Indonesian Navy wants to prolong the operating life of its 6 Van Speijk class Frigates

[Echo_419]

Current situation in Ambalat and SCS needs ready ship. I believe those ships will still be operated until 2025.

Why not order ships surely you have tyr capability

 

[Indos]

Why not order ships surely you have tyr capability

We have already had several new warships like 4 Sigma class corvette and 3 Bung Tomo class corvette. And we have ordered 2 Sigma Class Frigate (under construction at PT PAL), with 2 more frigates will likely be built once those first Sigma Frigate finish. Initial order is actually for 4 Sigma class frigates.

Joko Widodo wants our shipbuilding industry get benefit from our military spending, he has already made some kind of regulation that forbid our ministry and state owned companies to buy ship that can be produced at home. And as PT PAL has already had cooperation with Damen to build Sigma Frigate in Indonesia (until 20 ships), so we need to wait until PT PAL replace those fleet first by its new Sigma, and it means that we still need time before retiring them.

Nope, the news is right, TNI does have a plan to build 150 meter long ship that weight arround 8500 dwt, ask madoka for more detail, but i doubt she have the time now since she's bussy with her boy friend

In my opinion, I dont think that Destroyer type of warship is actually effective in real combat. Maybe light or heavy frigate will be much better and more cost effective @isoo

Even Bung Tomo Class Corvette that we have ( 3) has an armament that similar with Sigma Frigate

Bung Tomo Class Corvette

• 1 x OTO Melara 76 mm
• 2 x DS 30B REMSIG 30mm guns
• 16 x VLS for MBDA Seawolf SAM[5]
• 8 x Exocet MM40 Block II SSM
• 2 x triple BAE Systems 324mm torpedo tubes.

 

[ANMDT]

Just like Sigma class, build a small one first before making a bigger one ...........

If Damen Shipyard started from designing a corvette and ends up with using similar design for frigate, so why not us do similar....? We can start from light frigate into heavy frigate by using similar design. I believe we will use modular system as well.

i also agree on this, also instead of relying on sigma class, indonesia can use her own developed corvette/frigate for 11th-20th sigma class ships.
PT PAL already have experience of building warships , its not about ability to build, its about designing from beginning , integrating electronics , designing in details according to the needs. In this condition, i would say 4 years needed for evaluation of the design , 4 years for construction,testing and delivery ( 3 years in normal, 1 year added as 1st ship)

So we need to think, does it worth to spend 8-9 years on a project with all sources which wont be acquired in high numbers as much as corvettes or frigate. Also there is another matter, the hull design has no value when compared to radar/ CMS /propulsion and E/O ,counter systems on the ship . they should move on simultaneously in these projects rather, is there any effort in indonesia for radar for 150 meters ship, or sonar, or weapon/counter systems and an advanced CMS ?

Still there is a chance to cancel 11th-20th sigma class and asking for coproduction/ a new design which is totally belong to indonesia with all rights , as a Joint project with korea. By this new project ability to design will be gained,and PT PAL can go into any design they desired

We have already had several new warships like 4 Sigma class corvette and 3 Bung Tomo class corvette. And we have ordered 2 Sigma Class Frigate (under construction at PT PAL), with 2 more frigates will likely be built once those first Sigma Frigate finish. Initial order is actually for 4 Sigma class frigates.

Joko Widodo wants our shipbuilding industry get benefit from our military spending, he has already made some kind of regulation that forbid our ministry and state owned companies to buy ship that can be produced at home. And as PT PAL has already had cooperation with Damen to build Sigma Frigate in Indonesia (until 20 ships), so we need to wait until PT PAL replace those fleet first by its new Sigma, and it means that we still need time before retiring them.



