Injustice of Donors against Pakistani Nation

[usman_1112]

the Indian government was expected to issue over Rs 150,000 crore worth of defence orders in the next five years,India plans to spend more than $30b over the next five years on modernising its largely Soviet-era weapons systems and has launched an ambitious civilian nuclear energy programme worth billions of dollars.The plan is to spend some $95bn over the next 15 years.India’s ambitious budget prompted Pakistan to up its own military budget, despite the country’s widespread poverty and socio-political problems.‘India and Pakistan will spend $ 15 billion over the next 10 years to maintain their [nuclear] arsenals, enough to feed and educate more than 37.5 million neglected children.’ The Atlantique naval aircraft shot down by India, for which Pakistan claimed $ 60 million in damages at the World Court in Hague, was worth enough to run all of Pakistan’s state universities for a period of nearly 2 years. Pakistan’s purchase of three Agosta class submarines from France cost $ 1.1 billion; this could have paid for the entire social agenda for one year. India’s purchase of 40 SU-30 MKI aircraft at $ 1.8 billion could have paid for the primary school education of 240 million children. Such exorbitant opportunity costs result in diminished national security.India and Pakistan respectively spend two and four dollars on defence and debt servicing. Forty percent of the world’s poor live in South Asia, compared with 23% of the world’s population.In South Asia, ‘today begins with the struggle of survival for 515 million poverty ridden destitutes, and tomorrow threatens the future of 395 million illiterate adults.’ Living at the edge, protests over a rise in the price of onions, bread or fuel prices may bring down their government. Pakistan spends seven per cent of its GDP on defence while India spends about 3.5 per cent.India said defence spending would grow by 25 percent in 2009-10 to $29.39 billion as it moves to modernise weapons systems and overhaul its security forces .According to Jane’s Information Group India is going to spend a whooping $32.7 billion on its defense budget. That makes 2.7% of India’s GDP. India is on weapon shopping spress all around the globe. America, Russia, Israel and France are finding it hard to fulfill the Indian demands for more and more arms.Pakistan's entire 2009-10 budget amounts to little over $30 billion.Such an arms buildup by India is sure to fuel an arms race that South Asians can ill afford with widespread abject poverty, hunger, malnutrition and very low levels of human development.

The human cost of this unfortunate escalation by India will mainly be born by its most vulnerable citizens who will probably lose the few crumbs of bread they are forced to live on now. It will continue the horrible sanitation situation that forces two-thirds of Indians to defecate in the open that spreads disease and kills millions of various diseases each year.he World Hunger Index of 88 countries published by IFPRI last year ranked India at 66 while Pakistan was slightly better at 61 .In the context of unprecedented economic growth (9-10 percent annually) and national food security, over 60 percent of Indian children are wasted, stunted, underweight or a combination of the above. As a result, India ranks number 62 along with Bangladesh at 67 in the PHI (Poverty Hunger Index)ranking out of a total of 81 countries.Pakistan ranks well ahead of India at 45 and it is included in the medium performing countries. PHI is a new composite indicator – the Poverty and Hunger Index (PHI) – developed to measure countries’ performance towards achieving MDG1 on halving poverty and hunger by 2015. The PHI combines all five official MDG1 indicators, including a) the proportion of population living on less than US$ 1/day, b) poverty gap ratio, c) share of the poorest quintile in national income or consumption, d) prevalence of underweight in children under five years of age, and d) the proportion of population undernourished.According to economist Amartya Sen, who won the Nobel Prize for his work on hunger, India has fared worse than any other country in the world at preventing recurring hunger.India might be an emerging economic power, but it is way behind Pakistan, Bangladesh and even Afghanistan in providing basic sanitation facilities, a key reason behind the death of 2.1 million children under five in the country.Neither Pakistan nor India can or should continue their misguided arms race, with India using China as its excuse, and Pakistan citing India's current arms buildup.Due to india bulling pakistan is forced to go in arm race and divert its resource for right to do self defence against bulling of indian army

 

[dabong1]

When pakistan asks for loan its always called "aid" making it sound so charitable as if where getting something for free.
The other words "Donor" "assistance" ect gives the same impression when in reality its a loan that you pay back to the bank(donor) and the "assistance" is the US giving the nod to the moneylenders.
We need self imposed sanctions.

 

[muse]

Americans want to use their tax Dollars as they see fit - too bad for Pakistani politicians, no free money to steal


US says no direct money to PPP government




Sunday, September 13, 2009
Aid to go to specific projects

By Shaheen Sehbai

WASHINGTON: The United States made it absolutely clear on Friday, days before President Asif Ali Zardari is to meet President Obama and British Prime Minister Gordon Brown in New York, that bulk of the money it will provide under the Kerry-Lugar Bill will not go directly to the PPP government but to specific projects and purposes for which it is intended.

This statement was made at a State Department briefing by Jacob J Lew, US Deputy Secretary for Management and Resources, who returned to Washington on Friday morning from a trip to Iraq, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.Lew spoke specifically about the “anxiousness” in Pakistan that money should flow through the government but he almost threw cold water on these hopes.

