Informal Movement Orders have been issued to PA Formations

[The Accountant]

My own thinking is we are looking at it from the perspective of the wars in the 60s and 70s. With modern day weaponry the devstation will be massive and death toll in thousends if not hundreds of thousands on both side. Sooner or later one side will let loose with the nukes and the it will be a free for all.
The other scenario and I think this is what keeps the respective govtts in check is once you launch a CM or BM, what guarantees are there that it is not nuke tipped. So do you want to wait for the enemy to respond or let go yourself with a massive strike taking out or trying to take out all sources of resistance and response. You can well imagine the reponse and consequent devastation.
A

Agreed, the scenario you are discussing here is the worst and the most probable scenario ...

I am surprised on behavior of security council as apparently they don realize that what Kashmir dispute has a potential of destroying the whole world as we know off.

Apparently it seems like they want this war to happen so that Indian Pakistan and China destroys each other ... I dont know why they think that Europe and USA will remain safe from destruction of Nuclear war ...

 

[araz]

Agreed, the scenario you are discussing here is the worst and the most probable scenario ...

I am surprised on behavior of security council as apparently they don realize that what Kashmir dispute has a potential of destroying the whole world as we know off.

Apparently it seems like they want this war to happen so that Indian Pakistan and China destroys each other ... I dont know why they think that Europe and USA will remain safe from destruction of Nuclear war ...

I have just heard a talk by Orya Maqbool jan and he seems to have a level of understanding of this subject in light of ahadeeth of our Hadi Rasool Allah SAW. It is certainly a good listen if nothing more. I say this as only Allah knows how events will transpire and when.
A

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

Ok guys calm down we took over 18 posts and destroyed 14 bunkers. We are 18km deep in certain areas. I'm not going to share Twitter report but I can tell you this pir forces are reporting that they are near some area called lalpora. Indians have lost control of a regiment up there and are falling back.

 

[The Accountant]

I have just heard a talk by Orya Maqbool jan and he seems to have a level of understanding of this subject in light of ahadeeth of our Hadi Rasool Allah SAW. It is certainly a good listen if nothing more. I say this as only Allah knows how events will transpire and when.
A

I am also a frequent listener of Orya Maqbool Jaan however sometime he gets much carried away by the subject.

Only Allah knows the best. We should be ready for all the possibilities. After 70 years and looking at history of Pakistan there is no doubted we were created side by side with the state of Israel with everything shitty except for powerful defense nuclear weapons and a substantial no. Of people willing to sacrifice their life for Islam.

It is crystal clear that Pakistan has a defined role. Only Allah knows the best

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Ok guys calm down we took over 18 posts and destroyed 14 bunkers. We are 18km deep in certain areas. I'm not going to share Twitter report but I can tell you this pir forces are reporting that they are near some area called lalpora. Indians have lost control of a regiment up there and are falling back.

Lol

 

[Hayreddin]

Its the other way around ... initially Pakistan will gain but as soon as our war reserves starts depleting we will start loosing ... We have much less war inventory in comparison to India ... Plus we dont have local manufacturing which will further put strain ...

Our war reserves of fuel and ammunition are much lower than India which will cost us alot in formal war ... However, if war stretches long enough to enter into Gorilla warfare and on streets than it will definitely turn in favor of Pakistan ... In such a scenario war will not be fought on borders but on streets of both Pakistan and India ... In such a case Pakistan has unlimited supply of people who are willing to give their life for the sake of country and religion in comparison to India and only few thousands of them can rock India to any extent ...

With due respect ur perception lies in pre 90 era .3 decades long military sanctions has turned pak self sufficient .

1: Military reserves consumption ratio btw india n pak is more or less same .
2 : More thn 70 % of military requirement is accomplished by home made pakistan and on contrary more thn 70 % of indian military is imported , 2nd largest importer in world .
3: pakistan military supplier is its neighbour china with road link .but india dont have tht privilage .
4: china pak military alliance is much more advance and secret thn anyone can imagine . Simply u can compare it wid Us israel alliance.
5 : in case of war Pakistan can get hands on any military equipment in quantity without any urgent payments.
6 : oil requirements can be fullfilled by Saudi arabia without any urgent payments and even free , SA is trial and tested in this regard in past .
7 : Pakistan Army is most battle hardened army in world with 100 % success rate in previous operations but indian army is only exercise tested .
8 : 27 feb was test show , only a trailer .
WAS it a conincidence that some of Iaf pilots were screaming of blackout radar and some were complaining of jammed missiles .... pak armed forces are highly sohisticated learned alot in previous 15 yrs ...and intra forces communication is simply exceptional .

