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Injustice of Donors against Pakistani Nation

If the generals, the politicians and the economic elite are all in cahoots, then there is not much hope for Pakistan.

Were you not the same poster who responded with a well thought articulate "blah blah blah" post when I said essentially the same thing in the Big Brother thread my friend?

Why? Did it hurt because an Indian was saying it?

Cheers, Doc
 
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if we want balme we must talk about mulla,military ,civil service and judicary alliance,which commiteed more corruption than politican..so please fracker do not balme on one side .clapping by both hand.pakistan become fragile state due to all actors not one

What about the common man in Pakistan? Where does he as the overwhelming majority fit into this complex jigsaw of minority players?

Uncomfortable questions?

Cheers, Doc
 
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I am not saying defense is not corrupt.. I can't say that, i know all institution include defense in pakistan is corrupt.. BUT institutes depends upon the government of the country.. may be defense rule more then democratic government, but when we look in depth, there was democratic government running under defense, which was accused for corruption.. such as PML Q under Musharaf.. and we have seen what they done.. similarly ZAB under Ayub Khan, and many others.. I also agree people select government in democracy.. but there are 70% of pakistani who don't vote at all.. like me, did you ask them why they don't vote? To me, major population, can't find suitable candidate, who is uncorrupted, that's why they stay away...
 
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Were you not the same poster who responded with a well thought articulate "blah blah blah" post when I said essentially the same thing in the Big Brother thread my friend?

Why? Did it hurt because an Indian was saying it?

Cheers, Doc

I don't remember ever defending the corruption of Pakistani politicians or feudals. The most I would have said would be that we would take care of it ourselves. Perhaps you can provide a link?

What about the common man in Pakistan? Where does he as the overwhelming majority fit into this complex jigsaw of minority players?

Uncomfortable questions?

Cheers, Doc

The common man in Pakistan is the same as the common man in India or the West. He is too busy with the 9-5 grind and has to settle from a limited set of choices to pick the least evil.

The choices for Pakistanis are (from salman108s post):
http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...ggestions-restore-our-pride-3.html#post445367

Zardari = A Baloch tribe, Feudal to the bone.
Bhutto = Sindhi Feudal
Jatoi = Sindhi Feudal ( at a time Jatoi family had most land in Asia)
Gillani = Feudal from south punjab AND self proclaimed religious leader.
Khakwani = Feudal from south western punjab
Rukun-uddin = South Punjab feudal and self proclaimed blood line holder of saint Rukhundin.
Sharif = Feudals from central punjab.
Balore = Feudal from Peshawar.

I was hoping Imran Khan, with his charisma, would make a good leader but he seems too much in bed with the mullahs. He even denies evolution and seems anti-science, so that's a lost cause, too.
 
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I am not too hung up on democracy. Look at China. Most Chinese really don't care who runs the country as long as the economy continues to prosper. I think most Pakistanis would gladly trade democracy for economic prosperity.

Especially given our "democratic" choices listed above.
 
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I am not too hung up on democracy. Look at China. Most Chinese really don't care who runs the country as long as the economy continues to prosper. I think most Pakistanis would gladly trade democracy for economic prosperity.

Especially given our "democratic" choices listed above.

So whats your solution

You have identified the problem.

But if you do get rid of democracy.
And adopt a dictatorship or communism

Who will run the country.

and why would that be any different

In the latter 2 systems the gov has more power, than in a democracy. It is even easier to have a corrupt gov in those systems

No matter what system Pakistan has.
what is really needed is good leadership and a people not afraid to voice their opinions.

Democracy is only as good as the people who participate in it.
And gov system is only as good as the people who run it.

So my question is. what is your solution to these problems ?
 
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So whats your solution

You have identified the problem.

But if you do get rid of democracy.
And adopt a dictatorship or communism

Who will run the country.

and why would that be any different

In the latter 2 systems the gov has more power, than in a democracy. It is even easier to have a corrupt gov in those systems

Yes, you can have corruption in any government but I believe -- and I have asbsolutely no military connection -- that a military person is less likely to be corrupt than a politician. Especially in a poor country with lax accountability and abundant opportunities for corruption. The military people are trained and ready to give their life for the country. A military ruler may be misguided about how to help the country but you cannot doubt their intentions.

No matter what system Pakistan has.
what is really needed is good leadership and a people not afraid to voice their opinions.

Democracy is only as good as the people who participate in it.