It was the latest indication that the US government was still grappling with the issue of a huge trust deficit and would not feel comfortable with aid money getting into the hands of the PPP government despite efforts in Washington to repair and whitewash the image of PPP leaders.

Jacob Lew told the briefing: “On the question of aid, there, as any of you who have seen the press releases put out would know, they’re very much anxious to have as much of the assistance as possible flow directly to the Pakistani government.

“We made clear that we’re looking at a variety of approaches, that we certainly intend to be supportive of Pakistani ministries where the programmes are ready to accept that support effectively, but that we also needed to look at the provincial level and to work with the traditional NGO community, and it wouldn’t be a one-size-fits-all approach.”

In a blunt statement, Lew said: “The key to us was that for each of the undertakings that we agreed upon, and they had to be things that were mutually attractive from the point of view of the Pakistani government and the US government, we had to choose a method of funding that was most likely to produce results efficiently and effectively, and that the money needed to go to the purposes for which it was intended.”

The official made it obvious that instead of providing aid to the government to spend wherever it liked, they would look at the ministry projects which are ready on a case to case basis and also provide direct aid to provinces and NGOs. That is what he meant by saying that “it would not be a one-size-fits-all approach.”

The News has learnt that the US is talking directly to provincial governments and other organisations working inside Pakistan to come up with specific projects.A top level delegation of the MQM, headed by Governor of Sindh Ishratul Ebad and Nazim Karachi Syed Mustafa Kamal, arrived in Washington on Saturday to talk directly to the State Department and other government agencies for projects in Karachi and Sindh. The visit apparently fits into the US policy of direct contacts for disbursing aid.

The visit of MQM leaders has been specially authorised by the MQM secretariat in London and sources in London told The News that the channels of the Pakistan government, including the embassy, had not been used to arrange these meetings. The Pakistan embassy comments on the possibility that the embassy may have been ignored for these direct MQM contacts with US officials were not immediately available.

Jacob Lew also spoke about his visit to Pakistan in general. “We focused on a number of issues. I think, as you all know, with the Kerry-Lugar programme being worked through now in Congress and the budget process working through, in terms of the appropriations, we’re ready to take the next step and put a detailed programme out there that really goes and specifies what forms of assistance will be provided.

“In the conversations we had with the Pakistani officials ñ we met with Prime Minister Gilani, we met with Finance Minister Tarin ñ they are very much focused on not just the amount of assistance in Kerry-Lugar, but the fact that it’s a multi-year commitment. They see it as an extremely important statement from the United States that weíre thinking in multi-year terms and thinking about a programme that has integrity over a period of time.

“We had detailed discussions following up on the secretary’s interest and the issue that Ambassador Holbrooke raised when he was there recently, of an energy relationship with Pakistan, how we could work together using the assistance that we’re providing to help Pakistan address what is one of its core economic issues. We raised also the fact that itís not just a question of assistance on projects, but that Pakistan had to take some very hard steps to reform its electric utility sector in order for there to be the real opportunity for sustainable progress. I was pleased that both in the conversation with the prime minister and with the finance minister, they heard that message and they responded very positively.

The US secretary also talked about his visit to the NWFP and said there was a “great deal of interest there, much as we heard at the federal level, in having US assistance provide a basis for partnership at ñ for provincial development. ìThere also seemed to be a fair amount of capacity at the provincial level. It was ñ we were impressed that the chief minister had a very good sense of his budget, his needs, and his limitations. And you had the sense that there was the capacity to partner quite effectively.”

Lew said he also met NGO and international organisation officials on the ground and asked a lot of questions about what they saw as being the next steps.“And thereís obviously two things that theyíre focusing on. One is kind of getting the first round of IDPs back home and safe for the winter. But they also are aware that with ongoing military activities, there could be new IDPs. So theyíre kind of working on coming to some kind of closure on the current experience while knowing that there may be more ahead.

“They were all focusing on the need for ongoing food and clothing support. It was not clear, frankly, the scope of damage to be repaired. Apart from the reports we got about schools and police stations, one didnít have the sense that there had been the ability to do the detailed assessment. The World Bank and the Asian Development Bank are supposed to complete an assessment even this week. So we will work together as we go through that.

“I guess the conclusion that I drew from the days we spent were that the government of Pakistan and the people of Pakistan have really done an extraordinary job in dealing with millions of displaced people in a way that, from the brief time we spent there, seemed to have left considerable feeling of ñ that people had been taken care of in very difficult circumstances. And it doesnít mean that there arenít problems. There certainly are still problems. But it ñ the notion of people taking tens of people into their homes, their small homes, on very modest incomes, it just ñ people-to-people ñ gave you great respect for the outpouring of help that came from just regular people,” he said.

 

[muse]

We said earlier that the combination of monpolists and politicians continues to prevent structural reform and punishes foreign capital, Dr. Saleem offers another word for the monopolies, Cartels and offers some insight into the formation of yet another cartel which seeks their interests over the national interest:


Capital suggestion



Cartels

Sunday, September 13, 2009
Dr Farrukh Saleem

Welcome to the ‘judicial cartel’. We have a banking cartel, a cement cartel, a sugar cartel, a steel cartel and a rental power cartel. Our czars are now sharpening their blades to deliver a brand-new cartel — the judicial cartel. O 170 million sheep, blades don’t cut other blades, these daggers are being sharpened for no one but you.

