Indonesia Defence Forum

[DarkElf]

I do not specify the actions that should be taken by Indonesia in order to deal with Papuan rebels, i just took an example from the actions that Indonesia finally took which ended the long lasted GAM movement. But if you ask me what is the alternative,,, well, systematic famine and covert man made disaster could be a start, after all such cases already happened so we don't have to work it too hard to make them look like natural disasters.

When the people of papua gather a big masses and start to make the situation worst, there you have your reason to send thousands of soldiers. We don't have to bother about being accussed of HAM infringement. Because we send them "peace" along with the march of our soldiers.



Unlike Terrorists that attack specific targets in order to spread their messages and demands which don't involve giving away landmass of a country, Separatism is more than that. Their demand is sovereignity, their goal is not to hurt certain people, but to hurt the country they are combatting. And what is more hurting to a country other than having its infrastructure destroyed, its people scared, its economy stumbled? Giving them more infrastructures more than it should be before having them surrendered is like giving facilities to a bunch of vandals, to be destroyed over and over again.

Now if we are talking about bringing tons of infrastructure to a separatist's territories in order to win their people's heart and mind, we have done that already in East Timor and the question is, why am I not seeing our flag in East Timor besides the one above our embassy building in Dili?

Problem with East Timor, the history is dispute, our school book history said that they invited us and we came peacefully to annex them. But outside history it's said 1/3 of East Timor population die when we come. IF the outside history is true, how can they easily forgive us in 20-30 years just because we build some road for them? Considering how many coverup in our formal history i tend to believe there's grain of truth in outside view.....

As long as the imbalance between Java (Jakarta) vs non Java development still ongoing, prepare for more talk about separatism. Another province in Sumatra already talk about Independence because of how little income they can retain in their province, they need to transfer most of their income to Central Government. It's ironic when Jakarta can talk about Giant Sea Wall paid by APBN at the cost 300 trilyun rupiah while other rich province in Sumatra, Kalimantan, Sulawesi still have trouble getting steady electricity.

How many more province need to openly rebel and raise separatism issue before finally Central Government understand that Jakarta is not the whole Indonesia.

Imho two biggest Indonesia challenge
1. Income distribution between Java and non Java.
2. Low nationalism, growing Islamist extremist who care more about Islam than Indonesia.

 

[nufix]

Problem with East Timor, the history is dispute, our school book history said that they invited us and we came peacefully to annex them. But outside history it's said 1/3 of East Timor population die when we come. IF the outside history is true, how can they easily forgive us in 20-30 years just because we build some road for them? Considering how many coverup in our formal history i tend to believe there's grain of truth in outside view.....

I am well aware of that, and are you well aware that the history of east timor is actually not so different to West Papua? hundred of thousands of their people were killed since our armies stepped their feet in 1960s, how can they easily forget and forgive us in 20-30 years just because we build some road for them?

As long as the imbalance between Java (Jakarta) vs non Java development still ongoing, prepare for more talk about separatism. Another province in Sumatra already talk about Independence because of how little income they can retain in their province, they need to transfer most of their income to Central Government. It's ironic when Jakarta can talk about Giant Sea Wall paid by APBN at the cost 300 trilyun rupiah while other rich province in Sumatra, Kalimantan, Sulawesi still have trouble getting steady electricity.

development costs time and money, but I, as a sumatran, have seen better development for Sumatra than, say 10-20 years ago, Sumatra is getting their high speed motorway built in some of its provinces, better airport than those in Java. It is still slow, but efforts hava been made.

But if you are not so sure about what I say, and still want to say that the development is still focused on Java only well here I give some enlightment. You may download the PDF

How many more province need to openly rebel and raise separatism issue before finally Central Government understand that Jakarta is not the whole Indonesia.

Talk about secession always exist no matter how wealthy a country or a region is, the question is whether the talk has been taken seriously taken into the next stage or not. In the province where I came from, some jobless people organization have always been talking about secession, but guess what, their number is very small compared to ordinary job-having people so they are ignored.

Imho two biggest Indonesia challenge

1. Income distribution between Java and non Java.

I agree, and may I hear your solution?

2. Low nationalism, growing Islamist extremist who care more about Islam than Indonesia.

low nationalism, yes, but i don't put too many attention to those islamist extemist, their popularity is low to none. Even none of 5 biggest Islamic party in Indonesia qualified for fielding any candidate in the next election, forget the extreme ones, if they got any party. But still yes that is a threat.