9: india even in cold start needs atleast 2-3 days to move to border and its most forward military bases from border are 60-80 km away , and upto that time they move 60 km close pakistan wld know it .
ON THE CONTRARY pakistan army formation needs only few hours to reach border due to their location in big cities near borders .
10 : IAf got 380-400 advanced capable fighter jets ( su 30 , mig 29 , mkrage 2k . Paf got 180-200 . Ratio is 2:1 . Iaf su 30s and mig 21 got high maintainance issue . While pak f16s and jft 17 are easily maintainable .
Iaf pilot availablity ratio is much lesser than paf .

11: Pakistan navy got much more official ans secret missiles to keep IN away from pak waters .

12 : for pakistan almost 1 million armed n trained tribal warriors available as reserves . Pakistan got highest youth rate in world more thn 60 % . Even 2 % out of 60 available for reserve means millions of fighters .

 

[Aasimkhan]

It means that without official declaration ...

you think all military orders are officially declared? my suggestion is if you dont know then dont speak or write about it

 

[truthseeker2010]

10 : IAf got 380-400 advanced capable fighter jets ( su 30 , mig 29 , mkrage 2k . Paf got 180-200 . Ratio is 2:1 . Iaf su 30s and mig 21 got high maintainance issue . While pak f16s and jft 17 are easily maintainable .
Iaf pilot availablity ratio is much lesser than paf .

11: Pakistan navy got much more official ans secret missiles to keep IN away from pak waters.

10:Iaf's only worth fighting force wrt to A2A combat is Su-30 as Mig-29 has engine spooling issue so even as primary interceptor aircraft, it didn't went into action on 27 feb, even though its based closest to kashmir. M2000 and Jags are ground attack aircraft which cannot go without escort and support.
And Yes PAF's MC rate of JF-17 and F-16 is better than IAF.

11: The only real threat to Pak Mil from India will be Brahmos, be it land, air or ground based.

 

[Signalian]

What is non-military solution for Kashmir?

Bheek mangain India se?

The only solution for which Pakistan compromised a lot (four-point formula) was rejected by Indians as soon as they got what they needed(dismantling of militant networks). That too when India was governed by sane people.

So whose fault is it that Civil Govt/GOP is weak and cannot make a defiant stand for Kashmir on International Diplomatic front ? Must be Military's fault.

During WW2, it was agreed that colonies would be freed as soon as the war ends - Atlantic charter

You were talking to the Brits, not chanakyas.
No one is interested in the cries of Kashmiris today. 70 years have gone by, it will take another 50 years to call UNSC meeting and then the issue will be sent to deep freezer for the next 50 years.

During WW1, WW2 and after WW2, whatever timeline you pick, carving Pakistan out was next to impossible. Read a history book Mate. It was Jinnah who endured that Pakistan is carved out, no one was giving Pakistan to muslims in a plate just because of a so called agreement. If the agreement would have been fulfilled, then complete Kashmir would have been a part of Pakistan.

If you have some solution in your mind other than Musharraf formula, diplomatic offensive then kindly share.

Musharraf formula was Military, its next to impossible to take Kashmir militarily and GOP is not doing enough to win accolades on Kashmir on global front. CPEC is where Pakistan should be concerned about, after that securing Baluchistan and then finishing this dreadful WOT. These are crucial internal matters which need attention, Kashmir comes after that.