Just one Supreme Court isn’t enough; just one chief justice for 170 million isn’t enough. We need another Supreme Court and another chief justice, one with a waxen nose (the term ‘waxen nose’ was first used by Justice Bradley of the US Supreme Court and it means a ‘person who is pliant and easily influenced’). O people, haven’t you read the ‘Charter of Democracy’? Clause 4 under ‘Constitutional Amendments’ reads: “A Federal Constitutional Court will be set up to resolve constitutional issues, giving equal representation to each of the federating units, whose members may be judges or persons qualified to be judges of the Supreme Court, constituted for a six-year period. The Supreme and High Courts will hear regular civil and criminal cases. The appointment of judges shall be made in the same manner as for judges of the higher judiciary.”

O people, a Supreme Court toothless, blunted and neutered (from Latin, ‘of neither sex’). O people, a Constitutional Court with a waxen nose. Can sheep smell a ***?

Next, the sugar cartel. Mian Nawaz Sharif is the sweetest of all our sugar daddies. His kith and kin, his immediate plus his extended family collectively own Abdullah Sugar, Brothers, Chanar, Chaudhry, Haseeb Waqas, Ittefaq, Kashmir, Ramzan and Yousaf; that’s a total of nine.

Our second-most sweet sugar daddy must be left unnamed because his near and dear ones till most of his vineyards and love — as you know — knows all hidden paths. Hidden by dust, ashes and snow are Sakrand Sugar, Ansari, Mirza, Bachani and Pangrio. That’s a total of five but only thaw can reveal what has been hidden by snow.

Of the 41 sugar mills in Punjab at least 20 are owned by politicians of the PML-N and PML-Q. Chaudhry Shujaat, his kith and kin, his immediate plus his extended family collectively owned four sugar mills (there has been talk that Chaudhry sahib has sold his sugar mills and diversified into milk). Humayun Akhter, his kith and kin, his immediate plus his extended family collectively own Kamalia, Tandlianwalla, Miran and Layyah. This year every man, woman and child in this country must cough out an additional Rs550 so that the sugar cartel can make an additional Rs80 billion; a billion per mill.

Next, the banking cartel that pays five or six per cent to depositors but charges 18 to 36 per cent on loans. On November 5, 2007, the Competition Commission of Pakistan (CCP) took suo motu notice (CCP was established on October 2, 2007). On April 10, 2008, the CCP imposed a penalty of Rs30 million on Pakistan Banks’ Association and Rs25 million on seven banks (the PBA obtained a stay order from the SHC).

Next, the cement cartel with 21 members. On May 8, 2003, the cartel sat and hatched a scheme — all in writing — to rip off everyone who uses cement in this country. In 2008, the CCP took suo moto action. On August 27, 2009, the CCP imposed a penalty of Rs6.3 billion — equivalent to 7.5 per cent of the turnover. On September 4, the CCP chairman was served a termination notice.

Ever wondered why cartels are rich and three out of four Pakistanis make an equivalent of $2 a day? Our rulers are in love with cartels; they think cartels are beautiful. Remember, if Jack’s in love, he’s no judge of Jill’s beauty.

The writer is the executive director of the Centre for Research and Security Studies (CRSS). Email:farrukh15@hotmail.com

 

[M_Saint]

The following Write up was on the wall but wasn't seen by too many except some so-called conspiracy theorists like us (Myself, Idune, MBI etc). If the ultimate demise of Na-Pakistan (Saying out of frustration) wasn't seen yet then please read the following article very attentively on how planned and methodically the destructive scheme was panning up... US says no direct money to PPP government,




Sunday, September 13, 2009
Aid to go to specific projects

By Shaheen Sehbai

WASHINGTON: The United States made it absolutely clear on Friday, days before President Asif Ali Zardari is to meet President Obama and British Prime Minister Gordon Brown in New York, that bulk of the money it will provide under the Kerry-Lugar Bill will not go directly to the PPP government but to specific projects and purposes for which it is intended.

This statement was made at a State Department briefing by Jacob J Lew, US Deputy Secretary for Management and Resources, who returned to Washington on Friday morning from a trip to Iraq, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.Lew spoke specifically about the “anxiousness” in Pakistan that money should flow through the government but he almost threw cold water on these hopes.

It was the latest indication that the US government was still grappling with the issue of a huge trust deficit and would not feel comfortable with aid money getting into the hands of the PPP government despite efforts in Washington to repair and whitewash the image of PPP leaders.

Jacob Lew told the briefing: “On the question of aid, there, as any of you who have seen the press releases put out would know, they’re very much anxious to have as much of the assistance as possible flow directly to the Pakistani government.