In my opinion, I dont think that Destroyer type of warship is actually effective in real combat. Maybe light or heavy frigate will be much better and more cost effective @isoo

Even Bung Tomo Class Corvette that we have ( 3) has an armament that similar with Sigma Frigate

Bung Tomo Class Corvette

• 1 x OTO Melara 76 mm
• 2 x DS 30B REMSIG 30mm guns
• 16 x VLS for MBDA Seawolf SAM[5]
• 8 x Exocet MM40 Block II SSM
• 2 x triple BAE Systems 324mm torpedo tubes.

i dont think destroyers are made for combats, they are more likely to defend , with advanced AAW capability , launching cruise missile and organizing a fleet in attack . They are needed , but directly stepping on them will be a waste. I will give my country as example;

at 1st we build MEKO frigates in here under license , then in a mine hunter ship design we have recruitted our engineers in Germany for designing warship. during that time we have upgraded Oliver hazar perries as a buffer solution to AAW ,finally we have been into milgem class corvette/light frigate , in roles of ASW patrol, gained ability ( 1st ship was a prototype for 2nd , 2nd was for 3 and 4) then upgraded design into frigate, as already gained experience moved into a large frigate. Also we didnt forget about radar, CMS and other critical systems.

But i should note that , corvette was only a prefer to begin with , during those times strategy advisors have considered corvettes will be upcoming backbone of navies in new tech era. It could be possible to begin with frigate also,but a 150 platform is so far to begin.

 

[Indos]

So we need to think, does it worth to spend 8-9 years on a project with all sources which wont be acquired in high numbers as much as corvettes or frigate. Also there is another matter, the hull design has no value when compared to radar/ CMS /propulsion and E/O ,counter systems on the ship . they should move on simultaneously in these projects rather, is there any effort in indonesia for radar for 150 meters ship, or sonar, or weapon/counter systems and an advanced CMS ?

Yup, we have two major state owned company in electronic warfare and two private owned company that has specialty on that area, for Naval warfare it is Infra RCS

Indonesia's company signs export of frigate-used software | Republika Online

REPUBLIKA.CO.ID, BANDUNG - PT Len Industri (Persero), an Indonesian electronic instrument-producing company, has signed a contract for export of software used on warship missile destroyers or frigates for the second time in cooperation with multinational company Thales Netherlands. Currently, Len is the only company in Indonesia that has managed to make a CMS and has installed it in three warships.

The second contract contains the development of STING EO tracker software, MASS Decoy Launcher, and VL-MICA SAM.


Persero means state owned company

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As far as radar and electronic warfare development there are PT LEN/ PT INTI (state owned) and PT Infra RCS (producing LPI radar for several Indonesian warships, including Van Speijk Class frigates), and also there is R&D department in our Armed Force that has able to make Naval ESM system.

 

[pr1v4t33r]

In my opinion, I dont think that Destroyer type of warship is actually effective in real combat. Maybe light or heavy frigate will be much better and more cost effective

PT PAL already have experience of building warships , its not about ability to build, its about designing from beginning , integrating electronics , designing in details according to the needs. In this condition, i would say 4 years needed for evaluation of the design , 4 years for construction,testing and delivery ( 3 years in normal, 1 year added as 1st ship). So we need to think, does it worth to spend 8-9 years on a project with all sources which wont be acquired in high numbers as much as corvettes or frigate.

PKR 10514 (Sigma light frigate/heavy corvette ) project is actually the same project or the continuation of the long overdue plan of National corvette. At the beginning, we want to build en masse Sigma 9113 (91m corvette) as the backbone of the navy,. But after the completion of 4 Sigma 9113 units and evaluating thoroughly their performance, Navy change the plan, arguing they need more firepower so they refine the plan and that is how PKR 10514 born.

So in my opinion, Navy will stick their choice to Sigma 10514 for 105m warship. They will build this type as much as they see fit to modernize corvette/light frigate fleet that currently in service within Indonesian Navy, which is quite many.

As for 150m warship, this is already planned and coordination already made between various institution to realize this plan. I hope they stick to it and strive to realize this goal. This is a long time goal, if we stick to the plan and bring the right industrial expertise (Damen,etc), we can get this warship around 2020.

 

[Indos]

As for 150m warship, this is already planned and coordination already made within various institution to realize this plan. I hope they stick to it and strive to realize this goal. This is a long time goal, if we stick to the plan and bring the right industrial expertise (Damen,etc), we can get this warship around 2020.

If it is a fix plan already, so it can be useful if we can put C-705 land attack version on this one. As we have plan to produce C-705 and also collaborate with China to make new variant of cruise missile starting in 2017. Dont make it half, half and just play a role like other current frigate even though has bigger size and space, why dont t make it as a complete lethal platform for aggressive move to other people's land........

