India's patience exhausted, won't allow Pak investigators inside Pathankot airbase: Manohar Parrikar

[Levina]

Since you are also living in UAE you can buy many Pakistani products and delivered it to India Simple.

Duly noted.
Lol

 

[Maarkhoor]

Duly noted.
Lol

Nice do some shopping and i was expecting some reasonable reply. Which i believe you don't have.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Lets not forget the man who has given a green signal to Pakistan SIT in Pathankot- Doval.
Me thinks its a master move...
1) The most obvious reason- international community is given a feel that India is ready to go any extent to thaw its relations with Pakistan(not that its a necessity). This step would mount more pressure on Pakistan to act responsibly.
2) This is a risk- a big one at that. Its like asking a suspect to visit the crime scene, and observing him to see what leads and evidences disturbs him. In short, it helps you gain more evidences. But as i said this is an extremely risky move.
I trust Doval on this.
so are they finally coming to India?

Operationally I might trust Doval as a carreer spook (perhaps one of the most experienced India has ever produced).

But the longer this goes on the more I think the Pakistanis are the ones who have played a strategic masterstroke and made the Indian establishment not only look foolish but impotent. Remember after 26/11 when Pakistan's hand was clear for the world to see but the Pakistani establishment refused to accept it? As a result India was the net beneficary of sympathy, support and moral authority. This led to tanigble benefits such as increased anti-terror coportation with friendly nations and left Pakistan rather exposed in many international arenas. But this time, Pakistan's lip service "coperation" effectviely negates all of the above, Pakistan is simply furthering its "we are a victim" narrative and being, effectively, let off the hook. The net result will be the same- no prosecutions on the Pakistani side of the masterminds of the attack and the infrastructure left intact to carry out more operations against India but now India looks like it is being unreasonable and Pakistan simply looks like a hapless victim trying their best but with limited resources.

What's also niggling me is that I happened to watch a few youtube videos that were panalist discussions post the Mynamar "hot pursuit" operations in June 2015. The GoI/BJP officals back then were so eager to beat their chests and claim "no one messes with India" and "all India's enemies should be scared" or "this is the only government that will go after terrorists who attack India wherever their safe havens maybe" etc etc and the end result a few months later? The same old impotent, status quo-seeking behaviour, we have seen for decades from sucessive GoIs. Pakistan is allowed to strike at will into India, what cost is the GoI imposing on them as a result? I notice that much of the discussion is around Doval but he is not the PM the last time I checked, were is the self-styled "tough guy"? Aside from some pleasant-sounding soundbites ("attacked humanity" and such) in the aftermath of the attack, Modi has been notebaly silent on this matter. And what exactly is the status of the FS talks? Are they going to be carried out "over the bodies of dead soldiers" (a phrase coined by the BJP in 2013)? You could excuse MMS somewhat for his inaction (dual centres of power, coalition compulsions- all the typical excuses) but Modi is meant to be different and enjoys an unprecedented majority in Parliament. Instead you have a nation of 1.3 billion capitulating to the Somalia of the region.

India may have won the battle but Pakistan continues to win the war.


@Spectre @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @PARIKRAMA @AUSTERLITZ @Echo_419 @Koovie @scorpionx @Star Wars @hinduguy @ranjeet @Vauban @Parul @Bang Galore @arp2041 @Water Car Engineer @mkb95 @Unknowncommando @ayesha.a @danish_vij @IndoUS @janon @kbd-raaf @Kinetic

 

[kbd-raaf]

Operationally I might trust Doval as a carreer spook (perhaps one of the most experienced India has ever produced).

But the longer this goes on the more I think the Pakistanis are the ones who have played a strategic masterstroke and made the Indian establishment not only look foolish but impotent. Remember after 26/11 when Pakistan's hand was clear for the world to see but the Pakistani establishment refused to accept it? As a result India was the net beneficary of sympathy, support and moral authority. This lead to tanigble benefits such as increased anti-terror coportation with friendly nations and left Pakistan rather exposed in many international arenas. But this time, Pakistan's lip service "coperation" effectviely negates all of the above, Pakistan is simply furthering its "we are a victim" narrative and being, effectively, let off the hook. The net result will be the same- no prosecutions on the Pakistani side of the masterminds of the attack and the infrastructure left intact to carry out more operations against India but now India looks like it is being unreasonable and Pakistan simply looks like a hapless victim trying their best but with limited resources.

