Informal Movement Orders have been issued to PA Formations

[Aasimkhan]

If u dont understand english then its not my problem. Where the hell i said that all military orders are officially announced in public ?

It was you who used the word "DECLARATION" Einstein. Now go and look up the meanings of DECLARATION in a good dictionary Mr English expert.
As per Cambridge English Dictionary DECLARATION means "an official, public, usually written statement"

 

[The Accountant]

It was you who used the word "DECLARATION" Einstein. Now go and look up the meanings of DECLARATION in a good dictionary Mr English expert.
As per Cambridge English Dictionary DECLARATION means "an official, public, usually written statement"

Stupid man ... dont quote me again ... just read my statement once again .. it simply state that not officially declared ... where did i said its a allowed or nit allowed ? Why r u inferring meanings which not written anywhere?

Anyways u r just wasting my time so get lost ... its useless to argue with stupids

 

[CHI RULES]

With due respect ur perception lies in pre 90 era .3 decades long military sanctions has turned pak self sufficient .

1: Military reserves consumption ratio btw india n pak is more or less same .
2 : More thn 70 % of military requirement is accomplished by home made pakistan and on contrary more thn 70 % of indian military is imported , 2nd largest importer in world .
3: pakistan military supplier is its neighbour china with road link .but india dont have tht privilage .
4: china pak military alliance is much more advance and secret thn anyone can imagine . Simply u can compare it wid Us israel alliance.
5 : in case of war Pakistan can get hands on any military equipment in quantity without any urgent payments.
6 : oil requirements can be fullfilled by Saudi arabia without any urgent payments and even free , SA is trial and tested in this regard in past .
7 : Pakistan Army is most battle hardened army in world with 100 % success rate in previous operations but indian army is only exercise tested .
8 : 27 feb was test show , only a trailer .
WAS it a conincidence that some of Iaf pilots were screaming of blackout radar and some were complaining of jammed missiles .... pak armed forces are highly sohisticated learned alot in previous 15 yrs ...and intra forces communication is simply exceptional .

9: india even in cold start needs atleast 2-3 days to move to border and its most forward military bases from border are 60-80 km away , and upto that time they move 60 km close pakistan wld know it .
ON THE CONTRARY pakistan army formation needs only few hours to reach border due to their location in big cities near borders .
10 : IAf got 380-400 advanced capable fighter jets ( su 30 , mig 29 , mkrage 2k . Paf got 180-200 . Ratio is 2:1 . Iaf su 30s and mig 21 got high maintainance issue . While pak f16s and jft 17 are easily maintainable .
Iaf pilot availablity ratio is much lesser than paf .

11: Pakistan navy got much more official ans secret missiles to keep IN away from pak waters .

12 : for pakistan almost 1 million armed n trained tribal warriors available as reserves . Pakistan got highest youth rate in world more thn 60 % . Even 2 % out of 60 available for reserve means millions of fighters .

Sir very nice reply, however some points require further elaboration or explanation in following points.

6. Oil requirements can be fulfilled by KSA in case of war, needs to be checked as we should not be confident enough as KSA is having heavy investments in India, so if we are depending on KSA for oil supplies may be it's better to make arrangements with Iran on barter trade basis, and also look for other countries which can supply oil if war prolongs. Perhaps the main and most important point is to make sure supply of fuel in case of war.

9. If war happens then there are major chances that India shall prefer it to keep it limited to valley with some aggressive action on other fronts. due to following reasons. Though Indian Armed forces have bigger volume but they are stretched out through out India due to separatist movements in Mizoram, Nagaland and especially in Kashmir along with full concentration on Chinese border.

10. Indian SU30 in actual do not have availability ratio of more than 60% so if one suppose the availability of SU30 shall be up to 130 or 140 at max, meanwhile considering other jets availability it shall be challenge for IAF to take on PAF as they can't bring on all available jets against PAF as they have to spare many capable squadrons for China.

11. Pakistan Navy shortcoming is their short range/out dated air defense on Naval ships which though can be compensated to some extent by effective use and availability of air cover, which seems to be pretty much better with availability of one squadron of JF17 for naval duties along with jets from Bholari. I am not counting Mirage Vs for air cover as there role is mostly for strike purposes.