My own thinking is we are looking at it from the perspective of the wars in the 60s and 70s. With modern day weaponry the devstation will be massive and death toll in thousends if not hundreds of thousands on both side. Sooner or later one side will let loose with the nukes and the it will be a free for all.
The other scenario and I think this is what keeps the respective govtts in check is once you launch a CM or BM, what guarantees are there that it is not nuke tipped. So do you want to wait for the enemy to respond or let go yourself with a massive strike taking out or trying to take out all sources of resistance and response. You can well imagine the reponse and consequent devastation.
A

Militarily; taking pathankot to block land route, taking jammu to form a launching pad for advancing further north and reaching outskirts of Srinagar, demands roughly 80,000 to 90,000 extra troops. With IAF's and IA's heavy fixed and rotary transport, reinforcements will start pouring in even if land routes are blocked. The amount of BSF concentrated inside IOK is enough to keep all supply lines open and intact even if PA troops are dropped behind enemy lines.

 

[Psychic]

So whose fault is it that Civil Govt/GOP is weak and cannot make a defiant stand for Kashmir on International Diplomatic front ?

Even if we had a first class foreign service, the behavior of world powers would have been the same.

You are free to believe otherwise.

During WW1, WW2 and after WW2, whatever timeline you pick, carving Pakistan out was next to impossible. Read a history book Mate. It was Jinnah who endured that Pakistan is carved out, no one was giving Pakistan to muslims in a plate just because of a so called agreement. If the agreement would have been fulfilled, then complete Kashmir would have been a part of Pakistan.

Irrelevant.
British themselves decided to free the colonies, scores of countries became independent during that period
Kashmir cannot be carved out like Pakistan.

You are free to believe that India can be forced to vacate the vale through political struggle. You are free to equate India's colonialism to British colonialism, reality is different.

Musharraf formula was Military, its next to impossible to take Kashmir militarily

Your words, not mine; Read a history book Mate

Musharraf sold out Kashmir, even that didn't work.

" .....let’s look at the proposed compromise. General Musharraf’s four-point formula involves the following. Firstly,demilitarisation or phased withdrawal of troops; secondly,there will be no change of borders of Kashmir. However, people of Jammu and Kashmir will be allowed to move freely across the Line of Control; thirdly,self-governance without independence; and lastly, a joint supervision mechanism in Jammu and Kashmir involving India, Pakistan and Kashmir."
That was four point formula or Musharraf formula. Not sure which formula you were talking about.

India iss pe bhi raazi nahi hua and you talk about some Kashmiri Jinnah talking it out through political struggle.

CPEC is where Pakistan should be concerned about, after that securing Baluchistan and then finishing this dreadful WOT. These are crucial internal matters which need attention, Kashmir comes after that.

I asked for solution.

Pakistan is not going to war, most likely India will impose one.

Jinnah ordered invasion of Kashmir, had his orders been obeyed, the map of Pakistan would've been different. Now, they are well dug in.

Not my words;

Taken from gen(retd) Khalid Lodhi's article:

" .........Heavy induction of fresh troops by India in IOK also has some serious military implications...... Induction of such heavy additional forces poses a direct military threat to Pakistan administered Kashmir and adjoining territories. It gives India clear advantage in troop ratios, giving them the capability to overwhelm some territories, at least temporarily, and then ask the world to arbitrate ( keep in mind Trump’s offer ) , threatening further ingresses, if Pakistan does not acquiesce. I am not suggesting that they will succeed, but the capability is right there. Now, if it is in Indian military scheme of things to initially weaken Freedom Movement and then create a Casus Belli ( excuse to attack ) and nibble small territories ( intentions) of AK, remaining well below Nuclear thresholds, what should be our responses? Can we afford to silently witness or imagine (highly probable) the slaughter of freedom fighters during the present clampdown? Each passing day of our inaction may be costing heavily to the Freedom Movement. Should we wait for the Indians to peacefully complete their Phase One and then turn towards Azad Kashmir at their leisure ? Can we do something to upset their plans or at least upset the timings? Do we have options short of all-out War ? Naturally this cannot be an open discussion and requires the deliberations by those who have the authority and the requisite intelligence gathering capabilities, to crystallise the hypothesis - so we leave the military options open..........."

https://nation.com.pk/15-Aug-2019/kashmir-2019-options-with-pakistan

 

[Signalian]

Even if we had a first class foreign service, the behavior of world powers would have been the same.