“We made clear that we’re looking at a variety of approaches, that we certainly intend to be supportive of Pakistani ministries where the programmes are ready to accept that support effectively, but that we also needed to look at the provincial level and to work with the traditional NGO community, and it wouldn’t be a one-size-fits-all approach.”

In a blunt statement, Lew said: “The key to us was that for each of the undertakings that we agreed upon, and they had to be things that were mutually attractive from the point of view of the Pakistani government and the US government, we had to choose a method of funding that was most likely to produce results efficiently and effectively, and that the money needed to go to the purposes for which it was intended.”

The official made it obvious that instead of providing aid to the government to spend wherever it liked, they would look at the ministry projects which are ready on a case to case basis and also provide direct aid to provinces and NGOs. That is what he meant by saying that “it would not be a one-size-fits-all approach.”

The News has learnt that the US is talking directly to provincial governments and other organisations working inside Pakistan to come up with specific projects.A top level delegation of the MQM, headed by Governor of Sindh Ishratul Ebad and Nazim Karachi Syed Mustafa Kamal, arrived in Washington on Saturday to talk directly to the State Department and other government agencies for projects in Karachi and Sindh. The visit apparently fits into the US policy of direct contacts for disbursing aid.

The visit of MQM leaders has been specially authorised by the MQM secretariat in London and sources in London told The News that the channels of the Pakistan government, including the embassy, had not been used to arrange these meetings. The Pakistan embassy comments on the possibility that the embassy may have been ignored for these direct MQM contacts with US officials were not immediately available.

Jacob Lew also spoke about his visit to Pakistan in general. “We focused on a number of issues. I think, as you all know, with the Kerry-Lugar programme being worked through now in Congress and the budget process working through, in terms of the appropriations, we’re ready to take the next step and put a detailed programme out there that really goes and specifies what forms of assistance will be provided.

“In the conversations we had with the Pakistani officials ñ we met with Prime Minister Gilani, we met with Finance Minister Tarin ñ they are very much focused on not just the amount of assistance in Kerry-Lugar, but the fact that it’s a multi-year commitment. They see it as an extremely important statement from the United States that weíre thinking in multi-year terms and thinking about a programme that has integrity over a period of time.

“We had detailed discussions following up on the secretary’s interest and the issue that Ambassador Holbrooke raised when he was there recently, of an energy relationship with Pakistan, how we could work together using the assistance that we’re providing to help Pakistan address what is one of its core economic issues. We raised also the fact that itís not just a question of assistance on projects, but that Pakistan had to take some very hard steps to reform its electric utility sector in order for there to be the real opportunity for sustainable progress. I was pleased that both in the conversation with the prime minister and with the finance minister, they heard that message and they responded very positively.

The US secretary also talked about his visit to the NWFP and said there was a “great deal of interest there, much as we heard at the federal level, in having US assistance provide a basis for partnership at ñ for provincial development. ìThere also seemed to be a fair amount of capacity at the provincial level. It was ñ we were impressed that the chief minister had a very good sense of his budget, his needs, and his limitations. And you had the sense that there was the capacity to partner quite effectively.”

Lew said he also met NGO and international organisation officials on the ground and asked a lot of questions about what they saw as being the next steps.“And thereís obviously two things that theyíre focusing on. One is kind of getting the first round of IDPs back home and safe for the winter. But they also are aware that with ongoing military activities, there could be new IDPs. So theyíre kind of working on coming to some kind of closure on the current experience while knowing that there may be more ahead.

“They were all focusing on the need for ongoing food and clothing support. It was not clear, frankly, the scope of damage to be repaired. Apart from the reports we got about schools and police stations, one didnít have the sense that there had been the ability to do the detailed assessment. The World Bank and the Asian Development Bank are supposed to complete an assessment even this week. So we will work together as we go through that.

“I guess the conclusion that I drew from the days we spent were that the government of Pakistan and the people of Pakistan have really done an extraordinary job in dealing with millions of displaced people in a way that, from the brief time we spent there, seemed to have left considerable feeling of ñ that people had been taken care of in very difficult circumstances. And it doesnít mean that there arenít problems. There certainly are still problems. But it ñ the notion of people taking tens of people into their homes, their small homes, on very modest incomes, it just ñ people-to-people ñ gave you great respect for the outpouring of help that came from just regular people,” he said.

US says no direct money to PPP government


It went like this, MQMite Mush was used to snatch power from Newaz to back-roll all pro-Islamic, Anti-India/Zion & Pro-Nuke policy then Zardari/PPP was brought to power to weaken the federation further through Pashtu massacre, Baluch autonomy, over burdening state by IMF/WB's loan etc. Now UN, West have started IDP outcries that has correlated E PAK's scenario. So another disintegration game is up and in full swing. It seems like some gigantic pushes are that all it needs at the next phase. Likewise, here Malu starts tightening Mumbai screws up and their troops start firing at our Pakistani brothers (Indian forces fire on Pak troops at Wagah)...

May Almighty help the unfortunate people of the nation called Pakistan from annihilation and exodus, amen?