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian even if we manage to cut off IOK, which I believe is a fool's erand as they are always expecting this and have forces present that are there for just that, you suggest supplies can be air dropped.

True but if PAF can achieve air superiority that changes.

I think the best military solution to this is to wait it out for a year or two, clean house, upgrade the Army and attack along the IB at the places least expected, engaging in maneuver warfare to encircle. Grab maximum territory while decimating Indian Punjab, haryana and bhoj.
China would simultaneously attack Assam and other border regions, stretching the Indian army.

Now, in such a state, Indias 600k groups in Kashmir suddenly becomes a liability for them.
If we blitz southern punjab, ultimately we can encircle Northern punjab from behind. Giving us a clean route to the doors of Delhi.
As India pulls out troops from Kashmir to save Punjab, our maneuver forces are then in plthe right spot to block them in. At this point Kashmir becomes a boiling kettle for Indian forces, hemed in from all sides.

It is best not to go for any Military Operation, rather than pursue the issue on International forum using experts from different domains since aggressive pursuit with a dedicated team of professionals has not been conducted before on the issue of Kashmir by Pakistan.

Pakistan Military has been continually fighting the wars since start of 2000's. There have been lots of causalities albeit up gradation of weapons/equipment and new formations being raised. The in house war that you are referring to will not be completely over in next 2 years, it would require at least 5 to 10 years to completely secure Baluchistan and get rid of enemy proxies inside cities of Pakistan. Internal security holds more priority than Army crossing the IB.

China is developing in an exponential manner and will not accept a set back of economy through sending forces against India for a war initiated by Pakistan. It will help by leasing or loaning equipment but will not directly take part by putting boots on ground in Kashmir.

The next war, any war that Pakistan fights with an external enemy will most likely be decided through the air war. Its best to upgrade and expand PAF, then Navy and then the Army. PAF is short of 2-4 fighter squadrons (JF-17 only), atleast one more dedicated EW squadron and roughly 2-3 transport squadrons. Remember PAF has to provide air cover for PA and PN as well. Navy needs a dedicated fighter air wing instead of PAF's 8th Squadron with just 12 Mirage-V. If Navy itself can secure the air space south and south east of Sindh, it will be a big relief for PAF. Army needs a dedicated AirBorne/AirAssault formation.

As for Armored and mechanised maneuver in Southern Punjab or Sindh, the only logical path is to seize small chunks of lands and defend it till the ends of war. India will not pull troops out of J&K, it will move troops from Eastern borders to reinforce western sector. For PA Ops in J&K, Mountain warfare is itself a hard nut to crack. PA will need to divert all aviation assets to this sector if progress needs to be made.

It's best to avoid war at all costs and work on stabilising economy of Pakistan through industrialisation and inviting investors from all over the world. This depends on internal stabilisation within cities and provinces of Pakistan. A Business Think Tank solely on CPEC project should be raised for generating more projects within CPEC which could in turn give jobs to locals at the minimum very least. Developing Baluchistan into a trade hub and an investors paradise. Upgrading infrastructure and introducing modern systems for transport, business etc including digitising of all Government systems onto computers in Baluchistan.

The LOC will always be kept hot by the enemy, inviting an all out war to cripple the already mangled economy of Pakistan. This trap should be avoided. Pakistani leaders should focus on well being of Pakistanis.

 

[Psychic]

you just solidified my point that war is not the solution, awesome !

Yes, not a conventional one. You missed the entire point. awesome !

And there is nothing we can do about a confrontation/war imposed on us but fight for survival.

 

[Armchair]

It is best not to go for any Military Operation, rather than pursue the issue on International forum using experts from different domains since aggressive pursuit with a dedicated team of professionals has not been conducted before on the issue of Kashmir by Pakistan.

Pakistan Military has been continually fighting the wars since start of 2000's. There have been lots of causalities albeit up gradation of weapons/equipment and new formations being raised. The in house war that you are referring to will not be completely over in next 2 years, it would require at least 5 to 10 years to completely secure Baluchistan and get rid of enemy proxies inside cities of Pakistan. Internal security holds more priority than Army crossing the IB.

