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Indonesia is afraid of China's Military

Well, I have noticed that developing countries are much more brutal towards their fellow developing countries counterparts than developed country towards them. What you said is rather funny but ironically you are right. If these poor fishermen were to sail towards European shores, they will be saved and given asylum. If we were to even dare treating them half as bad as indo then the whole world/UN, international organisations and even some developing countries will all be screaming like there's no tomorrow and accusing us of being racist, inhumane etc. This is something I find rather strange. As the biggest and most influential country in ASEAN, Indonesia ought to lead by example I think. Just my 2 cents

As for your last statement, you can't blame all the fishermen of being aggressive, just because of one or few cases bro. By the at why does Indonesia not also burn Chinese boats? :)

That's the result of leading by example. We used to burn their ship, in the 2'nd term of our ex president Sby around 2009-2014, He stops burning all illegal fisher ship. As payback, the Thai and Viet get aggressive, they start ramming and killing. Even a few cases is a few cases too much, should we stay silent until more of Indonesian blood spill? If it's worth anything, we never deliberately harm or kill them.

The bold part, do you realize Australia did exactly the same thing as we do? How could it racist, inhumane if we capture the illegal fisher, bring it to legal process and burn the boat as punishment. Also did you understand the difference between illegal fisher and asylum seeker? Or will you simply give citizenship to anyone who is 'poor' and doing something criminal in Europe? As people said, charity is start at home, you could start recall them and giving them citizenship
3,200 foreigners deported from UK in crime crackdown - UK - News - London Evening Standard

Next step, another 10.000 criminal in jail that you can give citizenship.
Government 'deporting too few foreign criminals' - BBC News

And you could lead by example with 'target those corrupt officials from these countries who steal from the people/don't give a shit about their people instead of targeting poor fishermen'
Spanish fish barons admit taking illegal catches in UK waters - News - Food and Drink - The Independent

China is smarter, they know a 'loophole', usually they work with Indonesian company, register/reflag their boat as Indonesian boat and use Indonesia worker.
 
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As the biggest and most influential country in ASEAN, Indonesia ought to lead by example I think. Just my 2 cents


Indeed. We have shown our ASEAN counterpart practical way to resolve the annoying illegal fishing problems that have plague ASEAN water for so long. Indonesia already lead by example and show the way, the other can follow. Now, let us blow up all the illegal fishing ships :D.
 
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[WeE="DarkElf, post: 7087095, member: 150128"]Pity that poor defenseless innocent slave............in fact if anything they are quite brutal, on several different reports, they even dare trying to ram our fisherman in our sea. But if you pity them, we can always send any captured 'poor fisherman' as a refugee in your country. Win win for everyone :azn:

Thai Fishermen Kill Indonesian Navy Personnel | International | Tempo.Co :: Indonesian News Portal

Well, I have noticed that developing countries are much more brutal towards their fellow developing countries counterparts than developed country towards them. What you said is rather funny but ironically you are right. If these poor fishermen were to sail towards European shores, they will be saved and given asylum. If we were to even dare treating them half as bad as indo then the whole world/UN, international organisations and even some developing countries will all be screaming like there's no tomorrow and accusing us of being racist, inhumane etc. This is something I find rather strange. As the biggest and most influential country in ASEAN, Indonesia ought to lead by example I think. Just my 2 cents

As for your last statement, you can't blame all the fishermen of being aggressive, just because of one or few cases bro. By the at why does Indonesia not also burn Chinese boats? :)[/QUOTE]

Chinese ship is usually bigger and in better conditions than Vietnamese or Thailand fishing ships, much prefer to confiscate them.
 
Chinese ship is usually bigger and in better conditions than Vietnamese or Thailand fishing ships, much prefer to confiscate them.

Come on man, remember that Indonesia maid that won the case in HK. There's no reason to do this to other countries, if Indonesia really want to make a point, make it with Vietnamese, Chinese or Thailand's coast guard and or navy, make it on a state level, don't do this to defenseless fishermen who are only trying to make a living.

If we get down to it, Indonesia is a net exporter or labor, no reason they should be mistreated and not have rights.
 
:rofl::rofl::rofl: My reply to @Yorozuya has made Viet insecure :lol:.

What? why did you tagged me? Your reply was completely offtopic to my post and to your original post that was I was replying to. lol

And like Jhungary, the only thing I did was lol at your reply and let you carry on.

Whatever your debate with @Viet is, you guys can go ahead and carry on. Both of you have the habit of going off topic and going completely off the rail lol so just leave me out of your debate.