What's also niggling me is that I happened to watch a few youtube videos that were panalist discussions post the Mynamar "hot pursuit" operations in Juna 2015. The GoI/BJP officals back then were so eager to beat their chests and claim "no one messes with India" and "all India's enemies should be scared" or "this is the only government that will go after terrorists who attack India wherever their safe havens maybe" etc etc and the end result a few months later? The same old impotent, status quo-seeking behaviour, we have seen for decades from sucessive GoIs. Pakistan is allowed to strike at will into India, what cost is the GoI imposing on them as a result? I notice that much of the discussion is around Doval but he is not the PM the last time I checked, were is the self-styled "tough guy"? Aside from some pleasant-sounding soundbites ("attacked humanity" and such) in the aftermath of the attack, Modi has been notebaly silent on this matter. And what exactly is the status of the FS talks? Are they going to be carried out "over the bodies of dead soldiers" (a phrase coined by the BJP in 2013)? You could excuse MMS somewhat for his inaction (dual centres of power, coalition compulsions- all the typical excuses) but Modi is meant to be different and enjoys an unprecedented majority in Parliament. Instead you have a nation of 1.3 billion capitulating to the Somalia of the region.

India may have won the battle but Pakistan continues to win the war.


@Spectre @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @PARIKRAMA @AUSTERLITZ @Echo_419 @Koovie @scorpionx @Star Wars @hinduguy @ranjeet @Vauban @Parul @Bang Galore @arp2041 @Water Car Engineer @mkb95 @Unknowncommando @ayesha.a @danish_vij @IndoUS @janon @kbd-raaf @Kinetic

A completely understandable and erudite post. However such displays of statecraft are not new.

A perfunctory display of sorrow and vengeful wrath often follows such actions which a state wishes to disavow. Pakistan is hardly striking at will. The entire infrastructure for this attack which would have taken the Pakistanis many months/years to develop is now destroyed. Their network of informants, etc. will be unraveled now that their hand has been played. Chances are attacks of this type will no longer be possible in the future. (hopefully).

Now what would you have the GoI do in a case like this? I am sure counter assault techniques are being worked out right now. I have no foolish hopes that the GoI is entirely innocent in the series of events that has caused Pakistan to fare so badly in the past decade or so, so I don't doubt that there will be tactical victories in Pakistan using local mujahideen etc.

 

[Spectre]

Operationally I might trust Doval as a carreer spook (perhaps one of the most experienced India has ever produced).

But the longer this goes on the more I think the Pakistanis are the ones who have played a strategic masterstroke and made the Indian establishment not only look foolish but impotent. Remember after 26/11 when Pakistan's hand was clear for the world to see but the Pakistani establishment refused to accept it? As a result India was the net beneficary of sympathy, support and moral authority. This led to tanigble benefits such as increased anti-terror coportation with friendly nations and left Pakistan rather exposed in many international arenas. But this time, Pakistan's lip service "coperation" effectviely negates all of the above, Pakistan is simply furthering its "we are a victim" narrative and being, effectively, let off the hook. The net result will be the same- no prosecutions on the Pakistani side of the masterminds of the attack and the infrastructure left intact to carry out more operations against India but now India looks like it is being unreasonable and Pakistan simply looks like a hapless victim trying their best but with limited resources.

What's also niggling me is that I happened to watch a few youtube videos that were panalist discussions post the Mynamar "hot pursuit" operations in June 2015. The GoI/BJP officals back then were so eager to beat their chests and claim "no one messes with India" and "all India's enemies should be scared" or "this is the only government that will go after terrorists who attack India wherever their safe havens maybe" etc etc and the end result a few months later? The same old impotent, status quo-seeking behaviour, we have seen for decades from sucessive GoIs. Pakistan is allowed to strike at will into India, what cost is the GoI imposing on them as a result? I notice that much of the discussion is around Doval but he is not the PM the last time I checked, were is the self-styled "tough guy"? Aside from some pleasant-sounding soundbites ("attacked humanity" and such) in the aftermath of the attack, Modi has been notebaly silent on this matter. And what exactly is the status of the FS talks? Are they going to be carried out "over the bodies of dead soldiers" (a phrase coined by the BJP in 2013)? You could excuse MMS somewhat for his inaction (dual centres of power, coalition compulsions- all the typical excuses) but Modi is meant to be different and enjoys an unprecedented majority in Parliament. Instead you have a nation of 1.3 billion capitulating to the Somalia of the region.