China is developing in an exponential manner and will not accept a set back of economy through sending forces against India for a war initiated by Pakistan. It will help by leasing or loaning equipment but will not directly take part by putting boots on ground in Kashmir.

The next war, any war that Pakistan fights with an external enemy will most likely be decided through the air war. Its best to upgrade and expand PAF, then Navy and then the Army. PAF is short of 2-4 fighter squadrons (JF-17 only), atleast one more dedicated EW squadron and roughly 2-3 transport squadrons. Remember PAF has to provide air cover for PA and PN as well. Navy needs a dedicated fighter air wing instead of PAF's 8th Squadron with just 12 Mirage-V. If Navy itself can secure the air space south and south east of Sindh, it will be a big relief for PAF. Army needs a dedicated AirBorne/AirAssault formation.

As for Armored and mechanised maneuver in Southern Punjab or Sindh, the only logical path is to seize small chunks of lands and defend it till the ends of war. India will not pull troops out of J&K, it will move troops from Eastern borders to reinforce western sector. For PA Ops in J&K, Mountain warfare is itself a hard nut to crack. PA will need to divert all aviation assets to this sector if progress needs to be made.

It's best to avoid war at all costs and work on stabilising economy of Pakistan through industrialisation and inviting investors from all over the world. This depends on internal stabilisation within cities and provinces of Pakistan. A Business Think Tank solely on CPEC project should be raised for generating more projects within CPEC which could in turn give jobs to locals at the minimum very least. Developing Baluchistan into a trade hub and an investors paradise. Upgrading infrastructure and introducing modern systems for transport, business etc including digitising of all Government systems onto computers in Baluchistan.

The LOC will always be kept hot by the enemy, inviting an all out war to cripple the already mangled economy of Pakistan. This trap should be avoided. Pakistani leaders should focus on well being of Pakistanis.

The point IK is making is that we are dealing with a Nazi-like ideology. By ignoring them, by doing a Neville Chamberlain, we will only encourage them. In either case, this psychology of racism and supremacy has only one conclusion - war.

This means that even if we take your route and do nothing (banging on international wars will give us nothing meaningful, will not liberate Kashmir or stop India from pursuing a Nazi ideology), if we take your route, India will attempt to seize Azad Kashmir.

So we are back to square one - war with India.

Now, if we are smart, we can choose to find the timing and place for this war that suits us. And if we are unsmart, we can do what the Allies did in the start of WWII and suffer the consequences of that appeasement.

 

[guest9999]

9. If war happens then there are major chances that India shall prefer it to keep it limited to valley with some aggressive action on other fronts. due to following reasons. Though Indian Armed forces have bigger volume but they are stretched out through out India due to separatist movements in Mizoram, Nagaland and especially in Kashmir along with full concentration on Chinese border.

I can tell you that India will move troops from its Northeastern part towards the western border, in any war scenario with Pakistan if necessary. The logic is simple, Pakistan must be defeated now while separatist movements can always be handled later.

The in house war that you are referring to will not be completely over in next 2 years, it would require at least 5 to 10 years to completely secure Baluchistan and get rid of enemy proxies inside cities of Pakistan. Internal security holds more priority than Army crossing the IB.

Unfortunately, Pakistan has failed to stabilize Balochistan for over ten years. Iran which is much more brutal can keep its Sistan province free from separatists, despite having just as many enemies operating on its soil, and has Chabahar operating and connected to transportation grid. Whereas, people have been hearing the pipe dream of Gwadar and China & Central Asian connectivity - all of which has failed to materialize because of inability to stabilize Balochistan and crush separatists movements and also because the government's long-standing tendency to develop one to two provinces while abandoning the rest.

China is developing in an exponential manner and will not accept a set back of economy through sending forces against India for a war initiated by Pakistan. It will help by leasing or loaning equipment but will not directly take part by putting boots on ground in Kashmir.