If you would like to have a friendly discussion with me then just open a new thread and tag me there.
 
Come on man, remember that Indonesia maid that won the case in HK. There's no reason to do this to other countries, if Indonesia really want to make a point, make it with Vietnamese, Chinese or Thailand's coast guard and or navy, make it on a state level, don't do this to defenseless fishermen who are only trying to make a living.

If we get down to it, Indonesia is a net exporter or labor, no reason they should be mistreated and not have rights.

they are doing illegal activities within our territory, confiscate their tools or burning them is not much different with burning or confiscating weapons used by armed robber

As my friend had stated, there is no cases about licensed fishing vessels got caught in Indonesia. As long as they follow rules, they can conduct their activities here. Not to mention, the recent crackdown on illegal fishing vessels in Indonesia water has brought to the light the practices of Human slavery conducted by those illegal trespasser
 
Not to mention, the recent crackdown on illegal fishing vessels in Indonesia water has brought to the light the practices of Human slavery conducted by those illegal trespasser

Umm sorry to interrupt your debate. But as a humanist, I have to speak up about this bit. Human slavery in the fishing industry was widely known waaay before the recent Indonesian illegal fishing crack down. Alot of which involves foreigners enslaving poor Indonesian sailors/fishermen. It's just that the Indonesia govt (and other ASEAN govt) turned the blind eye because exporting labourers was needed. This is sickening so please don't pretend that the recent crack down brought to light an important issue like it was not known before. Your govt knew about this slavery issue long ago already.

Here's an article from 2013 based on researches conducted in the 2000s. Note that it says slavery in the fishing industry has been long identified since the mid-1990. Note also that many private human rights organisations and even some govt ministry has approached the countries of concern (govt of the enslaved victims) but no action was taken. And the slavery continue until this day so don't pretend that it's a new discovery brought to light just recently.

ICSF - International Collective in Support of Fishworkers | SAMUDRA | Issue No : 65 | Forced into Slavery

Internationally, New Zealand is regarded as having a world-class fishing industry. Yet, for over three decades, forced labour has been a key element of the New Zealand foreign chartered vessel business model (see box). In early 2011, Indonesian crew aboard two South Korean vessels—Shin Ji and Oyang75 - fishing in New Zealand’s waters walked off their vessels citing physical, psychological, and sexual abuse by their Korean officers as well as the non-payment of wages.

The industrial action taken by these crew members became the flashpoint for a sequence of events that would challenge the governance of New Zealand’s foreign charter vessel fishing sector. Crew members from other South Korean fishing vessels subsequently engaged in industrial action.

The identification of forced labour conditions aboard South Korean vessels fishing in New Zealand’s waters attracted attention from international media, foreign governments, and non-governmental organizations (NGOs). The United States Department of State’s “Trafficking in Persons Report 2011” identified New Zealand as a destination country for forced labour in the fishing industry.

In 2011, 27 foreign trawlers were chartered to fish on behalf of New Zealand quota holders in New Zealand’s exclusive economic zone (EEZ). Twelve of these vessels belonged to South Korean companies.

The 27 vessels were crewed by approximately 2,000 foreign workers, comprising Chinese, Indonesian, Filipino, Ukrainian and Vietnamese nationals. Foreign crew have, in fact, been working on foreign charter vessels in New Zealand waters since 1979, and the events of 2011 were not the first incidence of forced and exploitative labour aboard foreign charter vessels.

In the mid-1990s, accusations were made in Parliament that “what is happening on those ships is nothing short of slavery, and it will continue”. Indeed, over the next 15 years, there were“numerous documented cases of crew members not being paid, being underpaid, having their wages eaten up by agency fees, and being verbally and physically abused”.

Despite efforts introduced in 2006 to address the problem—albeit soft regulation in the form of a Code of Practice—forced labour within the foreign charter vessel sector continued.

We began our research into fishing industry business practices in 2008. In 2009 we identified some unusual features of the foreign charter vessel business model. However, it was not until 2011, when the crew members engaged in industrial action, that we began in-depth research into forced labour practices.

Ongoing research

Our research in this area is ongoing and, in so doing, we respond to the International Transport Workers Federation call to “raise the profile of the human element of these global industries”. To date, we have interviewed around 300 key informants, mostly crew from 12 foreign charter fishing vessels but also industry personnel. The majority were serving crew, but others had returned home to Indonesia. Some were deserters and hiding from authorities.

