India's Worst Fears and Our Military Options For Sir Creek,Kutch and Kathiawar Regions of Gujrat

[Joe Shearer]

You may like to go through B M Kaul's book as well. He is full of praise for Gen Prasad and his conduct before 1965, says he was fearless under fire.

In hindsight, it is curious that Kaul and Harbaksh differed with one another more than once, in 1962 as well as in 1965. You must have read Harbaksh Singh's account of his meeting Niranjan Prasad during his front-line inspection of the front in 1965.

B M Kaul gives a different view as to why Gen Prasad may not have performed well in 1965.

Do you know, I had never gone through Kaul's book, and never thought I would.

You are full of surprises. This is now priority for me, as soon as I can get my hands on it (probably after the lifting of restrictions on May 3).

Thank you very much.

 

[kongn]

Talking of Khem Karan, or rather, of Aasal Utter (not Asal Uttar, as people frequently distort it), since you are talking about the odds, you might mention Theograj's excellent leadership in passing. Major Amin keeps referring to the coup d'oeil being a necessary battle commander's quality; this was a perfect example.

Yes,excellent handling by Brig theograj.Lt col Vaidya(shermans supporting infantry) and Lt col Caleb(lone centurion regimental commander) also did superbly.Gen vaidya later became COAS.65 was the last chance for pakistan to win a major victory over India because the numerical military balance(omitting troops held up in kashmir and china border)was still largely equal and they had better artillery,tanks and aircraft.Khemkaran is imo the most important battle in the history of modern india.

In hindsight, it is curious that Kaul and Harbaksh differed with one another more than once, in 1962 as well as in 1965. You must have read Harbaksh Singh's account of his meeting Niranjan Prasad during his front-line inspection of the front in 1965.



Do you know, I had never gone through Kaul's book, and never thought I would.

You are full of surprises. This is now priority for me, as soon as I can get my hands on it (probably after the lifting of restrictions on May 3).

Thank you very much.

Kaul,prasad,menon were all lackeys of nehru.Nehru was morbidly afraid of a military coup like in all the newly decolonized countries and wanted the army as a police force more than anything while dreaming of becoming the leader of the third world.Nuff said.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes,excellent handling by Brig theograj.Lt col Vaidya(shermans supporting infantry) and Lt col Caleb(lone centurion regimental commander) also did superbly.Gen vaidya later became COAS.65 was the last chance for pakistan to win a major victory over India because the numerical military balance(omitting troops held up in kashmir and china border)was still largely equal and they had better artillery,tanks and aircraft.Khemkaran is imo the most important battle in the history of modern india.



Kaul,prasad,menon were all lackeys of nehru.Nehru was morbidly afraid of a military coup like in all the newly decolonized countries and wanted the army as a police force more than anything while dreaming of becoming the leader of the third world.Nuff said.

Please do read the few extracts I put together to explain to @PanzerKiel why I deeply distrust that cabal that ran affairs during the 62 debacle, consisting of Bijji Kaul and Monty Palit, with the timorous neutrality of Thapar himself and of Bogey Sen. There are some personal details that I would not like to share in open print, and that is a pity. I so wish you could be told about them.

 

[PanzerKiel]

In hindsight, it is curious that Kaul and Harbaksh differed with one another more than once, in 1962 as well as in 1965. You must have read Harbaksh Singh's account of his meeting Niranjan Prasad during his front-line inspection of the front in 1965.



Do you know, I had never gone through Kaul's book, and never thought I would.

You are full of surprises. This is now priority for me, as soon as I can get my hands on it (probably after the lifting of restrictions on May 3).

Thank you very much.

....And i have both of these part of my "small collection".

In hindsight, it is curious that Kaul and Harbaksh differed with one another more than once, in 1962 as well as in 1965. You must have read Harbaksh Singh's account of his meeting Niranjan Prasad during his front-line inspection of the front in 1965.



Do you know, I had never gone through Kaul's book, and never thought I would.

You are full of surprises. This is now priority for me, as soon as I can get my hands on it (probably after the lifting of restrictions on May 3).

Thank you very much.

