Indo-Russian 5th Generation PAK-FA/FGFA is dead

[dadeechi]

S-400 is not declined to India. The negotiations on S-400 and leasing of another nuclear sub is still on. It might take some time but it may happen. You need to understand that mere money cannot buy strategic weapons like S-400. I do not know for what reason you are floating these rumors.

One more thing regarding PAK FA. The IAF was not very excited with PAK FA. Within IAF, there is a large quarter which wants to go with RAFALE in larger numbers.

IAF never were interested in Russian jets, be it MIG-29s, SU-30s or PAK-FA/FGFA. They were always interested in Mirage 2000s and RAFALEs. Their obsession for RAFALE has killed the FGFA project. That is the truth that no one wants to speak.

Chopper Deal On But No Movement On Other Defence Projects During PM Modi's Russia Visit

Chopper Deal On But No Movement On Other Defence Projects During PM Modi's Russia Visit
All India | Written by Vishnu Som | Updated: December 25, 2015 01:01 IST
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Russian President Vladimir Putin (R) and Prime Minister Narendra Modi attend a signing ceremony following their meeting at the Kremlin in Moscow on December 24, 2015. (AFP Photo)
New Delhi: India has signed an agreement with Russia to build Kamov 226 Light Utility helicopters - the first project for a major defence platform under the government's 'Make in India' mission. But it was the only one of an expected clutch of defence projects that was successfully concluded during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's two-day visit to Moscow.

"We have made progress on a number of other defence proposals. These would boost defence manufacturing in India and India's defence readiness with next generation equipment," PM Modi said at a joint media statement he made with Russia's President Vladimir Putin on Thursday.

The projects in the pipeline included the acquisition of a second Akula II class nuclear attack submarine. Despite extended discussions between the two sides for more than a year, the deal for the Indian Navy has not been concluded.

That deal, sources indicate, may have been linked by the Russian side to an agreement for India to acquire three more modified Krivak class frigates, six of which are already in service with the Indian Navy.

The widely expected announcement of five S-400 surface-to-air missile systems, designed to provide parts of India with a shield to defend against incoming ballistic missiles from China or Pakistan, was also not made.

The sale of these five systems, which have also been deployed by Russia recently in Syria, was expected to cost close to five billion dollars.

Though President Putin did speak about India and Russia working together on a jet fighter programme, the Sukhoi stealth fighter programme he was referring to remains a huge question mark.

There is no clarity as yet on how much more New Delhi will have to invest in what was meant to be a joint development programme or when Russia will transfer prototypes of the aircraft to India.

 

[PRC]

There is no clarity as yet on how much more New Delhi will have to invest in what was meant to be a joint development programme or when Russia will transfer prototypes of the aircraft to India.

I never said IAF was interested in a Russian plane And you are talking of something which was relevant ages ago. The Mirage production line which could have been shifted to India was the opportunity which India lost somewhere in in early 2000. In the present context, a large section of IAF wants RAFALE in large numbers. If you see the threat matrix , RAFALE is the only option available to IAF. And No the FGFA project was not killed (although I would use "low interest") by IAF because of RAFALE. The low interest was because of Russia which did not wanted to share the technical know how and more importantly, the plane itself which according to IAF is not as per their expectations.

BTW. "No Movement On Other Defence Projects" does not mean that Russia has declined S-400 or nuclear sub which was the argument you made in previous post. No where it is mentioned or revealed that Russia has declined these to India.

 

[nang2]

if India was willing to buy 200+ U.S made F-35s I think it would be possible

India could buy

140 of the F-35A variant
60 of the F-35 B/C variant for India future aircraft carriers

and to set up India to maintain the F-35 and a weapons package you are looking at about $25 billion dollar deal

Sounds like a good way to bankrupt India.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Russians didn't gurantee the power plant. Our team said , ok we will discuss it later. That's all.

 

[raj76]

Money is no object here and India surely has the requirement. The issue is India would not see a 5th generation fighter for another decade while China may have it in the next 5 years. Also, China is already procuring s-400s from Russia which was declined to India. So India is now in a very precarious position vis-a-vis China in both offensive and defensive systems.

If a war breaks out in the next few years India may not survive as nation.

lol u need a break from all this bro take few days off from this and other def forums u r now getting paranoid for nothing.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

India shouldn't have been so late in ordering F-35's, since they will be at the back of the queue, meaning it might take another decade to get them.

China should be starting mass production of J-20 in 2017, but I don't think India has anything to fear unless they plan to start another Forward Policy.

Might as well focus on your indigenous capabilities while China is still juggling a ton of issues on our plate.

We'll be super busy at least until 2020, which is when our current economic and military reforms will be mostly complete.

 

[dadeechi]

I never said IAF was interested in a Russian plane And you are talking of something which was relevant ages ago. The Mirage production line which could have been shifted to India was the opportunity which India lost somewhere in in early 2000. In the present context, a large section of IAF wants RAFALE in large numbers. If you see the threat matrix , RAFALE is the only option available to IAF. And No the FGFA project was not killed (although I would use "low interest") by IAF because of RAFALE. The low interest was because of Russia which did not wanted to share the technical know how and more importantly, the plane itself which according to IAF is not as per their expectations.
.

I was a big fan of RAFALE too but when you have obsessive idiots in IAF stating that there is no plan B for RAFALEs while the government is negotiating we need to be a realistic here. French were not willing to oblige when PAK-FA/FGFA project was still alive. Do you think they would oblige now? India would have to give both legs, arms and eyes in return to get deal on RAFALEs. The best deal at this time is to go for F-18s to fill up the number until F-35s are available.