 

[DarkElf]

I am well aware of that, and are you well aware that the history of east timor is actually not so different to West Papua? hundred of thousands of their people were killed since our armies stepped their feet in 1960s, how can they easily forget and forgive us in 20-30 years just because we build some road for them?

So the solution is more killing and more bad blood until some divine intervention ala GAM or west intervention ala East Timor? If we do covert man made disaster and if the truth is get out.....

development costs time and money, but I, as a sumatran, have seen better development for Sumatra than, say 10-20 years ago, Sumatra is getting their high speed motorway built in some of its provinces, better airport than those in Java. It is still slow, but efforts hava been made.

But if you are not so sure about what I say, and still want to say that the development is still focused on Java only well here I give some enlightment. You may download the PDF



Talk about secession always exist no matter how wealthy a country or a region is, the question is whether the talk has been taken seriously taken into the next stage or not. In the province where I came from, some jobless people organization have always been talking about secession, but guess what, their number is very small compared to ordinary job-having people so they are ignored.

Agree, talk of secession always exist even in wealthy country or region. But it's rare for people in wealthy country/ region to do more than talk, risking their wealth and comfort for something as intangible as independence.

The PDF about 2011-2025 project, from quick glimpse finally Central Government give more attention to Sumatra, but not many project in Kalimantan and the rest of East Indonesia.

I grew up in Surabaya, but since i worked i spend 80% of my time outside Java. I admit there's some development in outside Java especially after the fall of Suharto and local autonomy implemented but the gap still very wide. In Java people already talk about monorail, MRT, Giant sea wall, brand new 2'nd airport, new mall every several month, but outside Java even steady electricity still a problem.

Hopefully this time Government also going to attract the necessary worker.

Bit anecdote from personal experience (read it if you want)

Spoiler: test

3-5 years ago, Friday morning in one store at Kupang, one of the employee get sick, the boss bring her to the closest hospital. The (police hospital) doctor said they need to do some surgery on her because using their word 'bekas operasi usus buntunya infeksi', the boss agreed to cover the cost and call her family to sign the agreement.

Friday turn to Saturday night, still no action, wondering what happen, the boss asked the doctor, why they don't start the operation yet? The doctor said, the only anesthetic doctor in Kupang, didn't come to work today, because he fight with some patient yesterday and still angry.

Sunday, the boss asked another hospital (military hospital), apparently the hospital also using the same doctor, so no luck. Finally the boss going to the third hospital, the doctor there decided to give some antibiotic and apparently it's enough to cure the patient......

Seriously 3 government hospital in capital province of 400k people but only 1 anesthetic doctor? No big private hospital yet at that time in Kupang.

How to use spoiler tag in PDF xD

Imho two biggest Indonesia challenge

I agree, and may I hear your solution?

Already plenty study from more famous and educated Indonesian about it, i doubt whatever solution i have will be better than their.

 

[nufix]

So the solution is more killing and more bad blood until some divine intervention ala GAM or west intervention ala East Timor? If we do covert man made disaster and if the truth is get out.....

Not necessarily, my point is about make them suffer of their helpless-ness, regardless how we construct the cause of their suffering. Well the truth will always find its way out, but what matters is how we surpress the effect once the truth got out.

East timor was a big mistake, big follow-up mistake should I say, not to mention that it happened during the fall of Soeharto. Such case is expected, but now it is very different.

Agree, talk of secession always exist even in wealthy country or region. But it's rare for people in wealthy country/ region to do more than talk, risking their wealth and comfort for something intangible as independence.

Mmm, nope. Like I said before, the feeling of the need for independence does not necessarily stand on economic ground or bread like Terrorism. Some of wealthy Indonesian businessmen helped early Indonesian struggle for independence, rich Sultans and Kings were risking their kingdom in order to support the cause of independence, they knew that their power will be stripped if Indonesia won the war, they knew that they could no longer be kings, but they did support Indonesia.

Independence is much more complex than what you think it is, it is all about demanding sovereignity, not demanding some socio-economic betterment.

The PDF about 2011-2025 project, from quick glimpse finally Central Government give more attention to Sumatra, but not many project in Kalimantan and the rest of East Indonesia.

Like I said, it needs time, western hemisphare of Indonesia is much more populated than the rest of eastern Indonesia, thus more projects are expected in order to support the live of much more people.