We discuss below how the crew obtained work aboard South Korean fishing vessels and became victims of forced labour, before describing the slave-like conditions aboard these vessels. We conclude the article by observing that slavery in the fishing industry is a global problem with bio-sustainability and socioeconomic implications for all nations.

The majority of the Indonesian crew working aboard Korean fishing vessels came from the Tegal region in Central Java, an area characterized by low levels of education, high unemployment and poverty. They are recruited through family contacts and other crew, through recruiting brokers, or directly by manning (recruitment) agents who advertise in local newspapers.

In order to secure work, the fishermen are required to pay the manning agent an application fee of between five to 10 mn Indonesian rupiah ($550 to $1100) as well as sign over collateral, which can include land and house titles, education certificates, motorbike titles as well as additional sums of money.

Collateral requirement is expressly prohibited under International Labour Organization (ILO) Conventions 9 and 17, which require the ship owner to pay the agent.

One Jakarta-based manning agent justified the collateral thus: “If the crew run away, Korean agents will claim costs such as air fares from the Indonesian agents and that’s why we need security. It’s hard for us to sell their houses, but with motorbikes they are easy to sell.” Manning agents also used a bargaining system for prime positions aboard certain fishing vessels. Such positions were given to whoever paid the highest fee.

The manning agents used multiple contracts to recruit crew. The three versions of employment contracts—Indonesian, New Zealand and South Korean—were all significantly different. The Indonesia crew were employed under the Indonesian contract, which clearly specified the fishermen’s base salary as between $240 and $500 a month, depending on their qualifications, level of experience and rank. This was well below New Zealand minimum wage entitlements of NZ$15 an hour at 42 hours a week minimum.

The Indonesian contract also detailed the required level of compliance by the crew towards the officers—crew must remain “completely submissive and obedient”. Significantly, the contract also included a clause setting out the crew’s liability if they break the contract even if seeking refuge from abuse. For example, crew would forfeit their retained wages and be subject to fines between $2,000-$10,000. The New Zealand and Korean versions of the contracts, which the crew were unaware of, were used to meet regulatory requirements in the respective countries.

Moreover, the Indonesian and Korean versions of the contract were unknown to New Zealand officials. The majority of crew interviewees had no recollection of signing either the New Zealand and/or Korean versions of the contract, though, in some instances, they did recall signing documents in another language. In other instances, the signatures on the contract were forged.

Wages were paid through manning agents (often a subcontracted network of linked agents based in Korea and Indonesia), each of whom took a deduction for dubious insurance and operational fees. The families did not receive the first three to six months of pay as this was retained by the manning agents as part of their fee.

Agents also retained part of the wages to be paid to the fishermen after completion of their contract—in some instances, the retained portion of the wages may be held for up to two years or not paid at all.

On average, crew worked 16 hours a day, seven days a week for the duration of their one- or two-year contract. One interviewee recounted working a 53-hour shift while others described working long shifts to the point they begged for a break or fell asleep while working. In some instances, crew members deliberately dumped fish overboard in order to reduce the amount of processing so they could take a break. They were regularly required to sign false timesheets, regardless of the hours worked, and they did so out of fear of abuse and blacklisting.

Our findings revealed unrelenting and violent subjugation of Indonesian crews aboard the majority of Korean foreign charter vessels, including inhumane punishments and the beating of crew members by the officers for often unprovoked reasons. “While eating lunch, the bosun put a rice sack over my head and punched the back of my head until I had trouble breathing,” said one interviewee.

One crew member newly arrived aboard the vessel was required, after his shift had finished on deck, to work below deck to help size fish. Untrained, he asked a fellow crew member to explain how to do this. For talking, his mouth was taped over with packing tape by the factory manager. Crew members aboard many South Korean fishing vessels were subject to indecent assaults, unwanted touching and groping as well as incidents of repeated rape.

Aboard one vessel, an Indonesian crew member reported being repeatedly raped by a South Korean officer. When asked why he never complained, he said “no one would listen”. Another crew member suffered the sexual abuse in order to save his friends from the same treatment. He recounted: “I was angry, I was embarrassed but he is the master of the boat and I was powerless”. He returned home before his contract was complete because he could no longer endure the sexual abuse. For breaking his contract, he was fined 15 mn rupiah ($1536) by the manning agent.
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they are doing illegal activities within our territory, confiscate their tools or burning them is not much different with burning or confiscating weapons used by armed robber

As my friend had stated, there is no cases about licensed fishing vessels got caught in Indonesia. As long as they follow rules, they can conduct their activities here. Not to mention, the recent crackdown on illegal fishing vessels in Indonesia water has brought to the light the practices of Human slavery conducted by those illegal trespasser
Look I'm not saying it isn't illegal, just that it's not a decision born out of malice, I been on fishing boats before. It's a tough life, and a risky one, even without the confiscating of the ships.