India may have won the battle but Pakistan continues to win the war.


@Spectre @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @PARIKRAMA @AUSTERLITZ @Echo_419 @Koovie @scorpionx @Star Wars @hinduguy @ranjeet @Vauban @Parul @Bang Galore @arp2041 @Water Car Engineer @mkb95 @Unknowncommando @ayesha.a @danish_vij @IndoUS @janon @kbd-raaf @Kinetic

You and I and the public at large may fall for these little tricks however diplomatic and intelligence communities world over are well aware of the facts on ground. No amount of negation/sympathy/empathy/victim playing and offers of co-operation is going to change much unless words translate into deeds.

Pakistan has no zero credibility left and it will take long and sustained action by their army and intelligence apparatus against terrorists of all hues before the world at large starts considering them sincere in their efforts to stop playing both sides.

Officially we all will play along and pay lip service to the Pakistan's "changed attitude" because that is the nature of the game and we don't want to be seen as in-gratuitous.

In conclusion - I would like to say that Pakistan is an necessary evil and we have to support it no matter what happens as the alternative is far worse - the nightmare scenario being Jihadis getting their hand on nukes. Pakistan knows it - but it is only so far it can push it's luck. We and the world community will not let it collapse but will do no more to help it along the path of economic prosperity. I think a time will come and perhaps has come when Pakistan has to decide if it just wants to survive or thrive. If it is the later then it has to stop with this Jekyl and Hyde act and get on with the program with no duplicity. For India it would mean complete dismantling of India focused terror apparatus. For Afganishtan it would mean dismantling extreme Taliban and main-streaming of moderate Taliban under Afghan constitution. For US and Europe it would mean strict control on the Pakistani Expats to ensure they don;t get funding or support.

Regards

 

[Abingdonboy]

A perfunctory display of sorrow and vengeful wrath often follows such actions which a state wishes to disavow. Pakistan is hardly striking at will. The entire infrastructure for this attack which would have taken the Pakistanis many months/years to develop is now destroyed. Their network of informants, etc. will be unraveled now that their hand has been played. Chances are attacks of this type will no longer be possible in the future. (hopefully).

The infrastructure on the Indian side may have been destroyed (rather irrelevent as they were succesful in their mission-up to a point) but on the Pakistani such infrastructure (that is far more extensive) will remain intact, free to plan further attacks in the future.

Yes, maybe an identical attack will not be possible for a while but with the infrastructure intact on the Pakistani side, they will simply look to hit the next target-wherever that may be.

Now what would you have the GoI do in a case like this?

A legitimate campaign to degrade the Pakistani state terror machine-nothing more, nothing less, however this can be acheived. There will be many that claim the "nuclear umbrella" negates India's ability to carry out such operations but this is a strawman argument- if you applied some forethought to the objectives they could be acheived. The US has been able to prosecute their enemies at will in FATA and elsewhere on Pakistani soil. India can build consensus within the international community (paying special attention to Pakistani's owners- the US, China and Saudi Arabia) assuring them that they will simply be going after legitimate terrorist targets with conventional forces (in this sense this is said to mean non-nuclear assets) and will be happy to provide the actionable inteligence with the world community after each attack/operation. Clear communication and expression of intention will entirely negate the possibility of Pakistani escalating to the N option.

Whilst it won't be possible to sustion a campaign long enough to eliminate all of these scum (or even a majority of them) at the very least it will be possible that these camps that are right on the LoC/IB are pushed back into the Pakistani heartland. The fact that they are allowed to exist with impunity within touching distance of Indian territory is unacceptable. Have LeT or JeM (and all other such orginisations in Pakistan's alphabet soup of terror groups) be forced to operate out of Islamabad and Karachi.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Abingdonboy - A solid assessment but then again the ground realities also are a much bigger issue of concern.