 

[usman_1112]

Cartels

Sunday, September 13, 2009
Dr Farrukh Saleem
dear Muse the article of DR farruka saleem totally same which is in
SENSELESS Privatization IN PAKISTA
22/December/2008
LOOT SALE MELLA

3000billions Rupees (US$42 billion) worth of corruption in Privatization process during1985 to 2008

The objectives of privatization are not much different from those in other countries of the world. According to Kh. Muhammad Asif, ex-Chairman Privatisation Commission,in Nawaz sharif 2nd tenure the government programmed for privatization is based on “the principle of reducing its direct participation in commercial activities” and ensuring “equity and economic justice”

We will see the debt reducing, equity and economic justice in privatization process in Pakistan from 1985 to 2008 according to the statement of Mr. clean looting and plundering of national assets by East India company style. Corruption is a standard feature of privatization and contracting-out. Naturally so—the profits to be extracted from a privatized service make it worth investing in a bribe to increase the chance of winning a contract. The slogan of 22 families and the cry against concentration of industrial wealth in the 1960s, the Government should have learnt from the history and evolved a prudent policy one unit for one party. Privatization in Pakistan was not Transparent but smacked of cronyism and corruption. The leading cartels were created after 1985 to 2008 privatization in Pakistan. Oil cartel based on 10 oil companies, Brokerage cartel based on 4 groups, Auto mobile cartel based on 3 companies, Sugar cartel based on 24 companies, Cement cartel based on 10 companies Food and beverage cartel 12 companies, Fertilizers cartel based on 4 group, banking cartel based on 10 group. If we go along with the announced pace of privatization our economy, which already in recession will suffer and we will lose our economic sovereignty
forums.opendemocracy.net/node/47241
dear fellow we must discuss these matter and give more information to each other ,so we can reach at a conculsion.

 

[vsdoc]

Vsdoc,

Your post included some good points about the failure of Pakistani leadership, military and civilian, and also included the deluded rant of 'deflection on to Hindustan'.

Indians like you have an exaggerated sense of self-importance - you cannot think outside of the fantasy that the world (or in this case Pakistan) revolves around India, and hence the nonsense about 'India and Pakistan have spent the last 62 years concentrating on India'.

AM believe me when I tell you that not ONE in 1.2 billion Indians would want this so-called "importance" forced on to our nation by a jealous, weak, and hostile neighbour. We would be most comfortable (and grateful) being the least "important" people in the world for Pakistan, and would be the first to help Pakistan help itself, if it would translate into Pakistan looking within than across the border with malice. I mean seriously buddy, your country goes around asking for alms from America in the form of financial aid and arms, not to use it for yourselves, but to use it against us ...... yes, I'm talking about Mush's recent rants (confessions of a general in exile) on TV. Does that not prove my first statement which seems not to have gone down too well with both you and developero?

Facts are facts buddy ..... India is where it is today because of Democracy, and Indians are where they are today because of Secularism. Both of which Pakistan could have adopted, but did not. And like any marriage, Democracy and Secularism need to be nurtured and worked at over time. There will be adjustment pangs and growing pains, which we have gone through as a nation and in many cases, still are. But over time India and Indians have matured and come into their own as a working Democracy, and it did not happen overnight, so please do not expect yours to either.

Yes, I agree with developero that for a nation such as yours never used to a proper democracy with a strong and incumbent opposition and structure in place, in times of turmoil like you are going thru today, it would be tempting to look again to a military dictator to set things right for you with a strong hand. The problem lies in the fact that in your experiments with various dictators, you have to rely on providence and divine help on getting a good one, and if a bad one comes along, you the pakistani people have to option but to grin and bear it until he is bumped off or overthrown.

There is no structure in place for accountability, for regular appraisal and change, for checks and balances for those in power, for choice ...... in the hands of the people. Till that happens, this game of yo-yo between the army generals whipping up anti-India rhetoric to maintain their own importance (and that of the forces they command, the power they weild, and the military/self aid they beg for from foreign "proxy masters") and the corrupt self-serving feudal lords will continue, and like in a game of ping-pong, the pakistani people will be the small white ball.

And please, its really easy being a defeatist and saying "look at my choices .... who do i vote for." We educated urban Indians were like that till a couple of decades ago. You need to realise that your leaders reflect the people they come from. If you wont help yourself, and choose instead to be cynical sitting in another country, then nobody else is going to step in and help you. Good choices do not come around overnight. You the Pakistani people have to give the system the impetus and the motivation to force the good choices to come around, because not being good does not pay anymore. Simple. You think we in India are spoilt for choice? No we are not. But democracy forces every government to put the country first on core issues, before taking the time out for helping themselves, which is a given so lets not concern ourselves too much about that as long as we the people are getting what we want.

The day we stop getting what we want, we should have a system in place to demand what we want, and if we do not still get it, then to demand a change of guard amongst those we choose to lead us, till we get what we want. And this sytem should be like clockwork, guaranteed by the constitution, come at intervals which give enough time to the incumbents to show results yet not too long so as to cause public unrest should the results not come, and have a system of checks and balances in place in the form of a strong, united and nationalistic opposition (which is completely absent in pakistan's form of "democracy" .... you are either in power or dead or in exile ..... there is no scope for co-existence in running the nation).