It's always easy to say, well they should have followed the rules, there are lots of reasons why they couldn't or didn't. Does it justify it? In the eyes of the law, no. We, however are human, all I can say is Indonesia is not a rich country, it cannot be like the US where it can strictly follow the law, as it just doesn't have the resources to do so.

As to human slavery, that should be stopped and investigated anyways. Tiananman forced the CCP to go on the reform path and never look back, that however doesn't justify it.

I'm not comparing it, just saying.
 
Umm sorry to interupt your debate. But as a humanist, I have to speak up about this bit. Human slavery in the fishing industry was widely known way before the recent Indonesian illegal fishing crack down. Alot of which involves foreigner enslaving poor Indonesian sailors/fishermen. It's just that the Indonesia govt (and other ASEAN govt) turned the blind eye because exporting labourers was needed. This is sickening SO please don't pretend that the recent crank down brought to light an important issue. Your govt knew about this slavery issue long ago already.

Here's an article. Note that it says slavery in the fishing industry has been long identified since the mid-1990. Note that many private human rights organisation and even some govt ministry has approached the countries of concern (govt of the enslaved victims) but no action was taken. And the slavery continue until this day so don't pretend that it's a new discovery brought to light.

ICSF - International Collective in Support of Fishworkers | SAMUDRA | Issue No : 65 | Forced into Slavery

Look I'm not saying it isn't illegal, just that it's not a decision born out of malice, I been on fishing boats before. It's a tough life, and a risky one, even without the confiscating of the ships.

It's always easy to say, well they should have followed the rules, there are lots of reasons why they couldn't or didn't. Does it justify it? In the eyes of the law, no. We, however are human, all I can say is Indonesia is not a rich country, it cannot be like the US where it can strictly follow the law, as it just doesn't have the resources to do so.

As to human slavery, that should be stopped and investigated anyways. Tiananman forced the CCP to go on the reform path and never look back, that however doesn't justify it.

I'm not comparing it, just saying.

whatever all of you said, as an Indonesian i feel what my government is the best cause to protect our national resources and much feel obliged to taking their side. Sorry to say, let it be a different between us, and don't take it too much
 
Umm sorry to interupt your debate. But as a humanist, I have to speak up about this bit. Human slavery in the fishing industry was widely known way before the recent Indonesian illegal fishing crack down. Alot of which involves foreigner enslaving poor Indonesian sailors/fishermen. It's just that the Indonesia govt (and other ASEAN govt) turned the blind eye because exporting labourers was needed. This is sickening SO please don't pretend that the recent crank down brought to light an important issue. Your govt knew about this slavery issue long ago already.

Here's an article. Note that it says slavery in the fishing industry has been long identified since the mid-1990. Note that many private human rights organisation and even some govt ministry has approached the countries of concern (govt of the enslaved victims) but no action was taken. And the slavery continue until this day so don't pretend that it's a new discovery brought to light.

ICSF - International Collective in Support of Fishworkers | SAMUDRA | Issue No : 65 | Forced into Slavery


It is ignorance in your part since you can't differentiate and appreciate our NEW Government effort to open the WORLD's eyes and force them to act accordingly toward this dire situation. We can always blame this and that, it's easy, but to really take action, we need courage and determination which has been shown by our NEW Goverment, by our NEW president to tackle this problems as soon as possible.

From the recent crackdown we have uncovered thailand, vietnamese, myanmar and cambodia slavery network that has been for so long utilized to power up their fishing industries. It must be stop, and we must stop this NOW.

What really sickening is people still defending their countries out of blind nationalism when turnout they are actually become source of the the problem. We have to acknowledge that there are problems, so we can accept that there is need to solve the problems. Indonesia will take whatever drastic measure needed to stop this.
 
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It is ignorance in your part since you can't differentiate and appreciate our NEW Government effort to open the WORLD's eyes and force them to act accordingly toward this dire situation. We can always blame this and that, it's easy, but to really take action, we need courage and determination which has been shown by our NEW Goverment, by our NEW president to tackle this problems as soon as possible.