Oh..c'mon now..Kalimantan is not that few, its project lists ate 3 pages of that PDF.

I grew up in Surabaya, but since i worked i spend 80% of my time outside Java. I admit there's some development in outside Java especially after the fall of Suharto and local autonomy implemented but the gap still very wide. In Java people already talk about monorail, MRT, Giant sea wall, brand new 2'nd airport, new mall every several month, but outside Java even steady electricity still a problem.

rapid industrialization in Sumatra and Kalimantan caused electricity problem, not because the government ignored that. In Riau alone the local government couldn't keep their electricity output up with industry boom. But there are at least 2 new power generators that are being constructed, wait for few 2 years.

anyway, Makassar and Balikpapan, and some of major cities outside Java are in process of preparing their own monorail. What is wrong with them is they are too depended on financing from central government instead of giving those projects to private companies like Jakarta did. Such minta minta mentality should be eliminated first from provincial government.

Already plenty study from more famous and educated Indonesian about it, i doubt whatever solution i have will be better than their.

Well, i'm not expecting yours to be better than theirs, i just wanted to hear your brief explanation.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Indonesia Shops for Submarines
By Yeremia Sukoyo on 10:55 am December 7, 2013.

Kilo Class Submarine.

The Defense Ministry is planning to send a special team to Russia to check on the condition of the Russian-made Kilo Class submarines before deciding to purchase them.

Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro said Indonesia was faced with two options in strengthening its naval fleet, either by procuring used submarines from Russia, or buying new ones from South Korea.

“This is a form of further cooperation between Indonesia and Russia. We will send a team from the navy to see the condition of the submarines,” Purnomo said in his office on Friday.

He said his ministry was still considering the options, adding that every option had its cost consequences.

“We will send a team first to check on the physical condition, to check the first option. If we decide to choose new submarines, it would certainly involve different costs,” Purnomo said.

He said defense at sea was crucial for the country and that the decision to strengthen the submarine fleet was based on recommendations by the Indonesian Navy.

“We have three alkis [archipelagic sea-lane passages]. In the east, the alki is divided into three branches. There are funnels to enter the Indonesian islands. In the south there are five funnels or entries,” he explained.

Purnomo said the waters surrounding Indonesia’s eastern islands were deep, which suits submarine operations.

He said the Defense Ministry was also prioritizing the procurement of submarines with the ability to operate ballistic missiles.

Navy chief Adm. Marsetio said the country currently had two German-made submarines and that it has recently built three new submarines in cooperation with South Korea.

But Marsetio said Indonesia needed more than double that number to adequately protect its waters.

“Ideally we need at least 12 submarines to defend the Indonesian waters. But we will adjust it with the state’s budget,” he said.

Purnomo said the Russian-made submarines were advanced in terms of their guided missile technology and that they could launch missiles from below surface up to 400 kilometers away.

“The submarine is called the Kilo Class. We have two options, which are to purchase used submarines and modify them, or to buy new ones,” he said.

Purnomo denied that the cooperation was related to the intelligence information leaked by former US intelligence contractor Edward Snowden, who received temporary asylum from the Russian government.

“Oh no, it’s not related [with Snowden] because we have explored this cooperation for four years,” he said.

Purnomo said his ministry still had enough funds in its budget to pay for the purchase.

“The remaining budget from the cabinet is still sufficient,” he said.

The Defense Ministry said last year that Indonesia was planning to more than double its submarine fleet by 2020.

Ministry spokesman Brig. Gen. Hartind Asrin said the submarines would be a vital component in the defense of Indonesia’s maritime borders.

“[Our] enemies will fear us when we have them, because they are beneath the surface, invisible,” Hartind said.
Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro says Indonesia has to decide whether to buy used Russian submarines, or new ones from South Korea.  EPA Photo/Bagus Indahono

Indonesia Shops for Submarines - The Jakarta Globe


RI looks to Russia for
submarines with multi-role
missile systems
The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | Headlines | Sat, December 07 2013, 12:25 PM

Looking to Russia: Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro (right) and Navy chief of staff Adm. Marsetio (left) address the media in Jakarta on Friday to discuss the government’s plan to buy three submarines from Russia. (JP/Jerry Adiguna)

Indonesia is in talks with Russia on the purchase of a number of Kilo Class submarines, as the country expands its deterrent capabilities in anticipation of future regional disputes.

Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro said on Friday that a team of officials, led by Navy chief of staff Adm. Marsetio, would head to Russia at the end of this month to initiate a deal and assess the technical capabilities of the arsenal.

“There is a plan for a massive build-up of our submarine fleet,” Purnomo said in a press conference after an hour-long closed-door meeting with Russian Ambassador to Indonesia and ASEAN Mikhail Galuzin.

Purnomo said he could not provide more details as the ministry was still awaiting reports filed by Marsetio regarding his planned visit to Russia. “Further to his report, we can then decide whether to buy new submarines or modernize
used ones.”

According to Marsetio, Indonesia required “at least one submarine to cover each sea choke point” (a strategic narrow point of passage).

He said in total, the country needed a minimum of 12 submarines, as laid out in the Defense Ministry’s Minimum Essential Force strategy.

The ministry refused to detail the allocated budget for the submarines.

Between 2008 and 2013, defense spending has increased by an average 22 percent to Rp 81.5 trillion this year, according to the Finance Ministry. The budget is slated to rise to Rp 83.5 trillion next year.

The planned submarine purchase will be in addition to the three U-209 submarines currently being built by South Korea’s Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (DSME) and state-owned shipyard PT PAL Indonesia.

The three submarines will be delivered between 2015 and 2016, and will add to the existing two Kilo Class submarines procured in 1978 from the former West Germany.

Purnomo said the ministry’s interest in Russian submarines was based on their advanced cruise-missile system, with which they can accurately target an object at a range of 300 to 400 kilometers.

Submarines are known to be effective war machines that can act as a deterrent because of their capacity for stealth.

The ministry is also considering a number of weaponry options to be fitted on the existing submarines, such as procuring the Klub-S missile system, as well as fitting them with the supersonic, anti-ship Yakhont missile.

Indonesia has a long history of operating submarines from the former Soviet Union, now Russia. In 1967, it acquired 12 Whiskey Class submarines from the Soviet Union.

The new submarines may well be housed at a newly established naval base in Palu, Central Sulawesi, of which only 2.8 hectares of its total 13 hectares have so far been developed.

Natural protection against extreme ocean currents is also considered to be a necessary requirement for a submarine base.

The Palu Naval Base will in the future not only serve as a forward base but also a main naval base.

In response to whether the submarines had anything to do with the current spat with Australia, Purnomo diplomatically said: “We never mentioned in our defense white paper that there will be any threat from the South [namely, Australia]”.

The government recently suspended its cooperation with Australia in the areas of military and defense, joint-patrols against people smuggling, as well as intelligence and information sharing, resulting in the two nations’ relations plunging to their lowest level since the late 1990s.

The souring of relations was triggered last month by allegations that Australia’s intelligence agency had eavesdropped on President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, his wife and Cabinet ministers in 2009.

RI looks to Russia for submarines with multi-role missile systems | The Jakarta Post

 

[DarkElf]

Not necessarily, my point is about make them suffer of their helpless-ness, regardless how we construct the cause of their suffering. Well the truth will always find its way out, but what matters is how we surpress the effect once the truth got out.

East timor was a big mistake, big follow-up mistake should I say, not to mention that it happened during the fall of Soeharto. Such case is expected, but now it is very different.




Mmm, nope. Like I said before, the feeling of the need for independence does not necessarily stand on economic ground or bread like Terrorism. Some of wealthy Indonesian businessmen helped early Indonesian struggle for independence, rich Sultans and Kings were risking their kingdom in order to support the cause of independence, they knew that their power will be stripped if Indonesia won the war, they knew that they could no longer be kings, but they did support Indonesia.

Independence is much more complex than what you think it is, it is all about demanding sovereignity, not demanding some socio-economic betterment.

Imo the situation is difference back then. The independence movement have real chance to success. Either they help Indonesia struggle or they are getting swept anyway when Indonesia get their independence. Beside who know how many of them choose to help Indonesia only, Netherland only or playing safe by helping both side?

Real question, did they know their power will be totally stripped or they expect that they get some kind of governorship or maybe federal indonesia where they retain some of their power?

Like I said, it needs time, western hemisphare of Indonesia is much more populated than the rest of eastern Indonesia, thus more projects are expected in order to support the live of much more people.

