Information Pool & Analysis on Pakistan's AF Aspiration for Su-35 / Su-35S - FLANKER-E

[CBU-105]

The main difference is the reduction of RCS. THIS YOU CAN NOT DO on your lovely Yem kay yaiii.

 

[Sankpal]

again as previous su35 threads it will be go to 25 pages... all the best

 

[araz]

Sir, you have stated pretty much what is happening. Who knows who is playing with whom and personally speaking, I can see that Rafal and US with make in India, would be like final push for bear to join others in this arena. French will never fall for just those 8b we all know and such price is a divergent though in both cases (French or US) we will be benefiting as well. The game is played well. So as I said, let the rival fall for it, we will be having what we need that too in shape of single stone for 2 birds. No matter what others says, our shopping depends on dire need, threat perception and reality and circumstances around and till then, enjoy the coffee. Furthermore, India's deals are going to change the shape of geopolitics as well.

The game is complex however the object is very clear. The Chinese control 2trillion dollars in bonds from the US. They want the US to cede control of the South China Sea to them. They twist US balls by threatening to call on the debt and collapse the US financially. The US needs to preempt that. Far off war with China in its backyard will never be feasible. So it needs a proxy to irk and occupy the Chinese and maintain the pressure on them. The advance towards India and other nations in the far East is towards this end. The smaller nations have expressed their inability to venture into the open against the Chinese. That leaves India. However the Indians I think will play their game of procrastinating while milking the US for marketing and services. That is why Pakistan is in the calculus and I feel they won't let go of Pakistan either and in case of Indians not playing ball they will be courting the Pakistanis again to irk India.
Frankly I don't see this game working out well for the US in the long run. Sooner or later it will have to retreat and the reason is going to be purely financial. China just has to keep flexing their muscles enough for the US to remain engaged and wait for the burden of forces to further weaken the US deficit.
The US offer of 16s manufacturing is a desperate attempt to wow the Indians. If you see it in perspective, it is technology which is still pertinent to be juicy enough for the Indians, yet not juicy enough to compromise US interests. They don't care if the French get screwed in the bargain and frankly the French deserve it as well due to their arrogant behaviour. Whether the Indians take a bite at the bait is something that remains to be seen. How much the Indians can wriggle out of the US will remain a point of discussion for some time and it will be dependant on the desperation of the US to engage India. For the same investment the US MAY WELL provide much more than what the French are offering and the black. 70 will be a good replacement for the outdated TEJAS and try to get others to make sense of the whole project as a learning exercise. Key technological transfers may well happen which may make things juicy enough for the Indians to bite. So a game is a fresh. Let's watch and enjoy.
A

 

[wiseone2]

Bhai.
We dont have the cash in hand or the market for the west to play ball with us. This is why we get dumped every time an end game is in sight. If we had money we ould have played the game a lot differently. However thanks to our corruption and piss poor fiscal management we are perpetually in someone,s laps. We are not bei g allowed to be the leaders of our own destiny.
Somehow to me the JFT seems to be the first step in that direction. If only we can conntinue to progress from there. The economic mess needs to be resolved. But who will do so is anyone's guess.
A


Beta ji.
The main difference is the reduction of RCS. THIS YOU CAN NOT DO on your lovely Yem kay yaiii. When you fly it it lights up like a big flash light. No amount of signature reduction measures will change that. Rest you can change whtever you like.
A


It is not that which is the problem. It is a matter of trust on the Russian side( I say this repeatedly we mauled them adly in Afghanistan and they will not forget it easily), cash on the Pakistani side( although can be overcome but for the first and last factor) and the major bug bear is the traditional delay in supplies from the russian side. The 35 is a beauty but other than monitoring of the sea lanes I dont see a huge benefit in having it.
A

I do not think Russians in general care about Afghanistan. They did not lose the Cold War because of Afghanistan.

 

[araz]

I do not think Russians in general care about Afghanistan. They did not lose the Cold War because of Afghanistan.

I do not think Russians in general care about Afghanistan. They did not lose the Cold War because of Afghanistan.

Well that maybe true but me thinks Russia will not side up with a Muslim country as they have never truely done. There is an interview from 2 KGB agents about Russian involvement in Baluchistan in the 70s and 80s. Needs to be read to see how the Russian polity thinks. They kept their Arab allies with a tight noose round their necks and never supplied them enough armaments to win against Israel. And they openly admitted it. I think they hold a huge grudge against Pakistan and will demonstrate it in case they ever get a chance. The Pakistani policy makers on the other hand would like enough out of the Red bear to be able to stand on their own feet so sanctions/ delays will not matter and the Chinese will help them in this regards.
The only thing which will change Russian perspective is if they get a land route through AfPak on to the warm seas which has been their aim all along. This is the game in Afghanistan which is why the US sits in the barren desolate God forsaken hell hole for them . This is the reason Afghanistan will not be allowed to settle down to contain the red bear.
A

 

[Spectre]