You are free to believe otherwise.

Assumption

Irrelevant.
British themselves decided to free the colonies, scores of countries became independent during that period
Kashmir cannot be carved out like Pakistan.

You are free to believe that India can be forced to vacate the vale through political struggle. You are free to equate India's colonialism to British colonialism, reality is different.

If you want to believe that Pakistan was handed over to you in a plate, then you are free to believe what you want

Your words, not mine; Read a history book Mate

Musharraf sold out Kashmir, even that didn't work.

" .....let’s look at the proposed compromise. General Musharraf’s four-point formula involves the following. Firstly,demilitarisation or phased withdrawal of troops; secondly,there will be no change of borders of Kashmir. However, people of Jammu and Kashmir will be allowed to move freely across the Line of Control; thirdly,self-governance without independence; and lastly, a joint supervision mechanism in Jammu and Kashmir involving India, Pakistan and Kashmir."
That was four point formula or Musharraf formula. Not sure which formula you were talking about.

India iss pe bhi raazi nahi hua and you talk about some Kashmiri Jinnah talking it out through political struggle.

Naive to believe that Musharraf wouldn't have opted for a military Ops, you talk about a man whom you have no idea about.

I asked for solution.

Pakistan is not going to war, most likely India will impose one.

Jinnah ordered invasion of Kashmir, had his orders been obeyed, the map of Pakistan would've been different. Now, they are well dug in.

Not my words;

I gave the solution in the first sentence of the last post. There is a turmoil inside Pakistan already, get your priorities right. You easily forgot the war of 1948, how convenient.

 

[Psychic]

Assumption

Yeah;

Those running powerful countries are choosni sucking todlers who don't know a thing about Indian atrocities in Kashmir. They need to be educated by our diplomats.

Fact is realpolitik is ruthless. national interests are the priority.

If you want to believe that Pakistan was handed over to you in a plate, then you are free to believe what you want

I only tried to explain that comparison of Kashmir movement with Pakistan movement is ridiculous.

Naive to believe that Musharraf wouldn't have opted for a military Ops, you talk about a man whom you have no idea about.

Read, read and read.
You are assuming too much. Assuming that I don't know anything and assuming that I am asking for a war which I am not.
Musharraf made huge compromises from dismantling mujahideen network to proposing a solution which turned the LOC into permanent border.

you talk about a man whom you have no idea about

I got a pretty fair idea of what kind of man he was.

Read four point formula. And I quote;
" .....let’s look at the proposed compromise. General Musharraf’s four-point formula involves the following. Firstly,demilitarisation or phased withdrawal of troops; secondly,there will be no change of borders of Kashmir. However, people of Jammu and Kashmir will be allowed to move freely across the Line of Control; thirdly,self-governance without independence; and lastly, a joint supervision mechanism in Jammu and Kashmir involving India, Pakistan and Kashmir."

Salient points of the proposed Kashmir agreement

1. Reducing violence: Controlling cross-LoC movement of militants, an end to the terror support structure, and dismantling terror infrastructure directed towards India
2. Demilitarization: Both sides were to reduce their military footprints, initially by withdrawing troops from civilian areas
3. Self-Governance: Strengthening Article 370 and identical measures of self-governance on both sides of Jammu and Kashmir
4. Elections: Free and fair elections on both sides, open to the scrutiny of international observers and media
5. Defining Units of Kashmir: To address Pakistan’s claim on Gilgit-Baltistan, its gateway to China, it was decided to allow countries to hold administrative control of one or two regions
6. Joint Mechanism: Elected representatives nominated by governments would form a joint body to monitor cross-LoC trade, tour, travel etc
7. Common policies towards development and water resources: A body, along with both governments, would evolve common policies towards water and development issues
8. A monitoring and review process: Foreign ministers of the two countries would meet once a year to review progress. The agreement would come under review after 15 years
9. Treaty of Peace, Security and Friendship: The two countries would sign the treaty after outstanding issues are addressed. It would give them stakes in each other’s economic development

After (1) was implemented by Pakistan hereby squandering the leverage it had in Kashmir, India backed off.

