them anyways)... my colleagues went rifle factory ishapore to install their first cad software, in 2006! What do you expect from those guys? That is exact reason our army still uses aks and such...
 
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but any case, maruti 800s have problem, ferraris have problems too but that doesn't make them equals...

Well bro, we have to.look at our pockets also. If maruti 800 breaks down even a local mechanic can get it up & running, its not the same with ferraris. We are equipping our special forces with m4, tavors etc because we can afford it. But when it comes to equipping a million strong force its whole different ball game. We will need something much cheaper.
By the due to Jamming, more soldiers have lost their lives while using m16 in early days. It became night mare for GIs in Vietnam war. After some modifications & issuing cleaning kits, those problems were overcome within a year.

I partly agree. But OFB has long experience too. I was amzed to know that .303 by rifle factory ishapur is collectable in us (but they say never to fire it or it will blow up). The rifle spent 15 years on drawing board, 20 years in service but doesn't have adjustable stock? How difficult is that? It is small things like this makes it difficult for user... we can compare it to 1947 era guns but not 1980 era weapons. Plus utter lack of accesories (rifle has no decent space to mount them anyways)... my colleagues went rifle factory ishapore to install their first cad software, in 2006! What do you expect from those guys? That is exact reason our army still uses aks and such...

Well I have to agree on those regards. I hope things changes in future.
 
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To add to that. If you are hit by an Ak47 at close range, you are not getting up.


Exactly, INSAS was made for this only. You will inflict the damage to enemy making others to rescue him resulting into low strength (In numbers) of enemy in battlefield.
 
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Read carefully, I said "clearing" not "cleaning". As I said, I fired it back in 2004/05, in NCC (it was an army attachment camp for b-cert. all karnataka engineering colleges are attached to madras regiment and we were in 1 eng coy, for a cert we were in 22nd kar bat and I do not remember what my unit was in MP, that is total 7 years of NCC for you) and i do not remember the layout. I could have searched net and posted here, but I do not care about you believing me or not.

No need to over react,come down from your high horse now,ladie!!I asked you where,cause I wanted to know whether you were a fellow cadet like me.
I asked you when,because I wanted to find out which version you might have fired (and I did find it out).
And I asked you about the selector layout,cause I just wanted to see if you had the eyes for the minute details or not!!Cause the markings in INSAS is quite uncommon,which is hard to forget!!By the way,it is basically impossible to find that out in the net!!
And by the way It was never my intention to question or doubt the veracity of your claim.But I should have put my intentions on clearer terms.It was my bad.

any way, we weren't allowed to change any settings. single shot mode and low gas cyl was it. I remember them showing how to change them though, gas cyl setting, fire selection and all...
That's really weird!!And we used to clean our rifles whenever we got the chance and in return, they never failed us in the range.
but any case, maruti 800s have problem, ferraris have problems too but that doesn't make them equals...

Of course,with only problem here being is the 'Ferrari' and 'Mercedes' of yours fared much worse compared to the Maruti 800!!Those white elephants (aka ARX and CZ BREN et al) were never designed keeping in mind Indian climate situations!!And about the so called Ferrari and all,CRPF has got more than ten thousand X 95s and the BSF has over 30000 of those Beretta MX4s (bought at over Rs 250 Cr if I may add),rusting in the warehouses,cause they do not work and they are still using INSAS 1B1s (Maruti 800 if you may)!!That's the 'Ferrari' and 'Mercedes' for you!!

I partly agree. But OFB has long experience too. I was amzed to know that .303 by rifle factory ishapur is collectable in us (but they say never to fire it or it will blow up). The rifle spent 15 years on drawing board, 20 years in service but doesn't have adjustable stock? How difficult is that? It is small things like this makes it difficult for user... we can compare it to 1947 era guns but not 1980 era weapons. Plus utter lack of accesories (rifle has no decent space to mount them anyways)... my colleagues went rifle factory ishapore to install their first cad software, in 2006! What do you expect from those guys? That is exact reason our army still uses aks and such...

Well what else do you expect from an entity like OFB??
 
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indian army should go for ak-103..............:guns:
 
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By the way,here is something that might interest y'all gentlemen around here.Take a look at the weight of various versions of the INSAS rifles,might come as a surprise.