If you think I am stating the obvious, or simplistic solutions, or bookish theory, or pontificating, so be it. I am Indian, I appreciate what i have, I think it would work for you too and wish you get it too eventually (for both our peace of mind).

Cheers, Doc

 

[muse]

We spoke of monopolies and cartels and how the politicans support their existence -- now if we have what Pakistanis call "democracy", surely we should be able to change this - so why is it not going to happen any time soon?

 

[Developereo]

a jealous, weak, and hostile neighbour.

Funny, that's the way China describes India. Although, to be honest, India's other neighbors describe her as deluded, arrogant and a bully.

We would be most comfortable (and grateful) being the least "important" people in the world for Pakistan, and would be the first to help Pakistan help itself, if it would translate into Pakistan looking within than across the border with malice.

Yes, we should emulate the high standards of neighborly conduct set by India. That's probably why China, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are so fond of India.

Does that not prove my first statement which seems not to have gone down too well with both you and developero?

Pakistan obsessed with India? The mere fact that you believe that is proof, ironically, of Indian media's obsession with Pakistan. India is just the local bully we have to keep at bay, while we focus on our other interests.

India, on the other hand, has cemented its unity largely on the back of anti-Pakistan paranoia. Until recently, the Indian media has been obsessed with Pakistan, full of jingoistic blatherings to foster a sense of anti-Pakistan, pro-India patriotism. Even now, we see evidence of this juvenile character of Indian media regarding the Chinese border incidents.

Facts are facts buddy .....

And an alien concept, evidently, to people steeped in "Incredible India" mythology.

India is where it is today because of Democracy, and Indians are where they are today because of Secularism.

"Incredible India" buzzwords are no substitute for a cogent argument. Democracy is not a prerequisite for economic development, as evidenced by China, and the canard of Indian "secularism" has been shot, stuffed and roasted several times.

Indian "democracy" didn't deliver squat for the first 45 years. It is only in the last 15-odd years that India's economy has grown. And this period coincides with global economic growth. Now you might argue why India benefitted so much more from the global trend than Pakistan did? That is a valid question and the answers, to India's credit, involve prudent economic reforms by India and, conversely, stupid political decisions by Pakistan. Ironically, we had a democratic government during most of that decade.

over time India and Indians have matured and come into their own as a working Democracy,

Too bad your "democracy" has been unable to cross the Kashmir mountains.

it would be tempting to look again to a military dictator to set things right for you with a strong hand. The problem lies in the fact that in your experiments with various dictators, you have to rely on providence and divine help on getting a good one, and if a bad one comes along, you the pakistani people have to option but to grin and bear it until he is bumped off or overthrown.

Well, duh! Who would wish for a malevolent dictator?

army generals whipping up anti-India rhetoric to maintain their own importance (and that of the forces they command, the power they weild, and the military/self aid they beg for from foreign "proxy masters")

As opposed to the RAW-influenced Indian media whipping up anti-Pakistan, anti-China rhetoric to spend more money on defense?

India defense budget up 25 percent for 2009-10 - The China Post

If you think I am stating the obvious, or simplistic solutions

You are not stating any solutions.

or pontificating

Bingo!

I am Indian, I appreciate what i have, I think it would work for you too and wish you get it too eventually (for both our peace of mind).

Cheers, Doc

Good for you, and appreciate the good wishes. Everybody agrees that reforming democracy has to be a grass roots effort, but these efforts cannot succeed without a charismatic leader to rally the troops; otherwise they just fizzle out and die. I can assure you that if such a leader emerged tomorrow, the Pakistani public is ready to be galvanized behind them.

 

[vsdoc]

Funny, that's the way China describes India. Although, to be honest, India's other neighbors describe her as deluded, arrogant and a bully.

Mouthful of sand, buttocks exposed ...... pass.

Yes, we should emulate the high standards of neighborly conduct set by India. That's probably why China, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are so fond of India.

Jee hazoor.

Pakistan obsessed with India? The mere fact that you believe that is proof, ironically, of Indian media's obsession with Pakistan. India is just the local bully we have to keep at bay, while we focus on our other interests.

Not yet come up for air ..... words hence finding their way from exposed opposite end of alimentary canal.

India, on the other hand, has cemented its unity largely on the back of anti-Pakistan paranoia. Until recently, the Indian media has been obsessed with Pakistan, full of jingoistic blatherings to foster a sense of anti-Pakistan, pro-India patriotism. Even now, we see evidence of this juvenile character of Indian media regarding the Chinese border incidents.

India has cemented her unity because of religious and cultural tolerance, and the strong sense of one nation, one people, and the pride we feel at finding our rightful place at long last in the global pecking order on the back of really hard labour and sacrifices of our fathers. And this is not hyperbole sir ...... ask any Indian in his thirties here to remember his childhood and his family's struggles compared to the life his kids lead today and you will find yound men and women proud to be Indians and extremely grateful to the hardships and personal sacrifices made by their middle class parents to educate them and make them what they are today on small salaries and none of the luxuries we take for granted today ..... and I am talking about just 20-30 years ago.