 

[ANMDT]

PKR 10514 (Sigma light frigate/heavy corvette ) project is actually the same project or the continuation of the long overdue plan of National corvette. At the beginning, we want to build en masse Sigma 9113 (91m corvette) as the backbone of the navy,. But after the completion of 4 Sigma 9113 units and evaluating thoroughly their performance, Navy change the plan, arguing they need more firepower so they refine the plan and that is how PKR 10514 born.

So in my opinion, Navy will stick their choice to Sigma 10514 for 105m warship. They will build this type as much as they see fit to modernize corvette/light frigate fleet that currently in service within Indonesian Navy, which is quite many.

As for 150m warship, this is already planned and coordination already made within various institution to realize this plan. I hope they stick to it and strive to realize this goal. This is a long time goal, if we stick to the plan and bring the right industrial expertise (Damen,etc), we can get this warship around 2020.

2020 is so optimitic, 4 years is only for building the 1st ship , plus design will take 4-5 years at least. Such large platforms are not fully operatable when they are in the service,it also takes about 3-5 years to make them full operating . I think 2025 is more optimistic.
To have it in 2020,you should begin to build that ship next year ,if we consider PTPAL is this busy with sigma,and modernizations ,that is not possible. Also i said before,its not only about designing the hull, electronic systems will be integrated, a phased array radar will be designed and integrated. ( with an indigenous PAR , this 150 meter ship makes no sense)
so we can simply say 2025 ,with the best plan.

Let me explain the steps and flow chart of designing a ship, as 1st experience;
1stly, rumours appear, president makes decision , this is delivered to universities.
2nd university makes research, also contacts to other sub contractor for electronics and radar
3rd university delivers the research report to responsible institution , they begin to concept design in lights of report, together with university.
4th design is offered to military , military makes feed back, go to step 3rd.
5th military accepts , design now considered as serious and major design begins,
6th PTPAL handles the construction design , while sub controctors are still in cooperation with PTPAL ,simultaneously to this a major company handles about weapoon systems , and electronics.
7th , ships final design is completed begin to construct.
8th struggle begin to integrate national systems, with the best option ship will go into tests. Performance of ship will be evaluated by military , feedbacks are taken.


@Indos, why PTPAL is only option for naval construction . Isnt there any consideration to make a private company able to build corvette and frigate.?

Yup, we have two major state owned company in electronic warfare and two private owned company that has specialty on that area, for Naval warfare it is Infra RCS

Indonesia's company signs export of frigate-used software | Republika Online

REPUBLIKA.CO.ID, BANDUNG - PT Len Industri (Persero), an Indonesian electronic instrument-producing company, has signed a contract for export of software used on warship missile destroyers or frigates for the second time in cooperation with multinational company Thales Netherlands. Currently, Len is the only company in Indonesia that has managed to make a CMS and has installed it in three warships.

The second contract contains the development of STING EO tracker software, MASS Decoy Launcher, and VL-MICA SAM.


Persero means state owned company

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as radar and electronic warfare development there are PT LEN/ PT INTI (state owned) and PT Infra RCS (producing LPI radar for several Indonesian warships, including Van Speijk Class frigates), and also there is R&D department in our Armed Force that has able to make Naval ESM system.

So when these all companies be together and equip a ship with local systems? Before going to a locally build ship,these systems should be integrated together in existing, or some newly building ship ( such as sigma) ,the old corvette you have shown is good option as well. Still there is doubt if netherland will let for this.

 

[pr1v4t33r]

If it is a fix plan already, so it can be useful if we can put C-705 land attack version on this one. As we have plan to produce C-705 and also collaborate with China to make new variant of cruise missile starting in 2017. Dont make it half, half and just play a role like other current frigate even though has bigger size and space, why dont t make it as a complete lethal platform for aggressive move to other people's land........

Yea, we can go heavy with this platform. Make this ships the REAL destroyer, and claim our "World Class Navy status"

So when these all companies be together and equip a ship with local systems? Before going to a locally build ship,these systems should be integrated together in existing, or some newly building ship ( such as sigma) ,the old corvette you have shown is good option as well. Still there is doubt if netherland will let for this.

They will, in fact our Sigma 10514 will use localy develop CMS from LEN

 

[Indos]

@Indos, why PTPAL is only option for naval construction . Isnt there any consideration to make a private company able to build corvette and frigate.?