BTW. "No Movement On Other Defence Projects" does not mean that Russia has declined S-400 or nuclear sub which was the argument you made in previous post. No where it is mentioned or revealed that Russia has declined these to India.

Let's not pretend dumb here. Do you think Putin would make a statement in the press conference that they are denying s-400s to India?

 

[Jai Bharat]

IAF never were interested in Russian jets, be it MIG-29s, SU-30s or PAK-FA/FGFA. They were always interested in Mirage 2000s and RAFALEs. Their obsession for RAFALE has killed the FGFA project. That is the truth that no one wants to speak.

Political shenanigans in the 90s post-Soviet era forced IAF into buying mostly Russian jets and shelving planned Mirage 2000. This is how IAF ended up in such a MESS with so many different fighters, and HAL with a logistical nightmare, remember even USA struggled to keep so many jets in service, which is why they consolidated into the current F-35/F-22 scenario. Russia had called in all their bets and used all their connections to practically revive their aerospace industry using Indian money. Things are different now, India today is much different than in the 90s, both politically, economically, and technologically. Russia can no longer force India into buying and saving their failing projects. The fact that people can even talk about India procuring the latest American jets are a testament to that fact.

Rafale is real jet that actually exists and is fully operational, while nobody can give any promises on when the PAK FA is going to be completed. Sukhoi has not even started weapons trials yet, and neither have they integrated the new engines. Furthermore, nobody knows when the FGFA would be completed, which is supposed to contain +40 improvements to the aircraft turning it into nearly a whole new aircraft. IAF needs aircraft in large numbers in just 6-7 years, they can't afford for such uncertainties. They have already agreed to large scale orders of Tejas (+100) to make up for some of the shortfall, but they still need a medium sized twin-engine jet.

IAF has not even had access to the plane to ascertain the capabilities of the jet itself, unlike the Rafale. It is silly that anyone thinks that India is going to sign such large contracts under such conditions.

 

[dadeechi]

lol u need a break from all this bro take few days off from this and other def forums u r now getting paranoid for nothing.

Last night I had only 4 hours of sleep eagerly scurrying various defense websites for the positive news on the list of deals that were planned but there was absolutely none . I was initially hopeful at least some of the deals would be done. It was a huge anti climax.

Modi/BJP is hell bent on destroying India. Very disappointed.

 

[PRC]

I was a big fan of RAFALE too but when you have obsessive idiots in IAF stating that there is no plan B for RAFALEs while the government is negotiating we need to be a realistic here. French were not willing to oblige when PAK-FA/FGFA project was still alive. Do you think they would oblige now? India would have to give both legs, arms and eyes in return to get deal on RAFALEs. The best deal at this time is to go for F-18s to fill up the number until F-35s are available.



Let's not pretend dumb here. Do you think Putin would make a statement in the press conference that they are denying s-400s to India?

I was a big fan of RAFALE too but when you have obsessive idiots in IAF stating that there is no plan B for RAFALEs while the government is negotiating we need to be a realistic here. French were not willing to oblige when PAK-FA/FGFA project was still alive. Do you think they would oblige now? India would have to give both legs, arms and eyes in return to get deal on RAFALEs. The best deal at this time is to go for F-18s to fill up the number until F-35s are available.



Let's not pretend dumb here. Do you think Putin would make a statement in the press conference that they are denying s-400s to India?

The first part regarding RAFALE is already answered by Jai Bharat, I will share my opinion on the second part.
No I do not think that Putin is dumb, in fact he is the most shrewd negotiator in the world today. If you ask me, he is one person which I feel is even better than Modi when it comes to negotiations. IF you remember, before Modi started his Russia visit, there were rumors that Russia wanted commitment on PAK FA before making any commitment on S-400. Russia wanted to tie the strategic platforms like S-400 and nuclear subs with PAK FA and this is where India declined. As correctly pointed by Jai Bharat, Russia wanted to bank roll PAK Fa on Indian money without sharing any of the critical technology. The S-400 still might come but obviously there would be more negotiations and I am afraid we might have to shell more moolah to get that. As simple as that.

 

[Globaltracker81]

Last night I had only 4 hours of sleep eagerly scurrying various defense websites for the positive news on the list of deals that were planned but there was absolutely none . I was initially hopeful at least some of the deals would be done. It was a huge anti climax.

Modi/BJP is hell bent on destroying India. Very disappointed.

Actually if you see it, its always good to have a clarity on positions than dilly dallying. Other wise we will end up with another Rafale deal. In this scenario we were continuing to pore money. So already we are late in calling for the cards hopefully we can plan now for road forward.

 

[dadeechi]

That's the most retarded conspiracy I've read all day, get some sleep bro .

There is nothing retarded about it. It is going as per the script.

India hints US it may reconsider stand on three defence foundational pacts

Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi PAK FA

Modi's Russia visit

 

[kaykay]

India will go ahead with Pak-Fa I think as FGFA is not working.

 

[C130]

you know the S-400 isn't the only option.


land based Barak 8 ER or PAAC-4 with David Sling could be a decent substitute

 

[kaykay]

Now that FGFA is dead what are the implications on AMCA and prospects of F-35 Acquisition

India will simply go ahead with Russian variant of Pak-Fa if FGFA doesn't work out. Though Indian media guys are di*ks so don't take them too seriously.... They keep changing their claims every day.

Now that FGFA is dead what are the implications on AMCA and prospects of F-35 Acquisition

India will simply go ahead with Russian variant of Pak-Fa if FGFA doesn't work out. Though Indian media guys are di*ks so don't take them too seriously.... They keep changing their claims every day.