Oh..c'mon now..Kalimantan is not that few, its project lists ate 3 pages of that PDF.



rapid industrialization in Sumatra and Kalimantan caused electricity problem, not because the government ignored that. In Riau alone the local government couldn't keep their electricity output up with industry boom. But there are at least 2 new power generators that are being constructed, wait for few 2 years.

anyway, Makassar and Balikpapan, and some of major cities outside Java are in process of preparing their own monorail. What is wrong with them is they are too depended on financing from central government instead of giving those projects to private companies like Jakarta did. Such minta minta mentality should be eliminated first from provincial government.





Well, i'm not expecting yours to be better than theirs, i just wanted to hear your brief explanation.

Kalimantan 3 pages, good in list, but if you really count it, i think the value in real money is much lower than Jakarta. 6 inner city road + MRT in Jakarta alone already cost more than majority of Kalimantan project.

Jokowi agrees new financing scheme for MRT project | The Jakarta Post

Jakarta Governor Joko "Jokowi" Widodo says he is likely to accept the new offer from the central government on the cost-sharing scheme for the Jakarta MRT project, of which the Jakarta administration will cover 51 percent of the loan payments.
-snip-
Last month, Jokowi demanded a revision of the financing scheme, pushing the central government to repay more than the 42 percent agreed toward the loan payments . Jokowi said that his administration could not bear to cover 58 percent of the project worth a ¥144 billion (US$ 1.63 billion).
-snip-
Jokowi previously demanded that the central government covered 70 percent of the project.

minta minta mentality? Jakarta MRT is as much as central government project as Jakarta project. Big part of finance is from Japan loan, around 15% directly from Jakarta and Central.

Latest news, because of 'green car' effect on Jakarta traffic jam, Central Government agreed to pay even more, reducing Jakarta burden to silence Jokohok protest.

AFAIK some site said Riau used to received only 1% from their oil money. If from the beginning Riau already can get more, i doubt they will have the electricity problem to begin with.

 

[nufix]

Imo the situation is difference back then. The independence movement have real chance to success. Either they help Indonesia struggle or they are getting swept anyway when Indonesia get their independence. Beside who know how many of them choose to help Indonesia only, Netherland only or playing safe by helping both side?

Really? against England backed Dutch firepower? I don't think so if that was without the help of the ruling classes. Indonesian independence movement was won not only by military to military contacts, but also diplomacy which could be done by educated people. And since Dutch's colonial education system only allowed people from aristocracy families to go to school, the ones that was involved in diplomatic engagements were people from rich ruling families.

False, in the early independence movement, the option was much more like take Netherland's side and keep their throne like it was before, or Indonesian government. The Colonial system allowed local kingdom to retain its power, but since Indonesia is not a colonial country, these educated ruling families should have known that supporting Indonesia means an end to their long lasted hiearchy. I wonder why did they do that if the reason was only bread.

Real question, did they know their power will be totally stripped or they expect that they get some kind of governorship or maybe federal indonesia where they retain some of their power?

The concept of NKRI was already made by Soekarno before declaration of independence was declared, unless they were idiot (which they weren't), they should have known that. Sultan of Siak Kingdom for example, Sultan Syarif Kasim II voluntarily gave away his Kingdom, throne, and wealth to the newly independent Indonesian government right after the proclamation of independence.

What does this tell you? It tells you that these kings knew that supporting Indonesian independence cause means an end to their kingdom.

Kalimantan 3 pages, good in list, but if you really count it, i think the value in real money is much lower than Jakarta. 6 inner city road + MRT in Jakarta alone already cost more than majority of Kalimantan project.

If you value anything from its value rather than its necessity towards the number of population, you will be stuck in your own unsatisfication. Jakarta and greater Jakarta region alone holds greater population than the whole Kalimantan groupped together, that means DKI and Jabotabek will have to support almost 2 times the number of population in Kalimantan.

Infrastructures are built to support and ease the life of the people in the region, the more people a region holds, the more infrastructures a region needs to keep up its sustainability.

Jokowi agrees new financing scheme for MRT project | The Jakarta Post


minta minta mentality? Jakarta MRT is as much as central government project as Jakarta project. Big part of finance is from Japan loan, around 15% directly from Jakarta and Central.

Latest news, because of 'green car' effect on Jakarta traffic jam, Central Government agreed to pay even more, reducing Jakarta burden to silence Jokohok protest.

fair enough

AFAIK some site said Riau used to received only 1% from their oil money. If from the beginning Riau already can get more, i doubt they will have the electricity problem to begin with.