Bro, there is a deeper issue then whats in media or in public domain.. The information trickling points to many flaws within our own establishments which is why we have no choice but to accept GOP cooperation..

You remember the guy named Jugal Purohit, the one who declared FGFA in trouble when NaMo was landing in Moscow.. This is what he has written latest

https://twitter.com/x/status/688343052319088640

https://twitter.com/x/status/688343425880600576

https://twitter.com/x/status/688343873077309440

https://twitter.com/x/status/688344603192348672

Now when you are in such a precarious position, you are bound to control the verbal assault.. No doubt post Myanmar people of ruling NDA went over the top saying surgical strikes and ops are very much possible but here the assessment is much grimmer.. Not bcz that such ops are not possible but rather bcz there is a much bigger Geo Political Compulsion also playing against our hands.

FOr the moment the idea should be to concentrate on trying to dismantle the terror structure overtly (not covertly) and buy us a time of at least 12 months plus. If we can buy out those 12 months,, and strengthen our weaknesses right from border patrolling to weeding out all moles, spies and people who are in sleeper cells we can effectively bring about a time of peace by destroying the entire ecosystem inside India and re establishing all the same will require minimum few years . During that whole time, the overt measures of bringing the perpetrators to justice should continue to ensure the pressure is ON

There is no solution of trying to go after GOP whatever be the situation. The reason being India is not Israel.. As good as we may talk about the "willpower" & "resolve" of a small nation is 10000 times more than India's. Look at them doing everything first within their own country right from borders, to surveillance to self defence.. and then when an attack happens, they chase the perpetrators down across the globe and let Mossad take on missions to finish the job.. Here even if we know Dawood Ibrahim is sitting in say Dubai or any other country, our corridors of power sorry to say dont have ballsey to authorise a shoot down but we can keep on with the rhetoric and ask another country to hand him over with telephone bills, a news channel phone call live broadcast and a latest photo showing how he looks.

i apologize if i am harsh but then we must as a country first look at our own house and get it in order along with a iron will and a 10000 times stronger resolve. We should demonstrate that by wiping our house clean from all suhc bugs and sleeper cells.. and strengthen our borders and multi layer security system. This is to ensure no such corruption like seen in Punjab police drug involvement case is repeated and our own house gets breached bcz of few lacs of rupees..

Only then any terror organisation and any country working against us will fear again from repeating Mumbai attacks, parliament attacks, pathankot attacks etc etc..

 

[ghauri05]

before the people jump the gun here, more details would be welcome. Why would a Country open up a forward airbase to another country - specially Pakistan - against whom the airbase was installed in the first place?

Also, There is a lot of interest in this side of the world to see the talks between the two countries to continue and so far there has been no news to suggest that the talks have been stalled. This report looks more like a news reporter jingoism.

The question here is,the place where the incident tool place, needs to investigated for proofs and if u won't let that happen how can u carry out a fair inquiry of the matter.....any sane person will agree with that....or India has something to hide here....if u can think of any other reason...plz enlighten me???

 

[Atlanticore]

Obviously his patience will be Exhausted

Cause NSG took 4-5 days just to clear the base which was first 13 km then 17 km and then 24 km even they didn't even know the area of Air base

Lmao. Please Don't embarrass our Indian Members

 

[Abingdonboy]

Bro, there is a deeper issue then whats in media or in public domain.. The information trickling points to many flaws within our own establishments which is why we have no choice but to accept GOP cooperation..