The game is complex however the object is very clear. The Chinese control 2trillion dollars in bonds from the US. They want the US to cede control of the South China Sea to them. They twist US balls by threatening to call on the debt and collapse the US financially. The US needs to preempt that. Far off war with China in its backyard will never be feasible. So it needs a proxy to irk and occupy the Chinese and maintain the pressure on them. The advance towards India and other nations in the far East is towards this end. The smaller nations have expressed their inability to venture into the open against the Chinese. That leaves India. However the Indians I think will play their game of procrastinating while milking the US for marketing and services. That is why Pakistan is in the calculus and I feel they won't let go of Pakistan either and in case of Indians not playing ball they will be courting the Pakistanis again to irk India.
Frankly I don't see this game working out well for the US in the long run. Sooner or later it will have to retreat and the reason is going to be purely financial. China just has to keep flexing their muscles enough for the US to remain engaged and wait for the burden of forces to further weaken the US deficit.
The US offer of 16s manufacturing is a desperate attempt to wow the Indians. If you see it in perspective, it is technology which is still pertinent to be juicy enough for the Indians, yet not juicy enough to compromise US interests. They don't care if the French get screwed in the bargain and frankly the French deserve it as well due to their arrogant behaviour. Whether the Indians take a bite at the bait is something that remains to be seen. How much the Indians can wriggle out of the US will remain a point of discussion for some time and it will be dependant on the desperation of the US to engage India. For the same investment the US MAY WELL provide much more than what the French are offering and the black. 70 will be a good replacement for the outdated TEJAS and try to get others to make sense of the whole project as a learning exercise. Key technological transfers may well happen which may make things juicy enough for the Indians to bite. So a game is a fresh. Let's watch and enjoy.
A

Broader analysis if not true is certainly logical and rational.

However there is technical flaw in your argument.

You view the US debt as Chinese Leverage, it is equally relevant that Chinese Debt is a lever for US. In the situation US defaults - what would happen? Nothing! Because US cannot default as long as Debt is dollar denominated (which it is).

Chinese thus are equally at the mercy of US - it is a game of fairy dust! The underlying is nothing, it is just blind belief in rationality of choices for self interest which is foundation of modern financial system.

Now this situation is not set in stone, there is a way to change the status quo which is a long term project of China. However China is working on it. It involves in my opinion below steps

- Reduce dollar denominated transactional flow by increasing direct cross currency trade. Russia, China, Iran are already doing that

- Diversify the debt basket away from US. Being done

- Delink dollar from oil trade. China and Russia are doing it but ME is non cooperative

- Turn China into complete Market economy - Work in progress.

All in all it is a project spanning half a century to say the least and that is assuming US does not do something about it.

Cheers

 

[TOPGUN]

Why are Indians so worried about it for ? lolz

 

[wiseone2]

The game is complex however the object is very clear. The Chinese control 2trillion dollars in bonds from the US. They want the US to cede control of the South China Sea to them. They twist US balls by threatening to call on the debt and collapse the US financially. The US needs to preempt that. Far off war with China in its backyard will never be feasible. So it needs a proxy to irk and occupy the Chinese and maintain the pressure on them. The advance towards India and other nations in the far East is towards this end. The smaller nations have expressed their inability to venture into the open against the Chinese. That leaves India. However the Indians I think will play their game of procrastinating while milking the US for marketing and services. That is why Pakistan is in the calculus and I feel they won't let go of Pakistan either and in case of Indians not playing ball they will be courting the Pakistanis again to irk India.
Frankly I don't see this game working out well for the US in the long run. Sooner or later it will have to retreat and the reason is going to be purely financial. China just has to keep flexing their muscles enough for the US to remain engaged and wait for the burden of forces to further weaken the US deficit.
The US offer of 16s manufacturing is a desperate attempt to wow the Indians. If you see it in perspective, it is technology which is still pertinent to be juicy enough for the Indians, yet not juicy enough to compromise US interests. They don't care if the French get screwed in the bargain and frankly the French deserve it as well due to their arrogant behaviour. Whether the Indians take a bite at the bait is something that remains to be seen. How much the Indians can wriggle out of the US will remain a point of discussion for some time and it will be dependant on the desperation of the US to engage India. For the same investment the US MAY WELL provide much more than what the French are offering and the black. 70 will be a good replacement for the outdated TEJAS and try to get others to make sense of the whole project as a learning exercise. Key technological transfers may well happen which may make things juicy enough for the Indians to bite. So a game is a fresh. Let's watch and enjoy.
A

China depends on USA for technology and markets

USA is not alone. They represent South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Australia. USA and its allies make for a formidable bloc. Add to it their friends in Europe, Middle East and Latin America.