This is what Gen Kaul says about Gen Prasad.

 

[Joe Shearer]

View attachment 625551

....And i have both of these part of my "small collection".

View attachment 625552
This is what Gen Kaul says about Gen Prasad.

Fascinating!

Where did Kaul see Niranjan Prasad facing enemy fire in NEFA, and where, indeed, did he face fire? To the best of my knowledge - and this is obviously not comprehensive - General Prasad was reported on the front-line only when Bijji Kaul did his Town Hall meeting with 4th Division officers and men; Prasad was present. It is a ringing endorsement by Kaul, but perhaps more of a rhetorical flourish than a report of fact, an endorsement of one non-combatant by another non-combatant.

The Punch and Judy show between Harbaksh Singh and B. M. Kaul had started in 62.

You will remember that Harbaksh had briefly been given Kaul's job of GOC IV Corps, when Bijji Kaul fell sick, only to have a frantic Kaul rush back from Delhi to recover his first field command of his life. Bogey Sen, by then a shadow of the man who had led from the front in Kashmir, allowed all these waves to wash over him, and apart from completely confusing the situation of 4th Div. desiring that they hold their places when Prasad had already ordered a withdrawal, did nothing to stop Kaul from paradropping back into his treasured position. Harbaksh was compensated with command of XXXIII Corps. Today, XXXIII Corps is a critical corps and swings a lot of weight; back in the day, it was a backwater.

Sen was possibly influenced - this is pure speculation on my part - by the brilliant but thoroughly politicised Monty Palit, who was making it known to all who would listen (not his counter-part DGMI, Prem Bhagat, but Prem was not one of the chosen) that he had Cabinet backing for his proposals. So he too was interfering in 4th Corps decisions

Regarding the severance of elements of his division, Prasad may have had a point; one is reminded of the adage of every dog having its fleas, and every flea having further fleas. His boss' boss, Harbaksh, had been fighting his Army Chief about the severance of his Army reserves to set up a different formation, and leaving him without any reserves just as hostilities, unknown to both men, were about to break out. Maybe he had a point, maybe not.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Regarding the severance of elements of his division, Prasad may have had a point; one is reminded of the adage of every dog having its fleas, and every flea having further fleas. His boss' boss, Harbaksh, had been fighting his Army Chief about the severance of his Army reserves to set up a different formation, and leaving him without any reserves just as hostilities, unknown to both men, were about to break out. Maybe he had a point, maybe not.

Harbaksh and Prasad both, then, were facing the same problems. However, one made it a reason of his failure, the other performed despite all the odds and came on top.

With the a/m comment in view, look down below, dedication by B M Kaul at the beginning of his book.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Harbaksh and Prasad both, then, were facing the same problems. However, one made it a reason of his failure, the other performed despite all the odds and came on top.

With the a/m comment in view, look down below, dedication by B M Kaul at the beginning of his book.

LOLOL! A sense of humour, too.

I am 70 this year, and fortunately won't be around to see you leading whatever fate gives you to lead. Fortunately, because your tenure is not likely to be very good for the Indian Army. Good luck, Sir.

 

[PanzerKiel]

LOLOL! A sense of humour, too.

I am 70 this year, and fortunately won't be around to see you leading whatever fate gives you to lead. Fortunately, because your tenure is not likely to be very good for the Indian Army. Good luck, Sir.

I'll take that as a compliment, rather i have to.

LOLOL! A sense of humour, too.

I am 70 this year, and fortunately won't be around to see you leading whatever fate gives you to lead. Fortunately, because your tenure is not likely to be very good for the Indian Army. Good luck, Sir.

....and of course, i will try not to disappoint your coming generation.

 

[Zarvan]

HISTORICAL CASE FOR OUR CLAIM
1) These regions were once part of the Indus Valley civilisation,as the river Indus once passed there.
2)The Pathans of Gujarat were rulers of a number of princely states there, the main ones being Balasinor, Radhanpur, Palanpur and Junagadh and many many more.
3)There are a few million Kutchi and Kathiawari Gujarati living in Karachi. They are the among most the prominent Businessmen,Industrialists,Politicians and Philanthropists of the country.
4)The founder of the nation,Quaid e Azam was a Kathiawari Gujarati.
5)These regions are geographically and historically integrated to the mainland Pakistan.
6)The States Of Junagarh and Manawadar of Western Kathiawar agency joined Pakistan in 1947. The Nawab and his descendants reside in Karachi and still
claim to be the rightful Nawab of the state in ABSENTIA.