And an alien concept, evidently, to people steeped in "Incredible India" mythology.

Grapes are sour. We are happening, we are proud we are happening, and we market our happeningness pretty well ..... why is that such a source of angst for you in multiple posts?

"Incredible India" buzzwords are no substitute for a cogent argument. Democracy is not a prerequisite for economic development, as evidenced by China, and the canard of Indian "secularism" has been shot, stuffed and roasted several times.

Pakistanis are not the Chinese buddy. You are much closer to Indians as a people. Democracy is what you need, whether you want to admit it or not. And its not going to come easy or quickly so lets see if you have the national fibre (and spine) for a real fight. Especially one where big bad India is not involved and hence (hopefully) cannot be dumped on.

As for Secularism, you dont really need it coz you are mostly muslims anyways so you can keep badmouthing ours and be happy ..... no skin off our backs.

Indian "democracy" didn't deliver squat for the first 45 years. It is only in the last 15-odd years that India's economy has grown. And this period coincides with global economic growth. Now you might argue why India benefitted so much more from the global trend than Pakistan did? That is a valid question and the answers, to India's credit, involve prudent economic reforms by India and, conversely, stupid political decisions by Pakistan. Ironically, we had a democratic government during most of that decade.

Must make you feel really warm and cozy to say that one billion Indians and the decisions and policies adopted as a nation had nothing to do with our progress and that it was simply a given and a natural consequence of the larger global trend. Brilliant ...... did you debate in school? And equally astutely (and left handedly), you blame the failure of your country to adopting the form of governance of your favourite whipping boy, as if Pakistani "democracy" comes anywhere close to the Indian model.

Its like trying your hand one fine Sunday at galli cricket, sucking big time at it, wanting to make it an alternative mid-life career move, and cribbing about why youre not making as much money as Sachin Tendulkar ...... and then blaming cricket for your woes.

Basically, sand continues to taste good, and the wind on our bottoms helps dissipate the loads of hot air we are full of ......

Too bad your "democracy" has been unable to cross the Kashmir mountains.

Done to death rant ...... will respond when and if I am brain dead sometime in the future.

Well, duh! Who would wish for a malevolent dictator?

That's exactly my point ..... you the common Pakistani can only wish ..... beyond that theres not a lot else you can do (or want to do as a nation).

As opposed to the RAW-influenced Indian media whipping up anti-Pakistan, anti-China rhetoric to spend more money on defense?

Rant mode detected ...... tune off channel selected.

You are not stating any solutions.

The process of finding solutions starts first with identifying and accepting problems. Your problems, your solutions.

Good for you, and appreciate the good wishes. Everybody agrees that reforming democracy has to be a grass roots effort, but these efforts cannot succeed without a charismatic leader to rally the troops; otherwise they just fizzle out and die. I can assure you that if such a leader emerged tomorrow, the Pakistani public is ready to be galvanized behind them.

Keep wishing and waiting ..... and sitting on your behind and lamenting and armchair debating ...... while your country goes up in flames.

People deserve the leaders they get. When and IF your "democracy" survives and your nation matures, you will come to realise that Democratic governance and progress is about systems and vision and policies and collective national debate and consensus ..... and not about personalities.

Make a begining guys ...... knights in shining armour and messiahs come only once in a few millenia.

All the best!

Cheers, Doc

 

[Developereo]

Mouthful of sand, buttocks exposed ...... pass.

I see you are still smarting from that head-in-the-sand picture I applied to you guys a couple of weeks back.

Man, you really need to get a thicker skin, or cultivate more wit.
You remind me of George in Seinfeld, especially that "Comeback" episode.

Not yet come up for air ..... words hence finding their way from exposed opposite end of alimentary canal.

Still smarting, eh?

India has cemented her unity because of religious and cultural tolerance,

and the strong sense of one nation, one people, and the pride we feel at finding our rightful place at long last in the global pecking order on the back of really hard labour and sacrifices of our fathers. And this is not hyperbole sir ...... ask any Indian in his thirties here to remember his childhood and his family's struggles compared to the life his kids lead today and you will find yound men and women proud to be Indians and extremely grateful to the hardships and personal sacrifices made by their middle class parents to educate them and make them what they are today on small salaries and none of the luxuries we take for granted today ..... and I am talking about just 20-30 years ago.

I think you have a very promising career as a writer for "Incredible India" media.
If they won't take you, you might work for Bollywood, although your creativity would be wasted there.

We are happening, we are proud we are happening, and we market our happeningness pretty well ..... why is that such a source of angst for you in multiple posts?

You seem to have trouble distinguishing humor from angst.

Especially one where big bad India is not involved and hence (hopefully) cannot be dumped on.

Poor wittle India. All her neighbors dumping on her.
Too bad, so sad.

As for Secularism, you dont really need it coz you are mostly muslims anyways so you can keep badmouthing ours and be happy ..... no skin off our backs.

How can we badmouth a figment of the Indian media's imagination?