You can continue to suffer while India has a home run in Kashmir due to lack of covert/overt support to freedom fighters.

I gave the solution in the first sentence of the last post. There is a turmoil inside Pakistan already, get your priorities right.

Irrelevant as soon as India carries out Balakot v2.0

You easily forgot the war of 1948, how convenient.

Did I?
Had someone moved their sorry asses and obeyed Jinnah's orders.....

 

[Armchair]

@Signalian even if we manage to cut off IOK, which I believe is a fool's erand as they are always expecting this and have forces present that are there for just that, you suggest supplies can be air dropped.

True but if PAF can achieve air superiority that changes.

I think the best military solution to this is to wait it out for a year or two, clean house, upgrade the Army and attack along the IB at the places least expected, engaging in maneuver warfare to encircle. Grab maximum territory while decimating Indian Punjab, haryana and bhoj.
China would simultaneously attack Assam and other border regions, stretching the Indian army.

Now, in such a state, Indias 600k groups in Kashmir suddenly becomes a liability for them.
If we blitz southern punjab, ultimately we can encircle Northern punjab from behind. Giving us a clean route to the doors of Delhi.
As India pulls out troops from Kashmir to save Punjab, our maneuver forces are then in plthe right spot to block them in. At this point Kashmir becomes a boiling kettle for Indian forces, hemed in from all sides.

 

[The Accountant]

you think all military orders are officially declared? my suggestion is if you dont know then dont speak or write about it

If u dont understand english then its not my problem. Where the hell i said that all military orders are officially announced in public ?

 

[Signalian]

Yeah;

Those running powerful countries are choosni sucking todlers who don't know a thing about Indian atrocities in Kashmir. They need to be educated by our diplomats.

Fact is realpolitik is ruthless. national interests are the priority.

I only tried to explain that comparison of Kashmir movement with Pakistan movement is ridiculous.

Read, read and read.
You are assuming too much. Assuming that I don't know anything and assuming that I am asking for a war which I am not.
Musharraf made huge compromises from dismantling mujahideen network to proposing a solution which turned the LOC into permanent border.

I got a pretty fair idea of what kind of man he was.

Read four point formula. And I quote;
" .....let’s look at the proposed compromise. General Musharraf’s four-point formula involves the following. Firstly,demilitarisation or phased withdrawal of troops; secondly,there will be no change of borders of Kashmir. However, people of Jammu and Kashmir will be allowed to move freely across the Line of Control; thirdly,self-governance without independence; and lastly, a joint supervision mechanism in Jammu and Kashmir involving India, Pakistan and Kashmir."

Salient points of the proposed Kashmir agreement

1. Reducing violence: Controlling cross-LoC movement of militants, an end to the terror support structure, and dismantling terror infrastructure directed towards India
2. Demilitarization: Both sides were to reduce their military footprints, initially by withdrawing troops from civilian areas
3. Self-Governance: Strengthening Article 370 and identical measures of self-governance on both sides of Jammu and Kashmir
4. Elections: Free and fair elections on both sides, open to the scrutiny of international observers and media
5. Defining Units of Kashmir: To address Pakistan’s claim on Gilgit-Baltistan, its gateway to China, it was decided to allow countries to hold administrative control of one or two regions
6. Joint Mechanism: Elected representatives nominated by governments would form a joint body to monitor cross-LoC trade, tour, travel etc
7. Common policies towards development and water resources: A body, along with both governments, would evolve common policies towards water and development issues
8. A monitoring and review process: Foreign ministers of the two countries would meet once a year to review progress. The agreement would come under review after 15 years
9. Treaty of Peace, Security and Friendship: The two countries would sign the treaty after outstanding issues are addressed. It would give them stakes in each other’s economic development

After (1) was implemented by Pakistan hereby squandering the leverage it had in Kashmir, India backed off.

You can continue to suffer while India has a home run in Kashmir due to lack of covert/overt support to freedom fighters.

Irrelevant as soon as India carries out Balakot v2.0


Did I?
Had someone moved their sorry asses and obeyed Jinnah's orders.....

you just solidified my point that war is not the solution, awesome !