IOFB INSAS

Notes: This is the new Indian assault rifle, based on the AK series and the Galil. Though 7000 of these weapons were due for delivery by 1994, service adoption was complicated by the lack of 5.56mm NATO ammunition in the country, and by 1998, the INSAS had been issued only to special units such as special operations units and paratroopers. 50 million rounds of 5.56mm NATO ammunition were ordered from Israel in 1996 (with an option for 50 million more), but this order was cut by Israel (possibly due to political pressure from the US), before one-quarter of the initial batch actually delivered, and the remainder of the order was not delivered until recently. In the meantime, India was able to order a huge amount of AKMS and ammunition from Romania, and many of the units slated to receive the INSAS got AKMs instead. Indian troops that did receive the INSAS are reportedly pleased with it, finding it to very reliable and accurate, and by 2006, some 300,000 INSAS assault rifles were in service with the Indian Army.

In a way, the INSAS could almost be considered a “Frankenweapon;” the basic operation is very close to that of the AKM and AK-74 series, along with the stamped steel receiver. However, the INSAS also uses a FAL-like manual gas regulator and gas cutoff for use with rifle grenades, the charging mechanism and charging handle of the Heckler & Koch G-3 and HK-33 (including its position on left side of the fore-end), and a folding carrying handle similar to that of the L-1A1. The stock may be made from wood or polymer, or be a folding metal stock. Standard magazines contain 20 rounds and are made from translucent polymer, but similar 30-round magazines (intended primarily for use in the INSAS LMG) will also fit into the INSAS assault rifle. (These translucent polymer magazines are actually modified from those of the Steyr AUG.) 22-round light alloy magazines were used during the INSAS’s development, but not officially adopted; however, such a large quantity of these magazines were made that they are issued quite often.

In 2007, a short version of the INSAS was designed, called the Kalantak. However, by 2010 it was still not in large-scale production, and only very limited issue had been made. The Kalantak has a shortened 13.11-inch barrel tipped by a standard INSAS flash suppressor, along with appropriately-shortened handguards. The handguards and pistol grip are of polymer, and the stock is side-folding. The Kalantak has a short length of MIL-STD-1913 rail in the scout position at the front of the receiver, with standard iron sights also being present. The rear sight is an aperture sight right now, but a drum-type sight is in development.

The Excalibur is another CQB version of the INSAS, one that has already seen large-scale issue and combat-testing. The Excalibur is designed for both police and military use; it has a 15.75-inch barrel which has reinforcement in the right places for bayonet fighting. The stock is folding and skeletonized. Atop the receiver is a MIL-STD-1913 rail, and newer-issue Excaliburs have MIL-STD-1913 rails atop and under the handguards. After its extensive testing, the Excalibur was deemed insufficient for use.

The newest version of the INSAS is the MSMC carbine (called the Amogh, and then the MINSAS, in development; MSMC stands for Modern SubMachine Carbine). Also designed for CQB, the biggest change from the rest of the INSAS series is the chambering of the MSMC for the new 5.56mm MINSAS round. Furniture is largely sheet steel enclosed in polymer, with receiver and working-part construction of steel. The current version has a very short length of MIL-STD-1913 rail atop the receiver primarily for small, reflex-type sights, and the handguards do not have any such attachment rails; a reflex-type sight is issued with the MSMC. The MSMC has a 13-inch barrel with the same sort of flash suppressor as the rest of the INSAS series, and a sliding stock on struts with a small polymer butt. Unusually for such a small weapon, the MSMC can take a bayonet. The magazine fits into the pistol grip, which connects to a long, wide trigger guard, big enough to enclose the fingers of the shooter’s entire shooting hand.

Twilight 2000 Notes: Three production batches were built before 1998 Pakistani air strikes put the INSAS production lines out of action; production stopped after a little over 18,000 rifles and did not start again until nearly 2020. Low-scale production of 5.56mm NATO rounds began in India in mid-1997, but production never kept up with demand, and even many special units went back to the AKM and FN-FAL. The Kalantak, Excalibur, and MSMC do not exist in the Twilight 2000 timeline.

Merc 2000 Notes: Production and adoption of the INSAS was largely discontinued due to budgetary reasons in 1996; after this, Indian troops were armed mostly with a combination of older Russian and Eastern European-made weapons.

Weapon

Ammunition

Weight

Magazines

Price

INSAS (Wood Stock)

5.56mm NATO

3.28 kg

20, 22, 30

$576

INSAS (Polymer Stock)

5.56mm NATO

3.18 kg

20, 22, 30

$586

INSAS 2B

5.56mm NATO

3.25 kg

20, 22, 30

$606

Kalantak

5.56mm NATO

3.31 kg

20, 22, 30

$734

Excalibur

5.56mm NATO

3.81 kg

20, 22, 30

$585

MSMC

5.56mm MINSAS

2.8 kg

30

$431


Weapon

ROF

Damage

Pen

Bulk

SS

Burst

Range

INSAS (Wood or Polymer Stock)

