Indo-Pak reality

[Nick81]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Which other self respecting country is blessed with a neighboring country like India and still survived 68 years?

Okay then, keep surviving by peddling yourself; no issues.

Author only presents only one side of scenario but not the other one. What if pakistan ends up exporting more to india and ends up having a substantial stake in Indias stability like china does for US ?
Then pakistan will think twice about going to war/raising the hackles without hurting itself.

That can only happen if there is real democracy in Pakistan. A foreign policy dictated by ISI and Army will not heed either common good or popular demand. With the current democratic deficit in Pakistan, the civilian government has little say in foreign affairs. Did it not hurt Pakistan's economy to launch the earlier wars starting with 1947 to Kargil? Did that stop them?

 

[I.R.A]

What " lost investment" Who is lining up to invest in Pakistan?

Read again the whole comment from start to end.

 

[proud_indian]

 

[Nick81]

Engaging with Pakistan is easier said than done. Which Pakistani on this forum can claim in good conscience that their Civilian government represents them in the talks. Any agreement we sign with Pakistan will be void ab initio because it is not within their mandate to make such agreements. For India, the only practical courses are:

a) to avoid all diplomatic contact altogether;
b) work on the common knowledge that since the Army/ISI runs foreign policy, we need to engage them directly and talk peace with them.

Look, any informal arrangement with Pakistan has no legal validity under international law, but seriously, what is the enforceability of any agreement with a disenfranchised civilian government? All agreements between the countries stand violated in some way or the other, primarily because the proxies who control their policy are themselves not signatories. It is time to remove the mask and engage with the Army/ISI directly.

 

[Sky lord]

Read again the whole comment from start to end.

Are you saying that unless the pipeline goes through Pakistan, you will make sure the investment is lost? Is this a threat to sabotage?

 

[I.R.A]

Are you saying that unless the pipeline goes through Pakistan, you will make sure the investment is lost? Is this a threat to sabotage?

Sabotage what?

 

[Sky lord]

Sabotage what?

Your full statement is below. What do you mean by the seller has to run the pipeline through pakistan or else it is a "lost investment " ? Why is it any business of pakistan, what india buys or from who and how it gets transported ? And how are you convincing the seller that unless the pipeline goes through Pakistan it will be "lost"? Is it a threat to bomb?

Don't engage directly with India and Modi, go after partners of India for these business interests, and sell them the idea of it's either through Pakistan or else its a lost investment. Make them realise how it is more feasible and more beneficial. Modi's advisers are already selling him the idea to lay pipelines through ocean without engaging Pakistan.

 

[war&peace]

Well that might be one solution. But is that the only solution? NO... and is it the right solution ....hmmm maybe or maybe not. Pakistan has many cards and if it plays its cards right, murdoodi is nothing to worry about. First of all, Pakistan needs to understand, whatever the numerical and qualitative difference in conventional weaponry, india cannot afford a war with any country especially a nuclear power - Pakistan. The minute murdoodi's india starts the war....all the economic progress and power image is drained into indian ocean. With burgeoning population and halted or rather reversed economic growth, india will no longer be the darling of the world....We should also know that in the west india is also known as slum and rape capital...., the moment its economy crumbles, world will change the tone especially when they realise their fallacy of counter-balancing China. CPEC is a success if Pakistan itself does not throw it away. With peace returning to Baluchistan and FATA, and success of the operations agains the terrorists and their supporters in Karachi, the stage is being set for peace and resumption of economic activity. We should remember that most of the problems Pakistan faces today are created by the politicians and wrong priorities on the establishments part. Pakistan needs to overhaul its foreign policy and the also the foreign office. Make new ties, find common interests. Let india be out of all equations. The geo.strategic location is a big asset which Pakistan did not exploit fully in terms of economic and strategic relations.

 

[I.R.A]

Your full statement is below. What do you mean by the seller has to run the pipeline through pakistan or else it is a "lost investment " ? Why is it any business of pakistan, what india buys or from who and how it gets transported ? And how are you convincing the seller that unless the pipeline goes through Pakistan it will be "lost"? Is it a threat to bomb?

Why is it any business of your's what and why I say? Get a life that does not involve spreading propaganda.

 

[Sky lord]

Why is it any business of your's what and why I say? Get a life that does not involve spreading propaganda.

If you were just talking to yourself then don't post on a public forum.

 

[Nick81]

Well that might be one solution. But is that the only solution? NO... and is it the right solution ....hmmm maybe or maybe not. Pakistan has many cards and if it plays its cards right, murdoodi is nothing to worry about. First of all, Pakistan needs to understand, whatever the numerical and qualitative difference in conventional weaponry, india cannot afford a war with any country especially a nuclear power - Pakistan. The minute murdoodi's india starts the war....all the economic progress and power image is drained into indian ocean. With burgeoning population and halted or rather reversed economic growth, india will no longer be the darling of the world....We should also know that in the west india is also known as slum and rape capital...., the moment its economy crumbles, world will change the tone especially when they realise their fallacy of counter-balancing China. CPEC is a success if Pakistan itself does not throw it away. With peace returning to Baluchistan and FATA, and success of the operations agains the terrorists and their supporters in Karachi, the stage is being set for peace and resumption of economic activity. We should remember that most of the problems Pakistan faces today are created by the politicians and wrong priorities on the establishments part. Pakistan needs to overhaul its foreign policy and the also the foreign office. Make new ties, find common interests. Let india be out of all equations. The geo.strategic location is a big asset which Pakistan did not exploit fully in terms of economic and strategic relations.