Agreed, China will never fire a single bullet in defense of Pakistan. They may help North Koreans during war time, but they will abandon Pakistan at its most critical junctions. I have always argued that Pakistan needs to wean itself off this fake "indigenization" drive that is really powered by China and build its own industrial, R&D base. Time will eventually come when China & Pakistan will split and go there own ways, sooner or later.

As for Armored and mechanised maneuver in Southern Punjab or Sindh, the only logical path is to seize small chunks of lands and defend it till the ends of war. India will not pull troops out of J&K, it will move troops from Eastern borders to reinforce western sector. For PA Ops in J&K, Mountain warfare is itself a hard nut to crack. PA will need to divert all aviation assets to this sector if progress needs to be made.

This sounds similar to the repeated strategy of the 1965 & 1971 wars, capture land and hold off until international pressure forces ceasefire. This strategy has not worked and Pakistan needs to realize that international pressure means nothing to larger countries like India, China, US, Russia, or even Israel. International pressure could not stop a banana republic like Myanmar from doing genocide - that's precisely why Modi is preparing for one in Kashmir.

Pakistan needs to completely change its strategy from minimal offensive/defensive to full-out, conquest mode. Don't stop at holding few chunks of land. Go all the way to Delhi. Don't rely on troop numbers to determine feasibility of ground offensives. Go unconventional & asymmetrical route - bombard all Indian air & naval bases within 600 km of the border using overwhelming numbers of Babur cruise missiles numbering in the thousands. Keep softening the targets after days of cruise missile, artillery, MRLS fire - then move forward.

It's best to avoid war at all costs and work on stabilising economy of Pakistan through industrialisation and inviting investors from all over the world. This depends on internal stabilisation within cities and provinces of Pakistan. A Business Think Tank solely on CPEC project should be raised for generating more projects within CPEC which could in turn give jobs to locals at the minimum very least. Developing Baluchistan into a trade hub and an investors paradise. Upgrading infrastructure and introducing modern systems for transport, business etc including digitising of all Government systems onto computers in Baluchistan.

The LOC will always be kept hot by the enemy, inviting an all out war to cripple the already mangled economy of Pakistan. This trap should be avoided. Pakistani leaders should focus on well being of Pakistanis.

Imran Khan is trying all the above you mention, problem is India is not letting this happen. They are not giving Pakistan the slightest chance for peace precisely to prevent a stronger Pakistan. Indians can do this because Musharraf had unilaterally given certain peace overtures to India in early 2000's. This freed up their agencies from defensive operations in their soft underbelly to focus purely & offensively on Pakistan. Pakistan has been paying the price for this for almost 20 years, thousands of dead, hundreds of billions lost in economic damages.

 

[CHI RULES]

After latest intervention by USA perhaps Pakistan's aggressive posture is becoming submissive, one may clearly judge some change from today statements and coming in next few days, more or less though posture of Indian Govt shall be aggressive yet they shall also talk about negotiations soon.

Overall world powers and our so called brotherly countries only try to protect their investments and trade with India. Pakistan always loses game in economy. Believe me when and if any day comes when Pak goes for serious strike on India whole world economy shall be shaken and Kashmir issue will be resolved in short span of time.

Our previous Govt's were blind but many are surprised by stance of current Govt.

 

[Signalian]

if we take your route, India will attempt to seize Azad Kashmir.

So we are back to square one - war with India.

India will not attempt to seize AJK or start a full fledged war. You have to read the Indian Military's mindset. IA doesn't start a war with pakistan unless it has created a mess of the place, like East Pakistan in 1971, and that also it knew that West Pakistan cannot come to the rescue.

Few factors:
1. IA and PA both are proficient in defending, not at attacking. Both do not have capacity or means for divisional level mountain warfare to conduct successful offensive operations, especially north of Kargil.

2. CPEC routes run through AJK from the very start. China will not allow its CPEC route sabotaged.

3. India has created no insurgency in AJK, it has created insurgency in Baluchistan so PA has to divert troops towards south. IA first has to create insurgency in AJK.

4. If AJK is about to fall, Pakistan will use nukes. If IOK is about to fall, India will do the same.