3

3

1-Nil

6

3

4

48

INSAS 2B

3

3

1-Nil

5/6

2

4

48

Kalantak

3/5

3

1-Nil

4/6

2

4/6

29

Excalibur

5

3

1-Nil

4/6

2

6

39

MSMC

5

2

1-1-Nil

3/5

3

6

33


IOFB Zittara

Notes: In 2006, the Indian Army expressed to IMI in Israel their interest in the Tavor series, and specifically the MTAR and MTAR 9mm (though they left the door open for the purchase of other members of the Tavor family). The Indian Army has invested about $20 million in the acquisition of these MTARs and ancillary equipment, and deliveries appear to have begun in mid-2007. These MTAR variants, called the Zittara series by the Indians, are destined to equip the Indian Army’s best special operations units.

The Indian variant of the MTAR-21, the Zittara Assault Rifle, is largely the same as the MTAR-21 in most respects: it is topped with a MIL-STD-1913 rail, able to take most underbarrel 40mm grenade launchers (given the right adapters), and equipped under most circumstances with the Israeli-made MARS sight – an integrated unit with a low-magnification sight, a red-dot reflex sight, day/night channels, and a laser aiming module. The sight can also take clip-on NVGs. The barrel of the Zittara, however, is 12.99 inches long – over 3 inches longer than that of its MTAR-21 parent. The flash suppressor is also (very) slightly different, a concession to local manufacturing methods, and the top MIL-STD-1913 rail is a longer than that found on the MTAR-21. Primarily due to the longer barrel and local manufacturing methods, the Zittara assault rifle is also a little heavier than the MTAR-21.

The Zittara shares with the MTAR-21 the ability to use kits to convert the Zittara into a submachinegun; however, the Zittara can also be converted into a sort of PDW/high-power SMG, firing a round based on the Colt’s experimental 5.56mm MARS round (no relation to the MARS sight). The 9mm Parabellum version uses the same barrel length as the Zittara assault rifle, but has no flash suppressor, and can use a locally-produced 30-round magazine (rumored to be based upon the Sten magazine) as well as Uzi magazines. The 9mm Parabellum version, like the MTAR 9mm, can also have its barrel replaced with barrel that has an integral silencer.

The High-Power SMG version also uses the same 12.99-inch barrel, but the flash suppressor is retained. The High-Power SMG version is fed by a 30-round magazine designed for the purpose. The cyclic rate of fire is slightly higher than that of the Zittara Assault Rifle, but the increase in cyclic rate is inconsequential for game purposes.

Twilight 2000 Notes: The Zittara Series is not available in the Twilight 2000 timeline.

Merc 2000 timeline: In the Merc 2000 timeline, the Indians have kept their Zittaras quite close, and have never exported them. Of course, some Zittaras have inevitably been captured by the Pakistanis, and the Pakistanis are reportedly working on reverse-engineering them.

Weapon

Ammunition

Weight

Magazines

Price

Zittara Assault Rifle

5.56mm NATO

3 kg

20, 30

$1063

Zittara SMG (Standard Barrel)

9mm Parabellum

2.59 kg

25, 30, 32, 40

$1039

Zittara SMG (Silenced Barrel)

9mm Parabellum

3.29 kg

25, 30, 32, 40

$1179

Zittara High-Power SMG

5.56mm MINSAS

2.85 kg

30

$943


Weapon

ROF

Damage

Pen

Bulk

SS

Burst

Range

Zittara Assault Rifle

5

3

1-Nil

4

2

6

26

Zittara SMG (Standard)

5

2

Nil

4

1

3

30

Zittara (Silenced, Standard Ammo)

5

2

Nil

5

1

3

25

Zittara (Silenced, Subsonic Ammo)

5

2

Nil

5

1

2

23

Zittara High-Power SMG

5

2

1-1-Nil

4

2

6

18

Indian Assault Rifles
Courtesy - pmaitra from D.F.I.
 
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That's really weird!!And we used to clean our rifles whenever we got the chance and in return, they never failed us in the range.
We were glad we weren't asked to clean the rifle!! it was a circus!! good sappers did it for us. Like you take what they called "chindi" (4 by 4 inch cloth piece) and clean the barrel like 100 times by pulling the string, make a fire and boil the water to give the gun a bath (I am serious, they did pour boiling water through the barrel)!! No thanks. Fire selection was way too confusing for me... all I wanted to do is fire it.. and whole mechanism is available on net, in this very forum
The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle - A close and careful look

The biggest grouse I have with all of the DPSU is utter lack of R&D and originality. There are glimmer of hope here and there but that is it. By getting satisfied with status-quo, We are putting our armed forces under high risk..