When elected politicians fail to deliver, ordinary people don't have much recourse without a charismatic leader to rally around. Sporadic protests will eventually die down unless there is coordinated reform movement. Pakistan needs a charismatic reformist and Imran Khan has turned out to be a bitter disappointment.

Also, Pakistan has 30 million people under the feudal yoke. These poor peasants will end up in the zamindar's private jail if they even look the wrong way, never mind protest. This makes it all the more important to have land reforms but, given our menu of political candidates above, that's not going to happen.

And gov system is only as good as the people who run it.

So my question is. what is your solution to these problems ?

I know this is a pipe dream but here's one of the things I suggested in a different thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...ggestions-restore-our-pride-2.html#post444591

- quarterly televised town hall meetings with top local/province/federal elected officials

This might provide some accountability to the government, whatever form it takes.
 
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I don't remember ever defending the corruption of Pakistani politicians or feudals. The most I would have said would be that we would take care of it ourselves. Perhaps you can provide a link?

I'll do one better, I'll re-paste my post here ..... along with your response.

In light of the above posts in this topic, I can only sit back beaming with a I-told-you-so air of vindication, unpalatable as it may be for you.

The process of finding a solution first starts with identifying and then accepting a problem.

Cheers, Doc

My post on the Big Brother thread (have bolded the relevant sections for ease of review for others here):

Pakistan and India have one thing in common ..... they have both spent the last 62 years concentrating on India.

The one big difference between India and Pakistan these past 62 years has been Democracy ...... and the fear of accountability at regular guaranteed intervals it instils in the incumbent leadership.

Simply put, the common Pakistani has never been able to make a difference for his country, one way or the other, the best of intentions notwithstanding. His voice has never counted ...... dramatic visuals of mass uprisings during the SC judges saga notwithstanding.

And since Pakistan has always been ruled by the military hawks with short and infrequent bouts/experiments with what can only be politely termed as uniquely Pakistani "democracy", no one has really cared about the present or the future of the country, in a planned, seamless, incremental manner ..... with one leadership carrying on where the other left off, differences in political ideology notwithstanding. Simply put ..... on core issues, the nation comes first.

But therein lies the paradox ...... the definition of "core" changes depending on which side of the border you belong to.

The army dont need to care, nor are they accountable, coz they are there in spite of public opinion (barring the short honeymoon period all generals enjoy .... not on their own merit, but because of the demerits of those that they have replaced!), and their "performance" is not measured in socioeconomic indices but in its ability to raise the spectre of evil akhand bharat on the doorsteps waiting to kill its fathers, husbands, and brothers, and rape its mothers, sisters, and wives.

The "democratically elected" politician on the other hand knows that he is performing a guest act, an "item number" if you will in Bollywood parlance. He knows his shelf life is that of perishable foods at best, and in no way dependent on either his performance in office or public perception as such, cause lets face it, in pakistan, the public are mute, gagged, powerless, disillusioned bystanders, whose opinion has never counted for much in shaping the course of their nation.

The politician knows the army is going to come back, and the question is not if, but when. At the end of his honeymoon period therefore, while the military hawks gather steam and build up the akhand bharat rapist/murderers sprectre once more for the common pakistani to lap up, the "democratically elected" pakistani politician knows that what awaits him is the gallows, or a grenade blast, or a well aimed SAM, or a bullet (or bullets), or a blown up vehicle (SUV, airplane, boat, take your pick), or if divine intervention kicks in, enforced well-financed exile out of pakistan in an alien country.

So our politician busies himself not working for pakistan or pakistanis, but for one pakistani alone, him/herself.

It is true of all people ...... that they get the leadership they deserve.

So if the common pakistani is raped by his army, and stripped by his "elected", what other options does he have? He is between a rock and a hard place ..... and the rock and hard place have been coming closer and grating the life out of the country over the past 6 decades. Who in the past 62 years has built industry? Who has built schools and hospitals? Who has built roads and dams? Who has provided water and electricity? Who has put in place infrastructure and saved for the future? Who has invested in health and education and female and child health and literacy and rights? Who has ramped up a crumbling puppet of a judiciary?

Come on guys!!!!!!!!!! Who the hell has the time to do all of that! All that can wait! We have to get rich first ..... and fast ..... coz there are others waiting in line to take over ...... and hello?!! why do all of that anyway? For who? The people?

Yeah right! This is pakistan guys ...... wake up. The people dont count. They never have! And if they start making too much of a noise (fueled probably by being hungry and poor too long), or they start taking about alien concepts of accountability, justice, peace, then its time to bring in the bogeyman once more ..... the same old faithful we have always relied on like clockwork ..... the same evil incarnate we escaped when we carved out the "Land of the Pure" ............. INDIA/BHARAT/HINDUSTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! toba toba .....