Junagarh -Tombs of the Nawabs

THE REASONS FOR INDIAN FEARS
1)Since our independence there has been no maritime boundary between Pakistan and India because of the pending issue of Sir Creek.
2)The unmarked maritime border between Sindh and Kutch allows free movement of fisherman from both sides resulting in arrests(Fish rich area).
3)The unmarked maritime border has resulted in several thousand square kilometres of disputed oceanic shelf, which is rumoured to be rich in oil and natural gas.
4)The sailing of an armed laden small boat from Karachi to Mumbai without interruption in 2008 can be a prelude to a bigger disaster in Kutch and Kathiawar in the future(Indian Sources).

Excerpts from CM Modi's letter(2012)
"During my recent visit to the coastal district of Kutch,Kathiawar( Saurashtra) region and the border districts of northern Gujarat, I found there is GENUINE FEAR among the people regarding their SAFETY and the SECURITY of the state of Gujarat. I am of the firm opinion that Kutch, Saurashtra and north Gujarat have vast potential of oil and gas, both offshore and onshore. Any attempt to hand over Sir Creek will be a STRATEGIC BLUNDER, considering the HISTORY and SENSITIVITY of the region."
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/nor...n-of-kutchmaritime-boundary-124418-2012-12-16

PAKISTAN'S MILITARY OPTIONS
The Kutch border with Sindh is the most fortified border after the LOC. Our military planners have already laid down some surprises for India,and Kutch-Kathiawar are no exception to it. Our experts in this forum have also written a lot on the mechanised military manoeuvres in the KUTCH region in their recent threads.
I will like to add my my two cents into it.
1)Before hostilities infiltrate as much supplies into the region as possible. Including arms,ammunition,medicines and rations etc and establish a solid intelligence network. Identify locals that are willing to collaborate. There are many that have fond memories of the Junagarh dynasty.
2)Activate the Hur Mujahid Force (HMF)by providing them with further training and hardware. The Hur jamaat has a lot of influence in the border areas adjacent to Pakistan. The light carriers and jeeps they operate are adequate to sprint in the Rann of Kutch as heavier military vehicles have a tendency to sink in the marshlands. The Hurs in the Mangrio,Malah and Rajar biradaries are boat specialists as well(fishermen by trade). The Hurs can be called upon in an hours notice.Their Patriotism and love for the motherland(dharti Maa) certainly does make me emotional.

Hurs assembling at the border.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1108686885558218753

Pir Pagaro leading his men to the border.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1108687752134979584

3) The Kutchi and Kathiawari Gujaratis(KKG) of Karachi are always the first ones to sign up for war volunteers when the need arises. Pak Navy has a lot of them. Their command on the Kutchi and Kathiawari dialects can be a useful resource when consolidating gains. A dedicated Brigade or two of these Pakistanis can be formed.
4) Expeditionary forces(EF) headed by a three star General of the Pakistan Army can be formed working under the principles laid down in the Combined Arms Doctrine.
5)The EF will constitute PA,PAF,PN,PN-Marines,SSG,SSGN,HMF,KKG,Sindh Rangers and local volunteers in Kutch-Kathiawar(LV).
6)Some out of the box solutions,stealth,blitzkrieg,innovative hardware and planning should be inducted.
a)Rapid deployment motor bike/quadbike Battalion just like the Iranians,armed with RPGs,MGs,AAMs and ATGMs.