You remember the guy named Jugal Purohit, the one who declared FGFA in trouble when NaMo was landing in Moscow.. This is what he has written latest

#Breaking: MoD sources inform 'action' to be taken against IAF staff for negligence leading to #Pathankot attack.— Jugal R Purohit (@jrpur) January 16, 2016
#Breaking: 'Dismayed over the laxity at #Pathankot. Will display zero-tolerance. Action will follow, from bottom and up'— Jugal R Purohit (@jrpur) January 16, 2016
#Breaking: MoD's own assessment doesn't YET support the 'insider' theory @ #Pathankot. 'NIA to have the last word' said a senior voice.— Jugal R Purohit (@jrpur) January 16, 2016
#Breaking: IAF staff, including seniors @ #Pathankot, to face the music. Sources reveal MoD's assessment shows the force in a poor light.— Jugal R Purohit (@jrpur) January 16, 2016

This is how it was always going to be- the MoD/Indian military takes dereliction of duty seriosuly- you are going to be some serious heads roll.

I just don't see how this necessitates cooperation with Pakistan? The IAF (and some others) officers may have been caught napping but that doesnt change the fact that these guys came from terror groups inside Pakistan that have histrocial ties to the GoP/Pak establishment.

There is no solution of trying to go after GOP whatever be the situation. The reason being India is not Israel.. As good as we may talk about the "willpower" & "resolve" of a small nation is 10000 times more than India's. Look at them doing everything first within their own country right from borders, to surveillance to self defence.. and then when an attack happens, they chase the perpetrators down across the globe and let Mossad take on missions to finish the job.. Here even if we know Dawood Ibrahim is sitting in say Dubai or any other country, our corridors of power sorry to say dont have ballsey to authorise a shoot down but we can keep on with the rhetoric and ask another country to hand him over with telephone bills, a news channel phone call live broadcast and a latest photo showing how he looks.

Too true. Of course it is far easier to form a consensus in a small nation with, relative, homogeneity of views, beleifs, outlooks, education etc etc- India is just a mess in comparison. Not only that, but Israel is a nation where strategic concerns have always taken precedent in their national affairs, India is comparatively very inward looking and most Indian leaders have absolutely no exposure to such considerations nor do they care to have them.

 

[CriticalThinker02]

Pakistan was willing to cooperate and even arrested JeM and sealed their offices, even with such a good will gesture by our side India refusing for a joint investigation clearly proves that pathankot was a false flag attack, I mean why won't they not cooperate?, what is there to hide if you are truthful?, why make such excuses and write such long paragraphs to justify your "innocence"?, why move away from investigation and cooperation when you have nothing to hide?, why the sudden U-turn by India when you were clearly praising the steps taken by Pakistan a few weeks ago?, why the sudden impatience?.

“When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.” - Quran 17:81

 

[Abingdonboy]

Pakistan was willing to cooperate and even arrested JeM and sealed their offices, even with such a good will gesture by our side

You took him into protective custody- that isn't an arrest.

 

[Spectre]

@Abingdonboy - A solid assessment but then again the ground realities also are a much bigger issue of concern.

Bro, there is a deeper issue then whats in media or in public domain.. The information trickling points to many flaws within our own establishments which is why we have no choice but to accept GOP cooperation..

You remember the guy named Jugal Purohit, the one who declared FGFA in trouble when NaMo was landing in Moscow.. This is what he has written latest

https://twitter.com/x/status/688343052319088640

https://twitter.com/x/status/688343425880600576

https://twitter.com/x/status/688343873077309440

https://twitter.com/x/status/688344603192348672

Now when you are in such a precarious position, you are bound to control the verbal assault.. No doubt post Myanmar people of ruling NDA went over the top saying surgical strikes and ops are very much possible but here the assessment is much grimmer.. Not bcz that such ops are not possible but rather bcz there is a much bigger Geo Political Compulsion also playing against our hands.

FOr the moment the idea should be to concentrate on trying to dismantle the terror structure overtly (not covertly) and buy us a time of at least 12 months plus. If we can buy out those 12 months,, and strengthen our weaknesses right from border patrolling to weeding out all moles, spies and people who are in sleeper cells we can effectively bring about a time of peace by destroying the entire ecosystem inside India and re establishing all the same will require minimum few years . During that whole time, the overt measures of bringing the perpetrators to justice should continue to ensure the pressure is ON