Since i spent much of my childhood in Riau, i can tell you that it has almost nothing to do with oil money, industrial boom in Riau happened since roughly 3 years ago, since Panam region outside of Pekanbaru and outskirt region of Dumai were transformed into industrial zones, before that we enjoyed a sustained electricity for almost a decade since PLTA kotopanjang was built. Before industrial boom, Riau was mostly mining region, its economy was depended on oil and oil mining activities didnt require much electricity from PLN as many of them produced their own electricity, like Chevron's owned Sebanga gas powered power generator.

So we had enough electricity to electrify our cities, until industrial boom forced the local government to build more power generator. Industrial boom means welfare boom, if you have ever been to Riau, some of its "Kecamatan" have malls, compared to other Kecamatan in Java. The demand of electricity was almost out of expectation, and such power cuts are expected until those 2 coal powered power generator are built.

 

[Thunder.sea]

In Papua Case, Indonesia must do the "Both"
with Infrastructure and also Military Operation.
We Must Beheaded OPM and also get "Trust" from Papua Natives People

 

[Thunder.sea]

The city police arrested on Tuesday an Indonesian Military (TNI) soldier who allegedly supplied illegal drugs to a businessman.

Jakarta Police spokesman Sr. Comr. Rikwanto said the soldier, who was referred to by his initials JS, was arrested after Endang Kesumayadi, an executive of the Indonesian Chamber of Commerce and Industry (Kadin), was previously arrested on Monday for using crystal methamphetamine, locally known as shabu-shabu, and revealed that he had got the drugs from JS.

“Endang said JS had given him 1 gram of so-called shabu-shabu yellow ice. We are trying to establish how long the two men have known each other,” he said.

Rikwanto said the police were still questioning JS to get more details on where he obtained the drugs. Endang was being detained at the police’s narcotics detention center, he added.

Soldier arrested for supplying
drugs

Soldier arrested for supplying drugs | The Jakarta Post

 

[DarkElf]

Really? against England backed Dutch firepower? I don't think so if that was without the help of the ruling classes. Indonesian independence movement was won not only by military to military contacts, but also diplomacy which could be done by educated people. And since Dutch's colonial education system only allowed people from aristocracy families to go to school, the ones that was involved in diplomatic engagements were people from rich ruling families.

False, in the early independence movement, the option was much more like take Netherland's side and keep their throne like it was before, or Indonesian government. The Colonial system allowed local kingdom to retain its power, but since Indonesia is not a colonial country, these educated ruling families should have known that supporting Indonesia means an end to their long lasted hiearchy. I wonder why did they do that if the reason was only bread.




The concept of NKRI was already made by Soekarno before declaration of independence was declared, unless they were idiot (which they weren't), they should have known that. Sultan of Siak Kingdom for example, Sultan Syarif Kasim II voluntarily gave away his Kingdom, throne, and wealth to the newly independent Indonesian government right after the proclamation of independence.

What does this tell you? It tells you that these kings knew that supporting Indonesian independence cause means an end to their kingdom.

Fair enough. But like i told you the situation is different. There's huge difference between Indonesia independence movement from colonial power with separatist movement from recognized country. Even kurdish don't dare to declare independence yet from Iraq. If we played smart, nice, and fair from the start, good chance we already have no problem of this kind anymore.

If you value anything from its value rather than its necessity towards the number of population, you will be stuck in your own unsatisfication. Jakarta and greater Jakarta region alone holds greater population than the whole Kalimantan groupped together, that means DKI and Jabotabek will have to support almost 2 times the number of population in Kalimantan.

Infrastructures are built to support and ease the life of the people in the region, the more people a region holds, the more infrastructures a region needs to keep up its sustainability.

This is going to be chicken and egg problem. Jakarta area have more people, true, but does it justify starving the rest of Indonesia to feed them? Also because much of the funding happen in there obviously people going to there to get better living, so Jakarta going to have even more people. Heck, I have more family in Jakarta and Surabaya than in any other area in Indonesia, most of them not born there but move to there to get better living and enjoy the niceties of life.

This kind of thinking that create the imbalance and the dissatisfaction at the first place, for example Java have 99 million people, Papua area (or insert any other name) only have 1 million, should we plundered the Papua natural resource and give them back 1% only? If they dared to protest, shoot them. If they complain about the lack of development and waste, shoot them. After their natural resource depleted, environment straddle with waste byproduct, some of their people died because they dared to protest, should we keep shooting them until they are no more or until they stop protesting?