View attachment 624764
b)Inducting different variants of Drones and in particular considering SWARM DRONE TACTICS. The Chinese,Turks and US have done a lot of work on them.Each country deploying different methodologies.
https://www.swarm-troopers.com/chinese-swarming-aattack-drone-video/
c)Deploying the ZUBR class Hovercraft with the help of China and Ukraine. These beasts are a fortress in their own capacity and are a game changer.

d) Turboprops for CAS ,Mobile Mortar systems,SSGN Submarines and many many more latest innovative techniques and hardware can be inducted. Midget submarines can be useful for coastal specialist troop deployments and supplies.
View attachment 624765
7)After initiation of hostilities Salients of Nagarparkar(Sindh),Kala dungar mountain(Kutch),Lakadia road Junction(Kutch)and Bhuj Airport should be consolidated for supplies and choking the Kathiawar region.(map borrowed from Signalian)

Various vectors from which different EFs are attacking :
1. The sea assault near Lakhpat,Jakhau,Mandvi,Pipar2. Landbridge from Badin and Sir Creek axis 3. Nagarparkar(Karoonjhar) over the lake to Lakadia jn 4. Nagarparkar(Karoonjhar) around the lake to Kala Dungar5. Heliborne and Paratroopers around Bhuj Airport.
CONCLUSION
The Indians know it in their bone that this assault will come one day. Its about time we reclaim our legitimate lands .With proper planning this GRAND victory will propel Pakistan to the new heights of GLORY.

Pakistan budget is short other wise we should increase Marine force to two Divisions. With one Division responsible for carrying out offensive operation inside India and in case of war capture as much territory as Possible. In case of conventional war our best defense is to go on offense and capture as many territory as possible in first few days of war and try to capture or surround as many major Indian Cities close to our border as we can.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I'll take that as a compliment, rather i have to.

It is indeed a compliment. One that comes with some difficulty, as it means that our soldiers will bear the consequences.

 

[ni8mare]

@Joe Shearer
There is some wrong with your info
Dhanush (a re-build in India from Bofors transfer of technology documents),

Dhanush is not exactly re-build but improved over the base bofors i.e., from 39 cal to 45 cal

Then there is another Dhanush MGS which is 52 cal which is under trials

ATAGS (an Ordnance Factory product)
No ATAGS is not from OF, but from TATA and bharat forge[/QUOTE]

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer
There is some wrong with your info
Dhanush (a re-build in India from Bofors transfer of technology documents),

Dhanush is not exactly re-build but improved over the base bofors i.e., from 39 cal to 45 cal

View attachment 625576

Then there is another Dhanush MGS which is 52 cal which is under trials

ATAGS (an Ordnance Factory product)
No ATAGS is not from OF, but from TATA and bharat forge

I believe you are right, and I was careless about details as I was trying to make the point that there were now lots of choices available.

Having said that, Dhanush was an improvement over the original FH77, but that was tweaking of the basic product.

The ATAGS is a DRDO (ARDE) design, farmed out for production to a number of private sector organisations including Tatas and Bharat Forge, but also including OF.

Thank you for taking the trouble.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Pakistan budget is short other wise we should increase Marine force to two Divisions. With one Division responsible for carrying out offensive operation inside India and in case of war capture as much territory as Possible.

A very good idea our planners should factor this in any attack. The Indians are not sitting idle either, to supplement their very vulnerable Bhuj airbase IAF has made another airbase in Naliya(Kutch) near the coast to defend against any seaborne assaults. To counter our Nagarparkar stronghold IAF is also making another airbase close to it in Deesa(interesting!!).
https://gossipela.com/2019/03/12/in...war-against-neighbours-pakistan-if-essential/

These are wet dreams which are free.....

Specially in the Bharat Rakshak forum where there is no limit.....

In case of conventional war our best defense is to go on offense and capture as many territory as possible in first few days of war and try to capture or surround as many major Indian Cities close to our border as we can.

Agree we should also think about some out of the box solutions. I like the Iranian bike mounted infantry idea armed with Manpads,RPGs,ATGMs and MGs. Fast,deadly,manoeuvrable,less risky,mobile and adaptable to desert and marshy surfaces.I have seen something similar to a Quad bike in PA as well!!!

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

we should increase Marine force to two Divisions

Pakistan Marines are getting better at each passing day. They had exercises with the US and China in the past so they are getting good experience and training by the best.

I would love Pak Marines take a look at this monster .