First of all, Pakistan needs to understand, whatever the numerical and qualitative difference in conventional weaponry, india cannot afford a war with any country especially a nuclear power - Pakistan.

Yes, we understand that. I am not one of those Indians who claims that we have a solution to Pakistan's nuclear blackmail; fact is we don't. You can continue to blackmail us over terrorism, we cannot act because as you rightly pointed out, we have much to lose. Pakistan has adopted the psychology of raiders from the North and West who have been in the business of destroying civilizations for a thousand years, you even name your missiles after them. We cannot tangle with a desperate bunch of people with nothing to lose. So keep spawning and incubating terror for as long as your nuclear blackmail lasts. Along the way, also get your hand on as much ill-deserved foreign aid as you can, based on the same nuclear blackmail.

CPEC is a success if Pakistan itself does not throw it away. With peace returning to Baluchistan and FATA, and success of the operations agains the terrorists and their supporters in Karachi, the stage is being set for peace and resumption of economic activity.

And here's where you lose the trick. The same policies that your country has followed in incubating terror on a mass scale as part of asymmetric balance will never allow peace to return to your country. CPEC will remain a stunted plan. You are deluding yourself about the situation in FATA. The only reason there is relative peace there right now is because the Pakistani state has moved out. If it tries to move back in, FATA will burn again. FATA was never under Islamabad's control, nor will it ever be. Same goes for Baluchistan. You can continue to occupy it militarily for as long as you want, but so long as you are not able to replace the entire ethnic Baloch population with Punjabi migrants, Islamabad will never be able to control Baluchistan either. Taliban is run out of Quetta and you can't do a thing about it, stop deluding yourself.

We should remember that most of the problems Pakistan faces today are created by the politicians and wrong priorities on the establishments part.

If you had given democracy a real chance, instead of surrendering yourself to a military dictatorship, your country would not be where it is today. Stop vilifying your civilian leadership. Your problems are caused by your thug ISI/Army combine and its policies of incubating terror.

The geo.strategic location is a big asset which Pakistan did not exploit fully in terms of economic and strategic relations.

A nation of 200 million people has to have some character apart from the desire to rent itself out based on its location. Educate your people, stop spreading terror, stop hating those who don't hate you. That is the way forward. Not selling yourself to US/China/Saudi or whoever bids for you.

Why is it any business of your's what and why I say? Get a life that does not involve spreading propaganda.

Why is it not his or my business if you imply that Pakistan will sabotage pipelines if they don't run through it? It is of direct concern to us as it effects India's economy. If India raises concerns over your CPEC, which apparently will cure all of Pakistan's ills, don't you get worked up about it? Because you treat it as a last-ditch attempt to revive a still-born economy.

 

[FULL_METAL]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Which other self respecting country is blessed with a neighboring country like India and still survived 68 years?

Lol u are literally making us look like a monster while in reality we are peace-loving baniyas

 

[JanjaWeed]

Indo-Pak reality

Moeed Yusuf

INDIA is all over the media again. Prime Minister Modi has irked our nationalist fervour with the Sialkot incident. Officialdom is back in the groove, regularly throwing around words like ‘honour’, ‘dignity’, ‘parity’, etc.

Thankfully, I sense that our decision-makers recognise that while the usual game of pinning Modi down for this (and whenever else he overplays his hand) must be played, this tactical positioning can only get one so far. They are rightly more perturbed about what they feel is Modi’s larger design: to keep Pakistan internally unstable and globally isolated. Equally, they feel the world is deliberately going along despite Modi’s insincerity towards resolving outstanding disputes and his insistence on talking to Pakistan only on India’s terms.

My worry though is that in terms of responses, we are still fixated on outmanoeuvring India in the tactical realm. This is self-defeating, especially if one takes Pakistan’s own analysis of Modi’s policy at face value. If Modi wants to keep Pakistan in the dock, preoccupying us at the tactical level is precisely what he would be aiming for.

To understand this, we first need to establish why Modi is able to maintain a dismissive attitude towards Pakistan and why the world is looking the other way.

Why is Modi able to maintain a dismissive attitude towards us?
An honest analysis on our part should lead us to recognise that India’s expanded manoeuvring space is a function of the growing disparity in strengths between the two countries. It’s statecraft 101: with an internal base that is stronger than ever, India can afford to forego benefits of improved ties with Pakistan, especially if its dismissiveness allows it to keep Kashmir off the table.