Must make you feel really warm and cozy to say that one billion Indians and the decisions and policies adopted as a nation had nothing to do with our progress and that it was simply a given and a natural consequence of the larger global trend.

You are being disingenuous. I clearly gave credit to your economic policies in the early 90s.

you blame the failure of your country to adopting the form of governance of your favourite whipping boy, as if Pakistani "democracy" comes anywhere close to the Indian model.

No, my debating champion. I said that sham democracy, as in Pakistan's, was no guarantee of economic progress.

Its like trying your hand one fine Sunday at galli cricket, sucking big time at it, wanting to make it an alternative mid-life career move, and cribbing about why youre not making as much money as Sachin Tendulkar ...... and then blaming cricket for your woes.

As stated above, logic and reading comprehension seem to be lacking for you. The result of a lifetime of "Incredible India" spoonfeeding, no doubt.

Basically, sand continues to taste good, and the wind on our bottoms helps dissipate the loads of hot air we are full of ......

Still smarting, I see.

That's exactly my point .....

Oh, you have a point in there somewhere? I was beginning to wonder.

you the common Pakistani can only wish ..... beyond that theres not a lot else you can do (or want to do as a nation).

We are touched by your concern, but we will take it from here.

tune off channel selected.

There comes that "Incredible India" media conditioning.

The process of finding solutions starts first with identifying and accepting problems. Your problems, your solutions.

Grab a chair and relax. We will solve our problems ourselves.

Democratic governance and progress is about systems and vision and policies and collective national debate and consensus ..... and not about personalities.

If you confuse RAW-influenced "Incredible India" media propaganda with "national debate and consensus", then you are terminally deluded.

Democratic elections are as much about personality and charisma as they are about issues. Just ask Al Gore or Bob Dole.

knights in shining armour and messiahs come only once in a few millenia.

We are discussing politics here. I believe medieval theology is two doors down.

All the best!

Same to you. And I will remember to be more careful next time.
If I had known you were so sensitive, I would never have made fun of your posts.

 

[vsdoc]

I think you have a very promising career as a writer for "Incredible India" media. If they won't take you, you might work for Bollywood, although your creativity would be wasted there.

And you are a dead ringer for Pakistani Idol.

No, my debating champion. I said that sham democracy, as in Pakistan's, was no guarantee of economic progress.

Developing my cricket analogy further ...... so here you are trying your hand at galli cricket ...... trying to match up to Tendulkar in the process ..... when this local bully comes in wanting instead to play gilli-danda. Of course you are the gilli, and he is but of course the one holding the danda. While at it, he digs up the hastily prepared pitch, breaks a few stumps, shoves a few up where the sun don't shine, sends the bat and ball for a prolonged paid vacation out of the area, and (here's the coup de grace) not only convinces you that gilli-danda is the way to go, but that Sachin aggressively covets your ramshackle shack and wants to come and take over your galli and play his own brand of one day internationals there ...... with his own team members ...... where you will at best be the drinks boys. So the local dada sends pleas for economic help (and new improved better and more ballistic GILLAS) to a rich and powerful but naive gora. Gora sends money for the galli cricket fund, but most of it is siphoned off into dada fund and for building bigger more dhamakedar GILLAS to take on Sachin (and to hold on to a part of Sachin's house which he had barged into many years ago when Sachin was still a school boy playing in Dadar .... after pushing in other gilli-danda players and then claiming gilli-danda-er majority over the native cricketers).

To be continued ......

Grab a chair and relax. We will solve our problems ourselves.

We are relaxed wonly, and watching. Of course, as friendly neighbours, we are holding up the mirror to/for you (as both your hands seem to be full) ..... after of course politely removing the green tinted ISI sponsored goggles you're wearing, and offering you endless hot fragrant cups of Coorgi coffee.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Developereo]

And you are a dead ringer for Pakistani Idol.

Appreciate your vote, but I am not musically inclined.

Developing my cricket analogy further ......
this local bully shoves a few up where the sun don't shine

I am afraid you wasted your talents.
I am not a cricket fan, nor have I played gilli-danda since I was a kid, so most of your rant was wasted on me.
All I got is that you have some sort of fascination with rectal insertions.

Tell you what? You keep on practising that writing streak of yours and you may one day get a job with "Incredible India" media.

Meanwhile, I would like to get back to the topic. If you have nothing to contribute on-topic, may I suggest trying another thread? There are lots of interesting threads active.

We are relaxed wonly, and watching. Of course, as friendly neighbours, we are holding up the mirror to/for you (as both your hands seem to be full) ..... after of course politely removing the green tinted ISI sponsored goggles you're wearing, and offering you endless hot fragrant cups of Coorgi coffee.

Cheers, Doc

The ISI again? Yeah, boss, they're everywhere. I bet there's an ISI spook under your bed...

Boo

 

[vsdoc]

I am planning on titling this soap "Inzi ke Tendulkari khwaab" ..... what do you say dost?

Then again "khwaab" doesnt quite capture the essence, the true pathos ...... can you help me with urdu for "delusions of grandeur" instead?

Or should it be "Aloo banne chala French Fry"?

Decisions decisions ......

Cheers, Doc