There is no solution of trying to go after GOP whatever be the situation. The reason being India is not Israel.. As good as we may talk about the "willpower" & "resolve" of a small nation is 10000 times more than India's. Look at them doing everything first within their own country right from borders, to surveillance to self defence.. and then when an attack happens, they chase the perpetrators down across the globe and let Mossad take on missions to finish the job.. Here even if we know Dawood Ibrahim is sitting in say Dubai or any other country, our corridors of power sorry to say dont have ballsey to authorise a shoot down but we can keep on with the rhetoric and ask another country to hand him over with telephone bills, a news channel phone call live broadcast and a latest photo showing how he looks.

i apologize if i am harsh but then we must as a country first look at our own house and get it in order along with a iron will and a 10000 times stronger resolve. We should demonstrate that by wiping our house clean from all suhc bugs and sleeper cells.. and strengthen our borders and multi layer security system. This is to ensure no such corruption like seen in Punjab police drug involvement case is repeated and our own house gets breached bcz of few lacs of rupees..

Only then any terror organisation and any country working against us will fear again from repeating Mumbai attacks, parliament attacks, pathankot attacks etc etc..

No one is saying that there are no chinks in the armour.

You have raised important issues here

1. Poor State of Internal Security Infrastructure at large
2. Corruption of Punjab Police and their role in Pathankot attacks
3. Negligence by IAF in securing the base.
4. Indian restraint/cowardice when it comes to neutralizing enemy assets.
5. Lack of Indian offensive or retaliation for the losses suffered.

I would like to address each of these issues in brief.

1. It is not only internal security which is neglected but all spheres under the influence of Govt due to corruption and bureaucratic inertia and lethargy. I believe this something which cannot be reformed - others may feel to disagree. Such attitude has been ingrained at an institutional level and only way out is to change the complete way India functions which would require disruptive revolution leaving India unrecognizable from what it is right now. In the bargain we might loose so many of the freedoms we take for granted.

In-efficiency is a by-product of large democracies.

2. Punjab police and the Drug connection are easier to tackle in principle however not so in practice. US itself is loosing the war on drugs despite hundreds of billions of dollars spent and hundreds of thousands of people incarcerated.
Thankfully India is not at that stage yet and there is still time to contain this menace however it would require massive re-education campaign, employment opportunities in Punjab and most importantly incorruptible leadership. Last point is an issue - let's see if AAP Govt can bring in the desired changes as Congress/BJP/SAD are all involved heavily in Drug business.

3. IAF will heed the lessons if appropriate pressure is applied and follow up is done. I think Parikkar can control the situation. This should be taken as a learning opportunity and lessons disseminated to all bases so that mistakes are not repeated.

4/5 India and Israel are two very different countries and I am not sure at all that the Israeli way is right. Just look at the state Israel is right now with attacks happening everyday. Sure there is a large difference in demographics but India has 200 million strong Muslim too who for most part are well integrated. This is a delicate balance and we should tread very carefully and always respond proportionately lest our actions be mis-understood or we push the enemy into the corner so that it has no way out but to lash in a destructive way. As of now things are contained and proxy-warfare is of low intensity. We do not want to escalate the hostilities and over-estimate our capabilities. As of now 99% of our population is united when it comes to National Security barring some exceptions in Valley and regions of West Bengal

I agree that there have been certain instances when a stronger response was desired, I agree that we need to have better HUMINT and be more pro-active in neutralizing certain figures who hold propaganda value for our enemies however I would just say likes of Lakhvi, Dawood, Azhar etc are just puppets. There is no tangible gains in neutralizing them . The basic rule of covert war-fare is that it is the hidden hand you need to concern yourself with. Public Figures have served their value and expendable.

I would say keep a close eye on West Bengal - thinks dont look good there. It is the internal enemies which would do us harm, Pakistani threat is well known and already discounted and covered for

Regards

 

[CriticalThinker02]

You took him into protective custody- that isn't an arrest.

We eliminated over 3,400 TTP and Haqqani Network terrorists during the on-going Zarb-e-azb operation, eliminating a few JeM's won't be a big deal for us if we found them guilty, now the real question is why won't you cooperate and have a joint investigation with Pakistan?

No more excuses.

 

[asad71]

Actually Indian military wants to hide views like this one:
Panjim, Goa, India. , Taken by my friend few days ago . Its an active facility.