Equally, the world’s attitude towards India is driven by a convergence of interest between Delhi and the global powers. India offers the world’s military-industrial complex the single largest market and its economy has locked in Western business and investment interests. Add to this the West’s flawed belief that India will play counterweight to China.

Therefore, if I am Modi and I want to keep Pakistan boxed in, I would want to ensure that my differential with Pakistan grows further; that Pakistan remains the world’s favourite whipping boy; and consequently, I feel no real pressure to negotiate sincerely on disputes with Pakistan.

Modi can best achieve this by keeping Pakistan stuck in its current India-centric security paradigm. To do so, he needs to keep Pakistan’s traditionally heightened threat perception of India intact. If he can keep Pakistan worried about his military’s strength, formations, doctrines and periodic actions such as on the LoC and about his growing ties with Pakistan’s neighbours, he’ll be set.

Pakistan’s resources will remain disproportionally committed to defence and it will be distracted from its more pressing internal needs. India’s economy will keep growing (despite losses associated with broken ties with Pakistan) but Pakistan’s priorities will remain fundamentally warped.

Pakistan’s decision-makers should realise that focusing solely on the tactical game with Modi only plays into his hands. You’ve got to think strategic and find a way to reverse Modi’s two real advantages: power differential; and the world’s support to him.

Pakistan’s only silver bullet solution is creating leverage over India by forging strong economic ties with it. By doing so, you’ll tie Indian and regional economic interests with yours and force India to develop stakes in keeping the Pakistani economy integrated and thus, mainstreamed. Projects like Tapi will make India dependent on transit through Pakistan (India wouldn’t be able to afford instability in areas hosting pipes/transmission lines); allowing overland route to India will mean that its entire trade with Central Asia will be dependent on you; you’ll undercut the competitiveness of Iran’s Chahbahar port; likewise, offering India-held Kashmir transit through your ports will link them intrinsically to you; and by tying CPEC to an east-west corridor involving India, you’ll not only optimise gains but force India to de facto acknowledge your right over Gilgit-Baltistan.

Most importantly, you will be able to break the regional logjam that is holding your economy back. An improved economy will naturally begin to interest the world positively. A stronger economic base will also allow you to maintain robust defence capabilities, but now without being an obvious drag on your economy.

Mind you, this paradigm shift will not prevent you from continuing to play the tactical game, firmly advocating your position on Kashmir, etc. in the interim. That you must to keep your stakes in the game. But the course suggested here will simultaneously begin to move you towards attaining real ‘honour’, ‘dignity’, and ‘parity’, that builds on internal strength rather than hollow sloganeering. This is the only way to compel India to negotiate with Pakistan somewhat evenhandedly.

The writer is a foreign policy expert based in Washington, DC.

Indo-Pak reality - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

& a talk show with Moeed Yusuf to go with the above...

 

[hussain0216]

BULL SHIT

I WILL SAY IT AGAIN

BULL SHIT

let me tell you one thing, **** india

These assessments all aim to do one thing try to push Pakistan into accepting LOC as permanent border, putting the Kashmir issue to bed and sign onto the indian economic path/dream or whatever you want to call it



Pakistan should form its own path
We need to revitalise our economy (we have made a start)
We need to look after our own people

India is our enemy
It occupies a muslim state which should be ours
We need to counter india militarily to protect our interests and continue to oppose it and block it

Giving up is not an option & until Kashmir is occupied giving india peace and space is not an option

 

[Post Colonnial]

it should be easy enough for rational minds to understand that economic dependency can go a long way in helping solve other issues. BUT Pakistan has stopped being being a country a long time ago and has found comfort in being an asset for its military establishment. What this means is Pakistan serves its military establishment, not the other way around. unsaid but logical implication of that is that whether Pakistan survives or not, its military establishment must.

This may sound atrocious but has already started happening. Resources, political stability, and national honor are vital ingredients of nation building. Yet more resources of Pakistan are devoted to military establishment than to anything else. Political stability has always been seconded to military establishment's whims - coups for example, the jihadis for another and the current Karachi invasions being the latest. As to honor, the establishment has of late even given up the pretense of being subservient to civilian leadership and quite openly countermands their PM's writ.

Given this, an average Pakistani has no option but to hope that they do not get any civilian leader to whom honor matters. If it does, that will set off a civil war with the military establishment. So the average Pakistani just goes along saluting the generals and the colonels and the majors - even at times mistaking it for patriotism. We find a lot of that behavior in this forum!

India's reality vis a vis Pakistan is simple: how to keep them at bay at minimal cost. Pakistan has nothing to lose. Therefore economic costs, global embarrassment, daily bombings etc don't mean that much to them, as long as they can find the next sugar daddy to ease the cash crunch. They have gone from Saudi, to US to China now....no reason why they wouldn't try Russia and Iran as possible B- level providers and perhaps get back into the good books of the USA again. And if all else fails they can always pay the muslim card, ease up on a afew madraassah and get back into the good books of KSA again.

Summary: India just needs to maintain the cost of Pakistani nuisance low.