Hungry stomachs of children are forgotten. Religious frenzy is whipped up. War fever dominates the population. Corruption and Incompetence are once more shoved under the carpet. And its business as usual in good ol pakistan. The political chaos continues regardless of whether there is a civilian or a military "government." The people continue to watch from the sidelines, descending deeper down the neverending spiral of disillusionment which sees the cream of the country's youth go off to find a better life in the US or Canada or Australia or the UK.

Those in power continue to fill their coffers from fast diminishing domestic reserves supplemented and propped up by charity from the West and the World Bank, with a few token pennies thrown towards signs of so-called development to appease the public, like some roads, and dams, and beautification of cities where the elite live, while the rest of pakistan stays firmly where it was 2 decades ago. I could go on, but I'm sure that more than us Indians, the pakistanis here realise the hard truth of what I am saying and what they sadly have known for some time now, but righteous nationalistic pride prevents them from admitting.

So who in their right minds would be stupid enough to build bridges, become friends, and accept India as a brother, big, small, step, half, or otherwise?

Grow up Durrani saab, and smell the coffee! Retirement and senility beckon. Make way for the next wave of zealous Generals now. Of course, that is after the current 10% quota is done and dusted.

What pakistan needs today is a Revolution ..... an uprising from within ..... a civil war if you will unlike the directionless fighting it finds itself engulfed in today. It needs to open its eyes, raise its voice, and ask for progress and accountability from its leaders, in place of empty anti-India propaganda.

Pakistan needs to invest in pakistan ..... and not in the destruction of hindustan.


Until the above happens, no amount of brothers, uncles, or fathers are going to help.

Cheers, Doc

Your response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsdoc
{there were some blah blah blah smileys which havent got pasted here}
Cheers, Doc (End Quote)

Say good night, Gracie!
 
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I'll do one better, I'll re-paste my post here ..... along with your response.

Pakistan and India have one thing in common ..... they have both spent the last 62 years concentrating on India.

:blah: :blah:

Your response:

Say good night, Gracie!

I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post after reading that first line of nonsense. "....concentrating on India."

I was responding to that statement.
 
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I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post

Why? Do you like the taste of sand and wind on your posterior so much (am referring to the self-portrait you like attaching to some of your earlier posts)?

Cheers, Doc
 
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Why? Do you like the taste of sand and wind on your posterior so much (am referring to the self-portrait you like attaching to some of your earlier posts)?

Cheers, Doc

:azn: Still smarting over that one, eh?

I don't read every word of every post. I quickly scan over the post to see if it's just a rant, a troll, or something with content. Only in the last case do I read the post carefully.
 
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VSdoc what u r talking? i really do not understand urs problem yet. if u want that we write what multi national donor are doing in india .you will even more shocked and will see what donors are doing in india.basically my point of view is that how we can going to get rid off from these internal and external debt.how we can stop ouself from taking new and fresh loan from these paris club, IMF,WORLD BANK,IDF,ASIAN BANK and ISLAMIC bank.WE JUST WANT A NEW LEGISLATION in pakistan parliment for transparency in loans and reality.
 
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Who in the past 62 years has built industry? Who has built schools and hospitals? Who has built roads and dams? Who has provided water and electricity? Who has put in place infrastructure and saved for the future? Who has invested in health and education and female and child health and literacy and rights? Who has ramped up a crumbling puppet of a judiciary?

Actually, I remember now.
I was also responding to this little rant of yours and the insinuation that India is manufactured threat.

We have never denied that Pakistan has internal problems, but pontifical lectures from across the border don't help.
 
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Actually, I remember now.
I was also responding to this little rant of yours and the insinuation that India is manufactured threat.

We have never denied that Pakistan has internal problems, but pontifical lectures from across the border don't help.

I'm sorry, were you saying something?

Or are you waiting for the storm to pass before you come up for air?

Cheers, Doc
 
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I'm sorry, were you saying something?

Or are you waiting for the storm to pass before you come up for air?

Cheers, Doc

Vsdoc,

Your post included some good points about the failure of Pakistani leadership, military and civilian, and also included the deluded rant of 'deflection on to Hindustan'.

Indians like you have an exaggerated sense of self-importance - you cannot think outside of the fantasy that the world (or in this case Pakistan) revolves around India, and hence the nonsense about 'India and Pakistan have spent the last 62 years concentrating on India'.
 
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