India's Cold Start Is Too Hot

[Tiki Tam Tam]

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[muse]

only than we can be on par in defence with india

Why is this desirable?

After all, are Pakistan's problem weaponry or political disarray? Economy?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The very article on which the thread is based has mentioned how India's Cold Start is to be addressed by Pakistan.

To be on par with India in defence, one has to be economically strong with political stability.

Currently a Pakistani Minister is in Saudi Arabia asking them to bolster the Pakistani Budget.

 

[notorious_eagle]

The very article on which the thread is based has mentioned how India's Cold Start is to be addressed by Pakistan.

To be on par with India in defence, one has to be economically strong with political stability.

Currently a Pakistani Minister is in Saudi Arabia asking them to bolster the Pakistani Budget.

No doubt about that, in the short term Pakistan can maintain its deterrence against India. But for Pakistan to keep its deterrence against India for the long term, Pakistan needs prosper economically and reforms are needed throughout the country to ensure prosperity continues.

 

[Peshwa]

2008 and especially 2002 were not the right time to attack for India because simply put India lacked the capabilities that were needed to ensure a comprehensive defeat that was politically acceptable. Even if India managed to kill more Pakistani troops as compared to hers, what exactly were the objectives? I have read that the objectives were to punish Pakistan, but even if India manages to do exactly that but in the end withdraws from the land she captures, that is still a propaganda victory for Pakistan.

I agree to a certain extent....

It wasnt as much the capability as the lack of a political goal/will....there was no way to escalate the situation without full scale war being an imminent after effect...
Yes the goal was to punish Pakistan, but what is considered "punishment"? Where do we stop? The root of the problem "Kashmir" was not going dissapear and this would have created more problems than solutions...
So in essence, we were basically acting on emotions than brains....and I think in the end we made the right choice...

2002 was absolutely the right time for India to attack and if things would have gone right for India, trust me she would have attacked.

No it wasnt. as mentioned above....the goal is as important to the war as the soldiers themselves.
Without this, we come out as war mongering aggressors....an image that Indians have been very careful not to project...

It failed big time because it took 3 weeks for Indian strike formations to reach their war time positions against Pakistan, while in less than 2 weeks Pakistani divisions from as far away as Balochistan and KP were at the Indian borders. By the time the Indian strike formations reached their war time positions, Pakistani troops were well dug in taking the advantage away from India. Without firing a single bullet, the Indians lost almost 800 soldiers.

Pakistan is not a country with immense breadth both an advantage and disadvantage....so it makes sense that mobilizing will be easier, but on a losing foot can be detrimental...

Op Parakram was a great learning as it helped us understand the weak link in our offense ie. Mobilization...

Calling it a failure would be simplistic since it has largely set the tone for future Indian strategy in case of war....
But yes "Punishing Pak" was not achieved from a military standpoint....though diplomatic achievements can be argued.

Same goes for what happened in 2008, the Indian Army could not deliver a victory that was politically acceptable for the Indian people and that is why the Indian Army stood still.

Actually I think this is the biggest misconception ever....

Yes, I agree that the people wanted blood, but 26/11 was able to achieve more than what we could have through military intervention...

It highlighted the problem of terrorism that India faced and allowed India to garner world sympathy...
It not only allowed India to get LET and JUD on the blacklist, but also put the links between ISI and LET (You can argue against this) under the microscope...
But the greatest achievement that 26/11 allowed India was to take the pressure off Kashmir...
It gave India a clean pass for any retaliation and enough propoganda tools to make any Kashmiri "violence" seem motivated through Pakistani links....
All in all, we came out looking as a country that held back from aggression even though having the conventional capability to deliver the blow...It put India in the club of the "victims" of terrorism that only allowed us to find other common causes to partner with nations...
I feel this was "goal achieved"

There were 2 reasons why India did not attack:
1. Pressure from the US and allies that did not want to disrupt their own WOT
2. Congress with its economic success did not want to risk the growth and the strong economy by pressing war.....Diplomatic channels can do a lot more damage than military options at times....I have stated my analysis above.

I dont know where did you get the idea that PA is loosing its sleep because of the Cold Start, infact it has only helped our Armed Forces in opening their eyes and forcing them to engage in their modernization plans. After staying static for a decade, they are finally acquiring technology to close in the gaps where the Indians previously enjoyed absolute superiority. Its quite clear to me that the Indian Army is loosing its sleep and that is why your senior officers are raising concerns in the media, i dont see the same happening on our side of the border. But than again, if you close one of your eyes to reality this is exactly what is going to happen.

A plethora of evidence is available:
Cold start being the main motivator behind the "modernization" plans as you put it yourself (even though Indians deny the existance of any such doctrine)
Wikileaks has divulged that the PA/State has been quite Paranoid regarding CS even though the US feels that CS neither exists, nor the Indians have capability to execute as such
CS has been the main reason why PA has shyed away from deploying the much needed troops towards the WOT

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The whole issue of the Cold Start is that Pakistan has lost its advantage of having the initiative to launch and capture some areas before India could say Jack Robinson (owing to its tardy mobilisation) and then have India launching a countervaling action elsewhere and attempt going deeper and by that time the international powerbrokers intervened and stopped the war before India could do anything more.