Btw personally i have no problem if Indonesia keep pouring everything to Java. My root and home is in Surabaya and most of my family is in Jkt/Sby. It just my view changed a bit after i worked, because my work dictated me to traveled outside of Java. Imho autonomy already help alleviate most of dissatisfaction but still too much focus on Jkt/Java alone.

We already starting to get OOT in this thread, let's end here before we confused more outsider and just agree to disagree. After all we want the same thing only our view is slightly different

 

[MarveL]

Marty calls on China, S.Korea, to restrain

Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa said on Monday that all related parties in the increasingly escalated tensions in the East China Sea territorial dispute should restrain from making moves that could exacerbate the situation.

Marty’s statement came on the heels of South Korea’s announcement that it had extended its air defense zone to partially overlap with a similar zone declared by China two weeks ago

Seoul’s move was seen as s response to Beijing’s unilateral declaration of an air defense identification zone (ADIZ) in an area that includes islands at the heart of a territorial dispute with Japan and South Korea. The move has triggered protests from the two nations, as well as the United States and Australia.

“We have reached the time when all related parties must commit to establishing conducive situation and restrain from actions that could raise uncertainty, even tensions,” Marty told The Jakarta Post at the State Palace after attending an event in commemoration of International Anti-Corruption Day and International Human Rights Day.

“We have many options of modalities on the table. Numerous forums, both formal and informal ones, can be used for communications. Differences of opinion or stances are indeed inevitable but that should not lead to tensions and potential conflicts,” the minister added.

Marty, however, stopped short when asked if Indonesia had bilaterally talked to China,which was believed to be responsible for the initial tensions resulting from its ADIZ.

“God willing, we always communicate … with all parties,” he said.

Announcing the expansion of its own zone to include two territorial islands to the south and a submerged rock also claimed by China, South Korea’s Defense Ministry said the move would not infringe on neighboring countries’ sovereignty.

“We believe this will not significantly impact our relationships with China and with Japan as we try to work for peace and cooperation in Northeast Asia,” Defense Ministry head of policy Jang Hyuk told a briefing as quoted by Reuters.

South Korea called China's Nov. 23 move unacceptable because its new zone included a maritime rock named Ieodo, which Seoul controls, with a research station platform built atop it. China also claims the submerged rock.

There was no immediate reaction from China, although Beijing’s response to news last week that South Korea was reviewing its options on the air defense zone was relatively low key.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said on Friday that any move by South Korea must “accord with international law and norms,” but added, “China is willing to maintain communications with South Korea on the basis of equality and mutual respect.”

Marty calls on China, S. Korea, to restrain | The Jakarta Post

 

[Nike]

Bah! Money should be spent on Social program like the Universal Healthcare Program that will start next year.

Indonesia tries its hand at universal health care | Marketplace.org

Our citizens will need it more than our Armed forces.

just look at UK and USA, the Universal health care program just will drag our Nation to the floor of Ocean debts

Much better to spend the money on infrastructure like railways, roads, ports, airports, electricity etc.

Or give the people jobs opportunity so they can earn their own money for their own health related expenses

 

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Indonesia edges closer to decision on Kilo-class submarines
Jon Grevatt, Jane's Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter, Bangkok - IHS Jane's Defence Industry


Indonesia is moving closer to a decision on whether to purchase Kilo-class submarines from Russia, Indonesian Defence Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro has confirmed.

Speaking at a press conference in Jakarta on 6 December, Yusgiantoro said in comments published by the defence ministry that the Indonesian Navy is set to send a team to evaluate the diesel-electric submarines in line with its target to boost capabilities and secure the country's exclusive economic zone (EEZ).

He added that Indonesia was considering a purchase of either new or refurbished Kilo-class submarines. He did not reveal how many submarines Indonesia wanted to buy from Russia, although officials in Jakarta have previously suggested that the country needs at least six more to provide adequate EEZ protection.

Indonesia edges closer to decision on Kilo-class submarines - IHS Jane's 360

 

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PT Palindo Shipyard in Batam, Riau Islands Province, is set to launch more Light Missile FACs of Klewang Class.
credit: Kenyot@JMP

 

[Fsjal]

PT Palindo Shipyard in Batam, Riau Islands Province, is set two launch more Light Missile FAC of Klewang Class.
credit: Kenyot@JMP

What Anti-Ship Missiles will the FAC use?