India's own multi caliber rifle

[The_Sidewinder]

True that,in fact Galil more closely resembles the INSAS!!By the way,do not expect a reply from our omniscient moderator ji.

He he he. Not expecting one.

 

[Joseph Goebbels]

True that,in fact Galil more closely resembles the INSAS!!By the way,do not expect a reply from our omniscient moderator ji.

you sir bieng with a army background know what a soldier needs in owr conditions

but looking at INSAS or MCIWS they both look quite flimsy and over milled with too many body parts exposed to the elemnts which makes them appear poor or say ugly

any sugesstions

 

[Omega007]

you sir bieng with a army background know what a soldier needs in owr conditions

but looking at INSAS or MCIWS they both look quite flimsy and over milled with too many body parts exposed to the elemnts which makes them appear poor or say ugly

any sugesstions

Well,I'm not from an Army back ground although some of my relatives are in the same.I got my experience with rifles from the NCC actually.

And yes,INSAS does have a lot of rivets and all and it looks primitive but the MCIWS!!I don't think it looks rudimentary at all.By the way,I think I would be able to help more if you actually specify those parts in MCIWS that you think are exposed or poorly made.And also do take in mind that the MCIWS is still in prototype testing phase,it's not the finished product as yet.

 

[holysaturn]

First of all I don't understand the need for a multi calibre rifle. I am not an expert but I beleieve things would be done in a much less riskier and less expensive(3 times) way in adopting a combinattion of
1. A common conventional calibre 5.56mm or 6.8mm.
2. The 7.62mm ghataak rifle.
3. A compact carbine like the JVPC or micro tavor.
3. A refurbished modernised 7.62x51 FAL's as DMR(on the lines of M14 EBR) from the huge stocks available. I remember officers saying how the militants feared the FAL's stopping power.

A rifle around 5.56 has to be made instead of the 6.8x43 as the problems with the 5.56 are related with short barrel rifes like m-4, wound effect's dependance on the yaw of the bullet and not primarily because of stopping power.The below article compares the 6.8x43mm and the 5.56x45mm rounds and concludes that 6.8 does not offer a conclusive advantage over the 5.56 considering the cost of introducing a new calibre.
Not So Special: A Critical View Of The 6.8mm SPC - The Firearm Blog

A multical gun with quick change calibre mechanism leads to a heavier rifle with relatively high complexity so as to accomodate a variety of barrels,breach block,magazines.Higher complexity means a less reliable rifle.Instead rifles designed for specific calibres might be more reliable as compared to a swiss army knife.

 

[Joseph Goebbels]

First of all I don't understand the need for a multi calibre rifle. I am not an expert but I beleieve things would be done in a much less riskier and less expensive way in adopting a combinattion of
1. A common conventional calibre 5.56mm or 6.8mm.
2. The 7.62mm ghataak rifle.
3. A compact carbine like the JVPC or micro tavor.
3. A refurbished modernised 7.62x51 FAL's as DMR(on the lines of M14 EBR) from the huge stocks available. I remember officers saying how the militants feared the FAL's stopping power.

A rifle around 5.56 has to be made instead of the 6.8x43 as the problems with the 5.56 are related with short barrel rifes like m-4, wound effect's dependance on the yaw of the bullet and not primarily because of stopping power.The below article compares the 6.8x43mm and the 5.56x45mm rounds and concludes that 6.8 does not offer a conclusive advantage over the 5.56 considering the cost of introducing a new calibre.
Not So Special: A Critical View Of The 6.8mm SPC - The Firearm Blog

A multical gun with quick change calibre mechanism leads to a heavier rifle with relatively high complexity so as to accomodate a variety of barrels,breach block,magazines.Higher complexity means a less reliable rifle.Instead rifles designed for specific calibres might be more reliable as compared to a swiss army knife.

why not take manufacturing license Tavor as it already does every thing and that to in a compact and durable package and Indian Army special forces love it

 

[holysaturn]

why not take manufacturing license Tavor as it already does every thing and that to in a compact and durable package and Indian Army special forces love it

Yes that is a far better option compared to the tendering option,tendering should be limited to choosing the production agency and should be brief and simple ,looking only at the core capability needed to produce these rifles.

Or the army can conduct trials(without a tender) as a study with the following rifles
1.Tavor-21
2.An upgraded INSAS 1B1
3.An Excalibur mk2 or mk3
4.MCIWS strictly 5.56mm or striclty 6.8mm variant with all the multi calibre gold plating removed.

Draw conclusions out of the study and as a seperate effort evaluate the cost of introducing each rifles or upgrading existing ones.Now conduct the techno-commercial trade off and zero in on an option which meets the necessary requirements(desired needs can always wait) and the cheapest.
These are based on field used weapons , negotiate with the private or public production agency or partner and conlude the contract the whole process will not take more than six to 12 months and a good deal can be obtained since the production agencies know that there are alternate options with the user.

 

[Manindra]

Why are we still not in bull-pup age?

Bull-Pup does not give you any extra advantage except look fancy.
World top Armies still prefers conventional assault rifles.
M16, AK-74, FN-SCAR etc.

 

[holysaturn]

Bull-Pup does not give you any extra advantage except look fancy.
World top Armies still prefers conventional assault rifles.
M16, AK-74, FN-SCAR etc.

They use conventional rifles because of the ease training troops with ar type or ak type weapons plus there are a lot of parts accesories available for ar type and ak type rifles not because they have major operational advantages ,Israel which has been constantly in combat has recognised the advantages the bullpup offers.