Thus when the ceasefire came all was equal or near equal, take a few hundred square miles plus or minus.

Now, India can thrust in at the word go, even before the world reacted, and go to the limit taken to be the nuclear threshold and have a fair amount of territory and hold Pakistan's CA elsewhere (though Pakistan will be able to make headway to some extent).

Ceasefire.

India has more!

Nothing great actually.

But good for the news headlines and jingos to go ga ga about.

In short, peace is better.

 

[blackops]

The thread was going pretty good with very informed discussions until a couple of people ( blackops,BRIC,relativiti, SR blackbird)) showed up sh*t all over it. I think the MODS really need to do something about this. I am sick and tired of every thread being turned into a d**k measuring contest. Regardless of the flags, tehy should be punished.

Put the name of that eagle there look at my previous posts was there any trolling no but when your man comes up with sh!t what can i do so nest time see the whole picture not just a single part

 

[muse]

Now, India can thrust in at the word go, even before the world reacted, and go to the limit

Girlfriend, Plueez

 

[blackops]

At the end it can be said india wants that surprise advantage and the punch to dilever lethal blow first which it lacked previously secondly it is not clear wether which division of the armed forces will react first in ia iaf or all together

 

[Areesh]

You have the right to unleash your "freedom fighters" which we disprove of. We have the right to react and you will have the right to retaliate with what is left.

We would have every thing necessary to retaliate whenever we would want to retaliate. It is up to the aggressor to smell the coffee and refrain from doing something grossly stupid.

 

[sergente rehan]

For sure to counter any such strategy or overall any type of aggression toward Pakistan, all three armed forces must be trained and modernize to stay with par to all other major enemy forces. We have to develope a longterm strategy taking into consideration all the geopolitical scenarios and strategic goals. We have to change our mindset, this will be difficult for some people in high command but new war scenarios are quite diffrent from the past as new tech are introduced also the strategies must be revised. A synergy btw all three forces is the core issue. Overall situation of our armed forces is not so bad as many people thinks. They are well trained and very professional with right equipement. New acquisitions are comming and we are re-shaping our militry force. PN was ignored for several time but now days they have been given due attention, although we need to implement the budget of PN but that will be possible only if we will be able to improve our economy.

For me now days our main concern and priority is to improve overall law and order situation, economy and development of Pakistani nation.

 

[muse]

Is Cold Start something that ads a burden upon Pakistan, is inherently dangerous? If you agree that Cold Start is something to be avoided - how can Pakistan avoid it ??

 

[blackops]

Is Cold Start something that ads a burden upon Pakistan, is inherently dangerous? If you agree that Cold Start is something to be avoided - how can Pakistan avoid it ??

Well i once got a chance to talk to a major genral as i live in his city he told me in a very light way that india is doing the same what USA did to soviets just put preasure on the economy reast all will follow and yes it looks like it is working to counter india pakistan did raise its defence budget by 17% while as india reduced it to a more lower % of its gdp at the end to counter india pak will buy plus the money being dpent on wot

 

[Mike2011]

2002: India makes huge hue and cries and launches Operation Parakram, Pakistan mobilizes at a much faster rate than India and reaches the border long before India can. India is left red faced and made to look impotent against a much more smaller enemy.

2008: After the Mumbai attacks, Indian FM is threatening Pakistan with war by saying 'All Options are on the Table". IAF AVM comes out on TV and states that they have earmarked 5000 targets inside Pakistan. Pakistan calls out India's bluff and starts to mobilize, the Indian leaders realizing that they cannot force Pakistan into military submission, start coming out with statements such as "War is not the answer". India is again made to look impotent infront of a much more smaller enemy.

The results are right infront of you, you just have to open your eyes to see them. Unfortunately if you close your eyes to the reality and start believing whatever propaganda your Government feeds you, obviously you wont be able to see the reality.

8 things India Inc, govt must do against Pakistan

I believe the steps are in place and working...

 

[Dazzler]

Well i once got a chance to talk to a major genral as i live in his city he told me in a very light way that india is doing the same what USA did to soviets just put preasure on the economy reast all will follow and yes it looks like it is working to counter india pakistan did raise its defence budget by 17% while as india reduced it to a more lower % of its gdp at the end to counter india pak will buy plus the money being dpent on wot

With one exception here, US and USSR were not neighbors neither they fought three intense battles. Both countries spend a huge chunk of their respective budgets on defense. India has the advantage of huge economy, yes, but even Pakistan does not spend every single penny of her earnings on defense products. Reading a bit of post ww2 reveals that USSR had more than a dozen issues, topping them was a huge territory, it had a frenzy of making weapons and inducting almost everything in active service. This is not the case with Pakistan, there is a reason why we maintain a Minimum Deterrence policy.