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India's conventional military superiority over Pakistan is exaggerated.

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@The SC

Part 3

Pakistan is geared for yesterday's war not for the future, India on the other hand is spending a lot of time and effort to keep up with the changing trends.

Force multipliers.

  • Massive EW systems, Samyukta are in service in IA. Each system has 144 vehicles and is capable of jamming communications, SIGINT in an area spanning 150 km x 70km. This includes the jamming ground based communication, radars and UAVs.
  • One of the largest and most comprehensive Battlefield Management System in the world is being developed and should be in service soon. PA has a rudimentary BMS but only in its armoured corps. Indian one will provide real time information from Corps commaders right down to the section leader. If necessary, a Corps commander can bypass the chain of command and can engage a unit as small as a section. Three types of BMS will be in service, infantry, armour and special forces
  • New UAV policy is being formulated which essentially means that every IA combat unit from section and upwards will have its own dedicated UAVs. From micro UAVs for infantry sections to Rustom-H for Commands.
  • Something akin to JSTARS are to ordered. Initial order is of 9 units. Capabilites to include COMJAM, SIGINT, ELINT and battlefield surveillance.
 
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I am sick of these threads. Lets just fight a war and settle this issue once and for all. We Pakistanis are too scared to initiate one, Indians, as strong as they are have the balls to do so. So please india, initiate one and we'll lay this matter to rest once and for all.

Of course.

And you being a front-line soldier with his life at risk, thank you for the suggestion. It shows that you aren't a coward hiding behind a pseudonym on the Internet, but are really a soldier with a soldier's professional pride and a soldier's courage. Very noble of you.
 
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The third option you have forgotten .... the systematic disruption of the social fabric of Pakistan ... and increased instability to keep it off balance aka asymmetric war.

lol..offcourse, you'd say that. Because you think the disruption caused by super power's entrance in the region (US in Afghanistan) is somehow "you" doing it :lol:

We had been f*cking your country left and right..kashmir insurgency, mumbai blasts and what not throughout 90's. Where were you? Oh yeah, NO WHERE!

It is ONLY after U.S entered Afghanistan and you got the luck window to reciprocate our superior intelligence operations..

But even here, you are being taken care of....systematically:smokin:

Your conventional options of fighting war against us have been neutralized effectively by your own admission. Hence the assymetric war under the luck umbrella of world's sole super power.:usflag:
 
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With the economy picking up pace the conventional status quo shouldn't be too hard to maintain, we know the Indians over promise and under deliver (Rafale a case in point). We just cant afford another lost decade like the last 10 years.

This is outrageous!

Some wretched Indian promised you Rafales? And you bought into it?

There should be a law against this kind of bare-faced lying.
 
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@The SC

Conclusion

Many of the above mentioned platforms and weapon systems are already inducted or are about to inducted. These do not include the platforms which are still in planning stage. I omitted quite a lot of systems especially the naval ones. Cherry picking a couple of examples like self propelled artillery or LCA is not going to help Pak's cause. When it comes to the overall war fighting capabilities India is surging far far ahead of Pakistan.

So in short, the gap between Indian and Pakistani conventional capabilities is absolutely huge and will keep growing at a break neck speed.
 
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lol..offcourse, you'd say that. Because you think the disruption caused by super power's entrance in the region (US in Afghanistan) is somehow "you" doing it :lol:

We had been f*cking your country left and right..kashmir insurgency, mumbai blasts and what not throughout 90's. Where were you? Oh yeah, NO WHERE!

It is ONLY after U.S entered Afghanistan and you got the luck window to reciprocate our superior intelligence operations..

But even here, you are being taken care of....systematically:smokin:

Your conventional options of fighting war against us have been neutralized effectively by your own admission. Hence the assymetric war under the luck umbrella of world's sole super power.:usflag:

And that disturbed our social fabric and brought us to our knees.

Good analysis. It's also nice that you've figured out how to make it a one-way street, to ensure it never happens to you. It must be blissful to be in a country where there're no bomb blasts in the streets, and where there are no insurgents being hunted down b y the Army, no attacks on your armed forces command centres, your hospitals and your schools, even on your military bases.

Superb management of the situation.
 
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Kindly elucidate the bold portion.

Factually incorrect.

Borders of North Eastern States with Myanmar and China are having ITBP and BSF with Assam Rifles and other CAPFs forming second line. Bangladesh is manned by BSF completely.

No active units deployed on border with either China or Myanmar or Bangladesh.