This issue was known long ago. Many private human rights advocate (and even sometime govt representatives) have approached various countries of concern and no actions were taken. Did I ever say the current Indonesian govt was the same govt of the past?

Still, your current govt must have known this issue and the enslavement of Indonesian labourers in the past and present (if they don't, then they must be very incompetent). Yet have they ever spoke about it earlier? The recent crack down managed to caught the attention of foreign media and you guys manage to spin it and make it out that your govt has discovered a new issue and is determined to tackle it ASAP. The reality is probably, the illegal crack down has highlighted something that the Indonesia govt never really cared about but is forced to deal with it now. That's my impression.

Look, if your current govt was truly concerned about the slavery issue, they would have raised this issue earlier to work on it because they already knew about it (again, if they never knew about it, then they must be very incompetent).

From the recent crackdown we have uncovered thailand, vietnamese, myanmar and cambodia slavery network that has been for so long utilized to power up their fishing industries. It must be stop, and we must stop this NOW.

Like I said, this is NOT something new or some kind of problem that was not known before. Foreign govts have raised the issue since the mid-1990. You don't need the recent illegal crack down to realize what was going on. If your current indonesia govt truly didn't know about this issue before the crack down, then they must be VERY incompetent. But I have the feeling that they do know about it and is only forced to deal with it now since the recent media attention. I hope I'm wrong though.


What really sickening is people still defending their countries out of blind nationalism when turnout they are actually become source of the the problem. We have to acknowledge that there is problems, so we can accept that there is need to solve the problems. Indonesia will take whatever drastic measure needed to stop this.

This is nothing to do with nationalism. It's about humanity. I'm just raising the point that this slavery problem was widely known with world leaders, but most ASEAN govt, which include the past Indonesian govt, have long ignored it.
 
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This issue was known long ago. Many private human rights advocate (and even sometime govt representatives) have approached various countries of concern and no actions were taken. Did I ever say the current Indonesian govt was the same govt of the past?

Still, your current govt must have known this issue and the enslavement of Indonesian labourers in the past (if they don't, then they must be very incompetent). Yet have they ever spoke about it earlier? The recent crack down managed to caught the attention of foreign media yet you guys manage to spin it and make it out that your govt has discovered a new issue and is determined to tackle it problem ASAP. The reality is probably, the illegal crack down has highlighted something that the Indonesia govt never really cared about but is forced to deal with it now.

Look, if your current govt was truly concerned about the slavery issue, they would have raised this issue earlier to work on it because they already knew about it (again, if they never knew about it, then they must be very incompetent).



Like I said, this is NOT something new or some kind of problem that was not known before. Foreign govts have raised the issue since the mid-1990. You don't need the illegal crack down to realize what was going on. If your current indonesia truly didn't know about this issue before the crack down, then they must be VERY incompetent. But I have the feeling that they do know about and is only forced to deal with it since the recent media attention.




This is nothing to do with nationalism. It's about humanity. I'm just raising the point that this slavery problem was widely known with world leaders, but most ASEAN govt, which include the past Indonesian govt, have long ignored it.

Bullshit, Vietnam government itself is such a brute toward their objects, their own people. I can dig in a lot of articles about that, can you accept the truth?

A Vietnamese talking about humanity is the biggest bullshit i ever heard

Just like i said, mind your own business and shut your yaps
 
Bullshit, Vietnam government itself is such a brute toward their objects, their own people. I can dig in a lot of articles about that, can you accept the truth?

A Vietnamese talking about humanity is the biggest bullshit i ever heard

Did I ever say Viet Nam did better than Indonesia? I've said many time that the countries of concern (ASEAN govt.) have long ignored this widely known issue. And yes I can accept the truth easily, there is a "Ugly Vietnamese" thread. You are very free to post whatever negative articles you find and paste it there.

And what you are doing in your last sentence is called an ad hominen attack. You are resorting to attacking the speaker instead of the content. If I what I said was not true, then correct them, don't just resort to personal attacks.
 
Did I ever say Viet Nam did better than Indonesia? I've said many time that the countries of concern (ASEAN govt.) have long ignored this widely known issue. And yes I can accept the truth easily, there is a "Ugly Vietnamese" thread. You are very free to post it there.

And what you are doing in your last sentence is called an ad hominen attack. You are resorting to attacking the speaker instead of the content. If I what I said was not true, then correct them, don't just resort to personal attacks.

whatever, mind your own country business and i will keep my distance from you, and honestly i don't like, very-very much don't like Human rights promoter it was my very nature to bashing them
 

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