Actually we have many private owned shipbuilding. Some have already had contract for building warship like the one building this 112 Meter LST

KRI Teluk Bintuni, made by Indonesian private owned shipbuilder, PT DRU

I believe government prefer to give contract for corvette and frigate project only to two state owned companies which is PT PAL and PT Dok Kodja Bahari because of its easiness to collaborate with several government agency and the ability to pass the technology to other state owned companies, government agency and state universities. Thus make it easy to unite the forces that we have. Beside that, PT PAL has the best human resource and technology as well compare to other shipbuilder.

For example, in aerospace industry, PT Dirgantara is collaborating with government agency (LAPAN) to make planes. LAPAN is collaborating with PT Pindad and BPPT (other government agency) to make rockets and cruise missile. BPPT is collaborating with PT Dirgantara to make drones. So it is more cost effective.

Current news said that Joko Widodo wants to make PT Dok Kodja Bahari as submarine builder also beside PT PAL, but I think it needs some time to realize, at least after 2019 in which our first submarine is plan to finish ( in cooperation with South Korea/ Chang Bogo design )

 

[pr1v4t33r]

Actually we have many private owned shipbuilding. Some have already had contract for building warship like the one building this 112 Meter LST

little correction, 120m

 

[ANMDT]

Actually we have many private owned shipbuilding. Some have already had contract for building warship like the one building this 112 Meter LST

KRI Teluk Bintuni, made by Indonesian private owned shipbuilder, PT DRU

I believe government prefer to give contract for corvette and frigate project only to two state owned companies which is PT PAL and PT Dok Kodja Bahari because of its easiness to collaborate with several government agency and the ability to pass the technology to other state owned companies, government agency and state universities. Thus make it easy to unite the forces that we have. Beside that, PT PAL has the best human resource and technology as well compare to other shipbuilder.

For example, in aerospace industry, PT Dirgantara is collaborating with government agency (LAPAN) to make planes. LAPAN is collaborating with PT Pindad and BPPT (other government agency) to make rockets and cruise missile. BPPT is collaborating with PT Dirgantara to make drones. So it is more cost effective.

Current news said that Joko Widodo wants to make PT Dok Kodja Bahari as submarine builder also beside PT PAL, but I think it needs some time to realize, at least after 2019 in which our first submarine is plan to finish ( in cooperation with South Korea/ Chang Bogo design )

I think it will be good if private shipyards involved into that more, in the case of there is a customer for indonesian platform ,private shipyards will take a place in there. Also,another benefit their staff will be trained in that.

Also the required number of ships will be built faster.

 

[Indos]

So when these all companies be together and equip a ship with local systems? Before going to a locally build ship,these systems should be integrated together in existing, or some newly building ship ( such as sigma) ,the old corvette you have shown is good option as well. Still there is doubt if netherland will let for this.

PT LEN has already had cooperation with Thales for equipping our Sigma Corvette and this current Sigma Frigates with their product ( actually some work/shares at Thales product ).

PT LEN has also installed its CMS into several warship, including Van Speijk Class, and currently equipping our new missile boat with its CMS (total order for missile boat is 32-half will be built by private owned shipbuilder (40 M), other half by PT PAL ( 60 M ) )

PT Infra RCS has installed LPI radar to our Van Speijk Class. And also installed 3 warship with domestic Naval ESM system.

And for the propulsion development, we also have state owned company (PT Nusantara Turbine- PT Dirgantara subsidiary) who is a turbine producer.

I bet you already know that PT Lundin has already got contract to make 4 Stealth Catamaran

 

[ANMDT]

PT LEN has already had cooperation with Thales for equipping our Sigma Corvette and this current Sigma Frigates with their product ( actually some work/shares at Thales product ).

PT LEN has also installed its CMS into several warship, including Van Speijk Class, and currently equipping our new missile boat with its CMS (total order for missile boat is 32-half will be built by private owned shipbuilder (40 M), other half by PT PAL ( 60 M ) )

PT Infra RCS has installed LPI radar to our Van Speijk Class. And also installed 3 warship with domestic Naval ESM system.

And for the propulsion development, we also have state owned company (PT Nusantara Turbine- PT Dirgantara subsidiary) who is a turbine producer.

I bet you already know that PT Lundin has already got contract to make 4 Stealth Catamaran

thanks for information mate