India's Worst Fears and Our Military Options For Sir Creek,Kutch and Kathiawar Regions of Gujrat

[Cuirassier]

Actually, it was crossed by 3rd Jat; they were recalled in a baffling manner. They fought again, but as far as I remember, nobody got as far as they had done.

The local unit commander stated that they hadn't crossed - nonetheless ended up securing east bank.

 

[Nilgiri]

It is not nice to poke fun at the frustration of others.

I think I am not a nice person.

You are plenty nice here tbh...all things considered. Much nicer than I am anyway.

If I fantasize about conquests, I play strategy games, scratch that itch so to speak and then promptly return to other productive avenues.

For all the imaginative plans posted here, rarely do any converge towards fruitful exchange, fragile egos and potent toxicity make any such discussion improbable. Why waste time point scoring or bashing each other without any conclusive benefit.

There is less than a conclusive benefit with replying to likes of "Afrazulmandal" on just about anything FYI heh. He is one of those that get cannon-foddered by some blackflags in syrian desert. Not much cortex function there I am afraid.

That's understandable. Too bad.

I don't know why, but you made me laugh pretty hard with that one. Tip my hat sir.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The local unit commander stated that they hadn't crossed - nonetheless ended up securing east bank.

I was citing Col. Hayde of 3 Jat; since he was recalled, the local unit commander has all the right to claim that he never gave up an inch.

The fantasy portrayed in the movie Border has been refuted by scores in your own country as well. It was IAF that saved you the day. PAF should have provided air support!!! The saga of Longewala was a classic example of mis planning and lack of coordination by the top brass in the PA and PAF in 1971. Fifty years on wards things are very very different now.

1. The fantasy portrayed in the movie Border has been refuted by scores in your own country as well.True.
2. It was IAF that saved you the day.True.
3. PAF should have provided air support!!! True.
   
4. The saga of Longewala was a classic example of mis planning and lack of coordination by the top brass in the PA and PAF in 1971.True.
5. Fifty years on wards things are very very different now.Maybe.

IAF saved the day? Nah, I'm talking from your perspective, what our soldiers endured was different and it's not some fantasy fiction. IAF is useless once you overrun the position. The success is when a few soldiers held the position with guns taking out your tanks.

Please consider the situation if the PA had overrun the position and gone on. How long would it have been on the road? Given the mechanical breakdowns reported, and the complete neutralisation of one of the units tasked for the manoeuvre without a shot being fired, how much would have survived? What would have happened to armour and its supporting forces strung out on thin dirt roads with no possibility of going off-road in the peculiar conditions of the Thar?

Fifty years from then, ever wondered how things will be for India? Every war plan BS here on PDF has one psyche the absolute superiority of PAF and PA. Now, I'm glad you have developed a thing for PN who now gets past our maritime security and invade Gujarat successfully.

It is remarkable how the 'one P [substitute serviceman of choice from service of choice] is equal to seven I [substitute equivalent serviceman]' formula has survived through the ages.

 

[PanzerKiel]

This was that cowardly general Niranjan. He did not lose the jeep in Pakistan. It was captured in India itself and taken. @Joe Shearer can verify.




Do you have a source for this? You probably know what I need it for.

It was captured inside Pakistan. The GOC had left on foot to meet a Brigade Commander who was out of contact and his attack had bogged down. One of our local counter attacks then found and captured this vehicle.

 

[PanzerKiel]

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/operation-grand-slam.58135/

"The whole situation changed on 6th September once India attacked all along the international border opposite Sialkot, Lahore and Kasur. The 7th Division was ordered to transfer 11 Cavalry, HQ 4 Corps Artillery Brigade and 39 Field Regiment to 1 Corps in Ravi-Chenab Corridor.76 Grand Slam was over!"

These all basically went for Sialkot sector.

I was citing Col. Hayde of 3 Jat; since he was recalled, the local unit commander has all the right to claim that he never gave up an inch.

The first time 3 Jat came in was due to a gap, north of the defending infantry battalion guarding the direct approach, which should have been covered by one of our Sherman Squadrons. However, due to inefficient staff work, that squadron withdrew towards the otherside of the canal while the infantry battalion kept on defending.
At the end of the day 3 Jat had achieved the maximum ingress into our territory. However, Indian commanders, instead of reinforcing and capitalizing on the gains of this unit, called the unit back.

3 Jat, however, managed to do the same 16 days later which is, by all means, no small achievementt.

 

[Joe Shearer]

These all basically went for Sialkot sector.



The first time 3 Jat came in was due to a gap, north of the defending infantry battalion guarding the direct approach, which should have been covered by one of our Sherman Squadrons. However, due to inefficient staff work, that squadron withdrew towards the otherside of the canal while the infantry battalion kept on defending.
At the end of the day 3 Jat had achieved the maximum ingress into our territory. However, Indian commanders, instead of reinforcing and capitalizing on the gains of this unit, called the unit back.

3 Jat, however, managed to do the same 16 days later which is, by all means, no small achievementt.

Many thanks for setting the record straight. I really appreciate your note; if I had written about Hayde's boys going back there later, after everyone was on the alert, I would have been tarred and feathered and driven out of the forum (I still may be, but that's another barrel of pitch).