Of course,with only problem here being is the 'Ferrari' and 'Mercedes' of yours fared much worse compared to the Maruti 800!!Those white elephants (aka ARX and CZ BREN et al) were never designed keeping in mind Indian climate situations!!And about the so called Ferrari and all,CRPF has got more than ten thousand X 95s and the BSF has over 30000 of those Beretta MX4s (bought at over Rs 250 Cr if I may add),rusting in the warehouses,cause they do not work and they are still using INSAS 1B1s (Maruti 800 if you may)!!That's the 'Ferrari' and 'Mercedes' for you!!

And that is exactly what I am p!ssed about. Do we have only 2 options? outdated maruti 800 or white elephant ferrari? can't we make a decent weapon which is in between? or the best our DPSUs can come up with is maruti 800s? how many projects they start amid fanfare and get stuck midway looking for foreigner help? By the time they some how finish, the world would have moved to some other age...
 
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We were glad we weren't

asked to clean the rifle!! it was a circus!! good sappers did it for us.

Like you take what they called "chindi" (4 by 4 inch cloth piece) and clean

the barrel like 100 times by pulling the string, make a fire and boil the

water to give the gun a bath (I am serious, they did pour boiling water

through the barrel)!! No thanks.

Well,we used to strip down the guns always under the supervision of an

NCO.We would do that on polythene sheets,so as not to loose any parts in

the process.And yeah,the boiling water thing is new to me.By the

way,stripping and cleaning was quite fun actually,gave a feeling (however

unfounded it might have been) like we were professional soldiers,doing our

errands and all. :) And people do not use boiling water for field maintenance,it's usually done in the armory.

Fire selection was way too

confusing for me... all I wanted to do is fire it..
And that's the very reason I asked you about the layout.........it was very

unusual on the old 1B1 and hence,hard to forget.
and whole mechanism is

available on net, in this very forum
The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle - A close and careful look
Wow!!Didn't see this one before.Thanks for posting.By the way,it's the old

version.The new all black 1B1s and 2B versions have different layout in the

firing selector.The lever is lengthened so that the shooter doesn't have to

loose his grip while changing the mode and the marking layout has also been

changed to a more ergonomic fashion.

The biggest grouse I have with all of the DPSU is utter lack of R&D and

originality. There are glimmer of hope here and there but that is it. By

getting satisfied with status-quo, We are putting our armed forces under

high risk..
Yes,the DPSUs are extremely rigid in their way of doing things.


And that is exactly what I am p!ssed about. Do we have only 2 options?

outdated maruti 800 or white elephant ferrari? can't we make a decent

weapon which is in between? or the best our DPSUs can come up with is

maruti 800s? how many projects they start amid fanfare and get stuck midway

looking for foreigner help? By the time they some how finish, the world

would have moved to some other age...
The answer is the MCIWS - it has got everything one could expect from a modern assault rifle................ light weight,rail mounts,optics,UBGL,ballistic computer for programmable grenades,ambidextrous mag release and fire selector,adjustable butt stock ,a fully machined modular two piece receiver ...........you just name it.

And by the way,no one here believed me when I said that new versions of 1B1 are much lighter than the earlier orange ones,no one believed me cause I just couldn't share a link!!But now.................take a look at this.
Indian Assault Rifles
 
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Well,we used to strip down the guns always under the supervision of an

NCO.We would do that on polythene sheets,so as not to loose any parts in

the process.And yeah,the boiling water thing is new to me.By the

way,stripping and cleaning was quite fun actually,gave a feeling (however

unfounded it might have been) like we were professional soldiers,doing our

errands and all. :) And people do not use boiling water for field maintenance,it's usually done in the armory.


And that's the very reason I asked you about the layout.........it was very

unusual on the old 1B1 and hence,hard to forget.

Wow!!Didn't see this one before.Thanks for posting.By the way,it's the old

version.The new all black 1B1s and 2B versions have different layout in the

firing selector.The lever is lengthened so that the shooter doesn't have to

loose his grip while changing the mode and the marking layout has also been

changed to a more ergonomic fashion.


Yes,the DPSUs are extremely rigid in their way of doing things.



The answer is the MCIWS - it has got everything one could expect from a modern assault rifle................ light weight,rail mounts,optics,UBGL,ballistic computer for programmable grenades,ambidextrous mag release and fire selector,adjustable butt stock ,a fully machined modular two piece receiver ...........you just name it.

And by the way,no one here believed me when I said that new versions of 1B1 are much lighter than the earlier orange ones,no one believed me cause I just couldn't share a link!!But now.................take a look at this.
Indian Assault Rifles

Excelibar is heavier as per the charts than Insas with wooden stock or pollymar stock. Well thats unexpected.
 
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