Dollar is reserve currency. I do not see any quick movement towards alternative currency

Well that maybe true but me thinks Russia will not side up with a Muslim country as they have never truely done. There is an interview from 2 KGB agents about Russian involvement in Baluchistan in the 70s and 80s. Needs to be read to see how the Russian polity thinks. They kept their Arab allies with a tight noose round their necks and never supplied them enough armaments to win against Israel. And they openly admitted it. I think they hold a huge grudge against Pakistan and will demonstrate it in case they ever get a chance. The Pakistani policy makers on the other hand would like enough out of the Red bear to be able to stand on their own feet so sanctions/ delays will not matter and the Chinese will help them in this regards.
The only thing which will change Russian perspective is if they get a land route through AfPak on to the warm seas which has been their aim all along. This is the game in Afghanistan which is why the US sits in the barren desolate God forsaken hell hole for them . This is the reason Afghanistan will not be allowed to settle down to contain the red bear.
A

keeping allies on a leash is something both America and Soviet Union did. they had good reason not to start a nuclear war

 

[ghauri05]

this is not true for jet engines. as an engineer I look at electronic complex products. the role of final assembly and test is diminshing in value.



If you do not have the money to train and maintain on a piece of equipment do not bother buying it. that seems to be the philosophy of PAF. it seems like a sound approach to me.

In Pak,the general approach of our armed forces is..what needs to be done..they do it at all the cost....4.5 gen is a dire need of PAF..n if we start inducting these aircrafts..the supporting system will be automatically developed. And sooner or later, we need another platform, apart from 5th gen(as it will take atleast 7-10 years for PAF),so i think we have wasted so much time. also almost 8-10 years india took on deciding MMRCA..it was a golden opportunity for us to decide another fighter jet.

 

[war&peace]

Frankly I don't see this game working out well for the US in the long run. Sooner or later it will have to retreat and the reason is going to be purely financial. China just has to keep flexing their muscles enough for the US to remain engaged and wait for the burden of forces to further weaken the US deficit.
The US offer of 16s manufacturing is a desperate attempt to wow the Indians. If you see it in perspective, it is technology which is still pertinent to be juicy enough for the Indians, yet not juicy enough to compromise US interests. They don't care if the French get screwed in the bargain and frankly the French deserve it as well due to their arrogant behaviour. Whether the Indians take a bite at the bait is something that remains to be seen. How much the Indians can wriggle out of the US will remain a point of discussion for some time and it will be dependant on the desperation of the US to engage India. For the same investment the US MAY WELL provide much more than what the French are offering and the black. 70 will be a good replacement for the outdated TEJAS and try to get others to make sense of the whole project as a learning exercise. Key technological transfers may well happen which may make things juicy enough for the Indians to bite. So a game is a fresh. Let's watch and enjoy.
A

Sir, this is really interesting scenario with numerous possibilities, so if French get a boot in India by US, then they will be more open to Pakistan and Rafales and other weapons systems can be made available to Pakistan on favourable terms. Though Pakistan will go for Rafale or not is altogether a different issue.

 

[Knight Rider]

Islamabad and Moscow are negotiating a deal on Su-35 and Su-37 jets, Shahab Qadir Khan, deputy director of export promotion services in the Pakistani Defense Export Promotion Organization, told Sputnik:

Pakistan, Russia Representatives Interested in Armenia Military Systems MOSCOW (Sputnik) — "Pakistan is involved in negotiations with Russia on a deal for Su-35 and Su-37. We are in initial stage now," Qadir Khan said. According to Qadir Khan, the Pakistani Defense Ministry's delegation which came to the Army-2016 expo includes technical experts, who assess capabilities of the jets as well as look for Russian helicopters. "We already have Russian transport helicopters Mi-17, but we are looking for other helicraft, and we are looking at assessment of Mi-35 to buy in the near future," Qadir Khan added. The Army-2016 expo, organized by the Russian Defense Ministry, kicked off on Tuesday and is due to last through Sunday. The forum is held in the military-themed Patriot Park in Kubinka near Moscow and in a number of locations in Russia's military districts. The event brings together representatives from the Russian defense industry, research institutes, universities, as well as foreign companies. Over 800 Russian and foreign participants are expected to be involved in some 7,000 exhibitions throughout the week. The forum's participants and guests are attending a number of conferences and round-tables to discuss the future development of military technology.

https://sputniknews.com/military/20160908/1045073021/pakistan-russia-negotiating-fightersu-jets.html

 

[Skull and Bones]

Wow, Su-37 is the most maneuverable aircraft ever. It can maneuver out of your wish list even before you know it.

Congratulations though.

 

[Bashido]

Not again please or make another section for just SU 35

 

[Knight Rider]

Wow, Su-37 is the most maneuverable aircraft ever. It can maneuver out of your wish list even before you know it.

Congratulations though.

This is the latest news. SPUTNIK confirms it. Su-37 is surprising for me also.

Not again please or make another section for just SU 35

Its not about Su-35 but the latest entry Su-37. I have tagged it.

 

[Skull and Bones]

This is the latest news. SPUTNIK confirms it. Su-37 is surprising for me also.

Nothing as Su-37 exists, it was Su-35 S with few advanced subsystems. Similarly, when the Russian pitched in the Indian MRCA competition, nothing like Mig-35 existed, it was Mig-29 OVT.

Su-37 is either a journalism error, or media sensationalism.