War is about achieving the goals and The question of who won the Vietnam War is a contentious and emotional one, because opinions in the United States were so divided while the war was happening. However, North Vietnam ultimately achieved all of its strategic goals while the United States did not. Most historians would agree that North Vietnam won the war.

point 2 : Agreed that India have paramilitary forces of 1.2 million personnel on the other hand Pakistan also have 450,000 paramilitary personnel which is sufficient to to take care any situation. i was expecting you to come up with data and facts but sorry to say every time i have to put forwawrd the data .. .its not fair really :D
 
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And that disturbed our social fabric and brought us to our knees.

Good analysis. It's also nice that you've figured out how to make it a one-way street, to ensure it never happens to you. It must be blissful to be in a country where there're no bomb blasts in the streets, and where there are no insurgents being hunted down b y the Army, no attacks on your armed forces command centres, your hospitals and your schools, even on your military bases.

Superb management of the situation.

No, that wasn't the point.

The point was that indians couldn't do jack sh!t UNTIL the superpower disturbed the balance of forces in the region. In a sense, indians got "lucky" when it comes to launching an assymetric war against your enemy. We had been doing it to india for decade or so quite successfully while indians barely had any response.

Anyways, enemies fight. You hit, you get hit.

As long as there is balance of power between Pakistan and India--we are happy.

And only fanboys or downright idiots would deny the existence of such balance when it comes to the overall military prowess of both countries (even if the balance is titled in india's favor due to obvious advantages in size and manpower).
 
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Yet, this line of thinking overlooks the fact that the Indian military is beset by obsolete platforms.

And the Pakistan Army isn't?

Since the end of the Cold War, the manpower balance between the two armies has hovered around a 2:1 ratio in India’s favor. However, just 18 of the army’s 36 divisions are stationed in the states bordering Pakistan, fifteen of which are infantry divisions, with only limited offensive power. In contrast, 18 of the Pakistani army’s 22 divisions—including both of their armored divisions—are deployed in provinces adjacent to the international border. If we account for the estimated 70,000 Pakistani soldiers that have been temporarily redeployed to confront the Pakistani Taliban, India’s manpower advantage at the theater level at the start of any crisis would be 1.2:1.

Whatever happened to 7,00,000 troops in Kashmir? :D I'm glad sane minds prevail.

Although in a longer conflict India could bring its numerical superiority to bear, the military has numerous shortfalls of ammunition and equipment that make a struggle of more than a few weeks duration unlikely. For example, as of August 2014, the Army lacked ammunition to undertake more than twenty days of “intense fighting” with less than seven days of reserves of key stocks of artillery ammunition, anti-tank missiles and a “critical shortage” of ammunition for its main battle tanks that would run out after ten days, hardly enough time for additional forces to make a difference.

Two major mistakes here.

1. While the Indian Army's war fighting capability has been mentioned here, Pakistan's has not.

2. The numbers are not the total ammunition stock of the army but the War Wastage Reserves. We need 40 days of WWR for intense fighting, but that's not all the ammo that the IA has.

Moreover, it is alleged that large numbers of the Indian army’s fleet of tanks are nearing obsolescence and unable to operate at night, while their modern replacements are unsuited for operations in the desert regions around the international border. Unsurprisingly, some Indian defense analysts have suggested that their army requires at least 1,500 modern tanks to gain a conventional edge.

Whatever happened to the 1000+ T-90s that are already in operation?

And what about Pak numbers? How many T-90 class tanks in the PA? There should be a valid comparison. If the PA has no T-90 class tanks, then even a few hundred with the IA are enough to get an advantage, let alone 1500.

Finally, since India does not possess heavy bombers, the ability of fighter jets or missile strikes to significantly damage terrorist bases is open to question.

That's a very weird opinion.

A B-52 can carry 32 tons of bombs.
A B-1B can carry 34 tons internally.
A B-2 can carry 23 tons.

A flight of 4 Su-30MKI can carry the same amount, up to 32 tons.

The bomber's main advantage is range. But that sort of range is irrelevant in our scenario. Highly maneuverable aircraft carrying PGMs are of greater importance than a weapon that can only be used after air superiority is ensured.

In the entire article, the only thing the author has compared is numbers stationed near the borders which gives Pak the advantage. But the rest of the article simply says "the IA sucks" and ends it with that. IA has obsolete tech, but what about Pak? The IA does not have enough ammo, but what about Pak? What about the tanks? How about comparing supporting assets, like the air wing?

The article talks about IA's obsolescence, then it should have also compared future modernization plans. It should have talked about FMBT, FRCV and FICV and compared that similar to Pak programs. It should have talked about the IA's new air wing and brought up PA and PAF's plan to counter it. Where is the comparison on battlefield communication systems and soldier modernization programs?

The title says "India's conventional military superiority over Pakistan is exaggerated" but gives no information to prove it.
 