The following are the advantages or bullpups esp tavor:
1.Overall length shorter but longer barrel length,higher muzzle velocity(which eminimizes significanty the lethality problems of 5.56),very usefull in urban and CQB situations which constitute a majority of the engagements, a huge advantage.
2.lighter and thus easier to use, less fatigue.
2.The weight is to the rear and thus easier to manuver.
3.The tavor especially is very easy to strip by removing a single pin and the parts are simple , not tiny and many.

Disadvantages:
1.The trigger is in front of the bolt assembly which means a mechanism is required to convey the trigger pull to the bolt assembly, this is slightly complex but solutions are available with steyr aug and tavor.
2.Slightly higher recoil impulse because the barrel end and mechanism are much closer to the shoulder.
3.Limitation in rail lengths 12,3,6,9 o clock positions to mount accesories.
4.Gases from the breech irritating the eyes and nose,as it is closer to the face.
5.UGBL mounting is slightly difficult because of the short lower rails or handguards, so all rail mounted grnade launchers cannot be mounted readily.
6.Absence of adjustable stocks and adjustable cheek rests.
7.Slightly akward to use in prone positions but many aknowledge it is not much of a hindrance.

Though there are disadvantages in the bullpup the advantages it brings to the table far outweighs the disadvantages which are not major problems.

 

[Matrixx]

keep it up...we badly need world class indigenous rifle.

 

[Indian Patriot]

you sir bieng with a army background know what a soldier needs in owr conditions

No Indian in this forum has an army background. Those who claim so are clearly lying. Ask yourself, if you were in Indian army would you be posting on a Pakistani defense forum? Would Pakistani soldiers be posting in an Indian defense forum?

So don't put too much value in their words because they know even less than you.

but looking at INSAS or MCIWS they both look quite flimsy and over milled with too many body parts exposed to the elemnts which makes them appear poor or say ugly

INSAS is recycled AK-47+ Israeli Galil + SLR and a host of other rifles all compressed into one and the end result you get is a garbage.

Problem with INSAS is the manufacturing. It is not made by modern machinery and it is clearly evident in its disastrous looks. Look at the markings printed on the body of the INSAS - it looks hand-written, such is the poor quality of finish. The body of the rifle has too many rivets which are a flaw in the design and which in turn adds unnecessary weight to the weapon making it clumsy.

And looks are not the only problem. The rifle lacks suppression fire-power, it is unreliable because it heats when too many rounds are fired, it jams when the trigger is pulled (at times), it has problem of double-feeding, it suffers from loss of zero after cleaning which is a major problem in any rifle.

any sugesstions

Leave designing of weapons to people who are skilled and qualified. Not to the losers in DRDO who got their jobs by producing fake degrees, paying bribes and other illegal means. Involve the private sector which respects merit and has a professional work culture.

Look at AK-47. It is such an old design but still the best in the world. You use the rifle, abuse it, bury it in mud for a year and it will still be working like new. That is called design.

why not take manufacturing license Tavor as it already does every thing and that to in a compact and durable package and Indian Army special forces love it

If that happens DRDO will not be able to steal money from the government.

 

[kaku1]

No Indian in this forum has an army background. Those who claim so are clearly lying. Ask yourself, if you were in Indian army would you be posting on a Pakistani defense forum? Would Pakistani soldiers be posting in an Indian defense forum?

So don't put too much value in their words because they know even less than you.



INSAS is recycled AK-47+ Israeli Galil + SLR and a host of other rifles all compressed into one and the end result you get is a garbage.

Problem with INSAS is the manufacturing. It is not made by modern machinery and it is clearly evident in its disastrous looks. Look at the markings printed on the body of the INSAS - it looks hand-written, such is the poor quality of finish. The body of the rifle has too many rivets which are a flaw in the design and which in turn adds unnecessary weight to the weapon making it clumsy.

And looks are not the only problem. The rifle lacks suppression fire-power, it is unreliable because it heats when too many rounds are fired, it jams when the trigger is pulled (at times), it has problem of double-feeding, it suffers from loss of zero after cleaning which is a major problem in any rifle.



Leave designing of weapons to people who are skilled and qualified. Not to the losers in DRDO who got their jobs by producing fake degrees, paying bribes and other illegal means. Involve the private sector which respects merit and has a professional work culture.

Look at AK-47. It is such an old design but still the best in the world. You use the rifle, abuse it, bury it in mud for a year and it will still be working like new. That is called design.



If that happens DRDO will not be able to steal money from the government.

If you are too not from IA, so why we take your shits who knows nothing?

Contradictory to yourself.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

DRDO MCIWS



she ppuurrrddyyy

 

[Omega007]

DRDO MCIWS



she ppuurrrddyyy

Finally,India's small arms development has come of ages it seems.I just hope they go for a new generation 5.56 mm ammo like the Mk318mod1.Damn,that thing is a beast!!It is an all purpose round with decent range even when fired from " barrels,good expansion in soft tissue due to its open tip construction yet provides quite good barrier penetration due to the solid penetrator at the back.But moreover,since it house a 62 grain projectile,the standard INSAS barrel will have no problem stabilizing it ad there would be no need to change the twist rate.Mk 262 is great too,especially against unarmored personnel but it's not very good against men wearing body armor or behind cover.

 

[hkdas]

DRDO MCIWS



she ppuurrrddyyy

 

[ni8mare]

@Abingdonboy