Did you read Hayde's description of the Pakistani infantry detachment that debouched from a civilian bus in perfect order and doubled away under fire as cool as ice to their positions? It was such an admiring mention torn out of a good soldier watching good soldiers doing their stuff.

 

[kongn]

Longewala was an air to ground affair.It didn't really involve much action from the indian ground forces.
The best battles the indian army won in the west were at asal uttar/khemkaran in 1965 and basantar in 71.

 

[KhanBaba2]

These all basically went for Sialkot sector.

When we crossed the IB, we were desperate. It did not matter where your troops went to as long as they went somewhere.

 

[kongn]

When we crossed the IB, we were desperate. It did not matter where your troops went to as long as they went somewhere.

The big problem we had in 65 was we had around 180 centurions compared to 360 odd pakistani pattons,we had no centurions initially in akhnoor sector only a few amx-13 which was a crisis.We had a single regiment of centurions at khem karan ,but that one performed miracles against 5 pak patton tank regiments.By 71 we had centurions,vijayantas as well as t-55s.It was much easier.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The big problem we had in 65 was we had around 180 centurions compared to 360 odd pakistani pattons,we had no centurions initially in akhnoor sector only a few amx-13 which was a crisis.We had a single regiment of centurions at khem karan ,but that one performed miracles against 5 pak patton tank regiments.By 71 we had centurions,vijayantas as well as t-55s.It was much easier.

Talking of Khem Karan, or rather, of Aasal Utter (not Asal Uttar, as people frequently distort it), since you are talking about the odds, you might mention Theograj's excellent leadership in passing. Major Amin keeps referring to the coup d'oeil being a necessary battle commander's quality; this was a perfect example.

 

[vishwambhar]

Economy is going down for most nations of the world, people dying, government worrying about fiscal and financial health and all Pakistanis worry about everyday is getting territories which they don't have a right on. Some want Rajasthan, some Kutch, some Hyderabad bla bla.
This Wuhan Virus will suppress world economy for atleast 2 years. Let's be concerned on that. Not these fantasies.

These are wet dreams which are free.....

 

[Joe Shearer]

These all basically went for Sialkot sector.



The first time 3 Jat came in was due to a gap, north of the defending infantry battalion guarding the direct approach, which should have been covered by one of our Sherman Squadrons. However, due to inefficient staff work, that squadron withdrew towards the otherside of the canal while the infantry battalion kept on defending.
At the end of the day 3 Jat had achieved the maximum ingress into our territory. However, Indian commanders, instead of reinforcing and capitalizing on the gains of this unit, called the unit back.

3 Jat, however, managed to do the same 16 days later which is, by all means, no small achievementt.

@Jackdaws
@Kanishka
@Nilgiri
One of the many nails in Niranjan Parsad's coffin. He was 15th Infantry Div. commander and fell apart during the pressure of battle, the hero who was shelled, took refuge in the road-side fields, and lost his jeep, the one on display. One of those who let us down in two wars, 62 and 65. Another, who ended up as Corps Commander in 71, is present here, taking pusillanimous inaction; yet he has his Wikipedia page and his loyal junior officers attesting to his fine leadership.

What fanboy kiddies do not get, fortunately, what may or may not be remembered in war games on either side of the border, is the major influence of stupidity and ineptitude at general officer level.

 

[Jackdaws]

@Jackdaws
@Kanishka
@Nilgiri
One of the many nails in Niranjan Parsad's coffin. He was 15th Infantry Div. commander and fell apart during the pressure of battle, the hero who was shelled, took refuge in the road-side fields, and lost his jeep, the one on display. One of those who let us down in two wars, 62 and 65. Another, who ended up as Corps Commander in 71, is present here, taking pusillanimous inaction; yet he has his Wikipedia page and his loyal junior officers attesting to his fine leadership.

What fanboy kiddies do not get, fortunately, what may or may not be remembered in war games on either side of the border, is the major influence of stupidity and ineptitude at general officer level.

Who is the "another"?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Who is the "another"?

K. K. Singh.

If I might twist matters 180 degrees, "Tell it not in Gath, publish it not in the streets of Ashkelon...."

 

[PanzerKiel]

@Jackdaws
@Kanishka
@Nilgiri
One of the many nails in Niranjan Parsad's coffin. He was 15th Infantry Div. commander and fell apart during the pressure of battle, the hero who was shelled, took refuge in the road-side fields, and lost his jeep, the one on display. One of those who let us down in two wars, 62 and 65.

You may like to go through B M Kaul's book as well. He is full of praise for Gen Prasad and his conduct before 1965, says he was fearless under fire.

@Jackdaws
@Kanishka
@Nilgiri
One of the many nails in Niranjan Parsad's coffin. He was 15th Infantry Div. commander and fell apart during the pressure of battle, the hero who was shelled, took refuge in the road-side fields, and lost his jeep, the one on display. One of those who let us down in two wars, 62 and 65.

B M Kaul gives a different view as to why Gen Prasad may not have performed well in 1965.