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@The SC

Part 3

Pakistan is geared for yesterday's war not for the future, India on the other hand is spending a lot of time and effort to keep up with the changing trends.

Force multipliers.

  • Massive EW systems, Samyukta are in service in IA. Each system has 144 vehicles and is capable of jamming communications, SIGINT of an area of 150 km x 70km. This includes the jamming ground based communication, radars and UAVs.
  • One of the largest and most comprehensive Battlefield Management System in the world is being developed and should be in service soon. PA has a rudimentary BMS but only in its armoured corps. Indian one will provide real time information from Corps commaders right down to the section leader. If necessary, a Corps commander can bypass the chain of command and can engage a unit as small as a section. Three types of BMS will be in service, infantry, armour and special forces
  • New UAV policy is being formulated which essentially means that every IA combat unit from section and upwards will have its own dedicated UAVs. From micro UAVs for infantry sections to Rustom-H for Commands.
  • Something akin to JSTARS are to ordered. Initial order is of 9 units. Capabilites to include COMJAM, SIGINT, ELINT and battlefield surveillance.

I think it is good for India to modernise its armed forces, but please do not underestimate Pakistan, because every system you have mentionned have already its equivalent in The Pakistani armed forces, they just do not advertise it too much.. If you believe that China can counter all those new systems and weapons, you can be sure that Pakistan can do it too, so balance ratio will never go up to 2:1 in any branch of the armed forces.
 
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lol..offcourse, you'd say that. Because you think the disruption caused by super power's entrance in the region (US in Afghanistan) is somehow "you" doing it :lol:

We had been f*cking your country left and right..kashmir insurgency, mumbai blasts and what not throughout 90's. Where were you? Oh yeah, NO WHERE!


A citizen/country that takes pride in terrorist activities... only pakistan in the world... everyone else will feel ashamed to even admit.. but u ppl take pride in that.. and when the chicken came home to roost, a blast in lahore, a university fucked up in kpk, an army public school massacred... come on buddy.. take pride in those too.. why do u want to shift the blame in that scenario.. take pride in that.. thump ur chest...
 
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No, that wasn't the point.

The point was that indians couldn't do jack sh!t UNTIL the superpower disturbed the balance of forces in the region. In a sense, indians got "lucky" when it comes to launching an assymetric war against your enemy. We had been doing it to india for decade or so quite successfully while indians barely had any response.

Anyways, enemies fight. You hit, you get hit.

As long as there is balance of power between Pakistan and India--we are happy.

And only fanboys or downright idiots would deny the existence of such balance when it comes to the overall military prowess of both countries (even if the balance is titled in india's favor due to obvious advantages in size and manpower).
Agreed ...
 
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@The SC

Conclusion

Many of the above mentioned platforms and weapon systems are already inducted or are about to inducted. These do not include the platforms which are still in planning stage. I omitted quite a lot of systems especially the naval ones. Cherry picking a couple of examples like self propelled artillery or LCA is not going to help Pak's cause. When it comes to the overall war fighting capabilities India is surging far far ahead of Pakistan.

So in short, the gap between Indian and Pakistani conventional capabilities is absolutely huge and will keep growing at a break neck speed.

Quite contrary.

The gap between conventional forces was biggest in 2001-02 stand-off---whereby indians were forced to withdraw unilaterally in humiliation after losing nearly 2000 soldiers.

Today, the conventional gap is much, much smaller *relative* to what it was in 2001-02 stand off.

Don't try to fool yourself. This is a defence forum. We know the facts here lol
 
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And that disturbed our social fabric and brought us to our knees.

Good analysis. It's also nice that you've figured out how to make it a one-way street, to ensure it never happens to you. It must be blissful to be in a country where there're no bomb blasts in the streets, and where there are no insurgents being hunted down b y the Army, no attacks on your armed forces command centres, your hospitals and your schools, even on your military bases.

Superb management of the situation.

half of their country is a no-go area for civilians and journalists... and these fellows talk about disruption... what an irony... and they dont have a single hospital to treat their PM or any other leaders and yet these fellows boast about terrorists being their own... a collapse is imminent with the debt crisis looming.
 
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You seem to have forgotten the Pakistani air defenses, their cruise missiles and submarines old and new..and i am talking about military science , the example of WW2 was nothing but an example of the ratio between armies, today as it stands, that ratio between India and Pakistan is 1.2:1, this ratio includes all aspects of armed forces, air, sea and land..
If i start mentioning my air defence like S-400,Spyder Air defence our radars,our cruise missile Brahmos and Indian Navy,
Difference will be further enhanced also your Air defence will be taken out first by Jaguars specially maintain for SEAD/DEAD OPERATIONS.
 
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