India's civilian aircraft plan expected to get nod tomorrow

[Sergi]

actually,India is building many mini airports where you don't need a 240 seaters..I doubt those will even need a 90 seaters for now.for now,mainly small aircrafts and helos will be needed.but then,it'll be needed when this Aircraft will come out.for bigger aircrafts,we can always go for international companies,right???

Yes. Planning is like that. But focus is on small planes 15/20 seaters owned by private people and airliners to give connectivity to small cities.
But I dont think planners yet have think about it seriously and we have the needed infrastructure to deal with such air traffic.

This mid class will rarely have market. I would be more than glad if I am wrong but I am against waisting public money. Instead they should have used this money for decade delayed "Medium Transport aircraft project" and should have derived Civilian version from that.

 

[_ABHISHEK_]

They must let Private players into R&D,then the Job will get done much faster

 

[Sergi]

Capacity building- you must first crawl before you can run.....



I would ideally like to see Indian pvt player participation in such projects though.

How about transferring these resources to MTA project where we can have Jv with Russians and derive a civilian version from that.

Economical and feasible. Plus even if the platform is rejected by civilian aviation it will nit be a big loss.

Fun fact : in space first you learn to fly then to float and last thing is walk. So it depends where you are. And I hope Saras might have walked us though feel.

+ buddy it is similar to the unwanted development of our basic trainer aircraft but there IAF publicly denied requirement here no such target group is available.

 

[JohnyD]

time to fly thousand seater trains in the sky not 90 capacity mini bus! If country of 1.3 billion is developing 90 seater plane as rapid mode of transportation then we will end up crowding sky like autos on mumbai roads! I think our policy makers thought process are 25 yrs old!

 

[Koovie]

time to fly thousand seater trains in the sky not 90 capacity mini bus! If country of 1.3 billion is developing 90 seater plane as rapid mode of transportation then we will end up crowding sky like autos on mumbai roads! I think our policy makers thought process are 25 yrs old!

And you think that our aviation industry can come up with a big airliner which can ferry hundreds of people ?! (I hope the thousand was a bad joke), You think that someone would use a wide body aircraft for regional flights?

 

[sancho]

How ???

I dont see need for any civilian plane in mid range. Nobody use them. Why not try build something in 230/240 capacity range. Those are used by all airliners.

I also don't see a requirement. It's not like there is much space in the civil airline market left for an Indian player and as usual our expectations are getting higher and higher during the development, which makes thinks more complicated than really needed.
At the begining the requirement was based on 50 to 70 passenger turbo prob aircrafts and to compete with ATR. Now we aim on propper civil jet airliners in the range of Embraer. And even if you do that, a capacity around the Airbus A320 or the Boeing 737 should be aimed at, since India requires a lot of these aircrafts for flights within India and the countries around us (Gulf region, Malaysia, Singapore...)

What is more troubling for me is, that NAL has teamed up with HAL and DRDO. Why on earth do we need all our government own companies involved in such a civil aircraft development? Let NAL do it with Mahindra, they already work together at developing aircrafts. TATA would be another option, simply to not occupy HAL and DRDO again with projects, that will distract them from other important once. Not to mention that there are foreign options too, like Antonov! They have financial problems, but a lot of expertice and would be a logical partner.

And to make it even worse imo, why even develop a complete new aircraft, when we simply could develop a civil airliner based on MTA?

 

[Brahmos_2]

Point me the target group. Airliners prefer bulk carriage. So they look for bigger planes.

And about cost..... Lets not comment on that before its in development phase but to have an idea have look at the existing projects and cost estimates over the years.

That depends on the route they choose..if they want to operate from, Delhi to Mumbai, bigger aircrafts like 737 or A320 will be their natural choice since they will get enough passengers to fill the seats...but if they want to connect two small regional airports using bigger airplanes will not be profitable.

In India,
Jet Airways have a fleet of 17 70seater ATR-72s.
Spice jet have 15 78seater Bombardier Dash 8s.

 

[confound thinker]

Point me the target group. Airliners prefer bulk carriage. So they look for bigger planes.

I,m not an expert but I doubt that it isn't always the case. It may be, that especially in domestic routes and in those domestic routes where the no of passengers are not that high and not very frequent then it will be very uneconomical to have bulk carriers but it may be still economical to operate a smaller carrier and in India especially when so many tier 2 and tier 3 cities are coming up there can be a huge market for them.

 

[confound thinker]

And about cost..... Lets not comment on that before its in development phase but to have an idea have look at the existing projects and cost estimates over the years.

Ye you are absolutely true about cost overruns but that cannot mean that cannot mean that you should not do any cost and other feasibility analysis before projects of such big scales.And also you cannot completely ignore the figures of such scientific studies by saying that they will always be entirely false.You go by the data you have and try to do your best while developing the project and to avoid cost overruns.If you don't try then it is sure that you are bound to fail and if you try you always get better.

 

[confound thinker]

Yes. Planning is like that. But focus is on small planes 15/20 seaters owned by private people and airliners to give connectivity to small cities.
But I dont think planners yet have think about it seriously and we have the needed infrastructure to deal with such air traffic.

This mid class will rarely have market. I would be more than glad if I am wrong but I am against waisting public money. Instead they should have used this money for decade delayed "Medium Transport aircraft project" and should have derived Civilian version from that.

I think that the civillian version of the MTA is already planned and India will be in charge of it.It will roll out soon after the military version is completed.It will be a 100 seater turbofan aircraft.

 

[Brahmos_2]

.

And to make it even worse imo, why even develop a complete new aircraft, when we simply could develop a civil airliner based on MTA?

That's a bad idea!! MTA is having a 'high wing' configuration,which is not suitable for passenger aircrafts.

high wing aircrafts are not so efficient in high speeds(cruising period) but they give better performances at low speeds.

If you want an aircraft which is capable of taking off from a small runway with heavy payload,better go for a highwing aircraft.
C-17 & IL-76 are perfect examples.

Passenger aircrafts normally employ low or mid wing configurations.

I think that the civillian version of the MTA is already planned and India will be in charge of it.It will roll out soon after the military version is completed.It will be a 100 seater turbofan aircraft.

Is that true?? any source?

 

[HK Indian MBT]

Come on guys dont get carried away ! This new project is Pay Roll of DRDO Babus Next genration . We all care for our kinds rite ? So DRDO officials Son and Grand son will get Life time benifit from this project. Whole genration of DRDO gained lots with Tejas and Kaveri.Its time for next Gen ! Govt creating more Jobs

 

[indoPunjabi]

Wtf Is wrong with Congress government??

For heaven sake stop wasting public money for these kind of stupid ideas. :banghead:

Mid size civilian plane? Seriously?

Common people don't fly in the planes. They travel in buses and trains. Bloody hell at least provide Them better buses, trains, clean railway station and modern bus stops. India is a third world poor country. Gov must focus on basic needs of common people rather than building air planes for rich and famous and corrupt politicians.



DRDO, HAL, NAL, blah blah organizations must finish tejas project before floating new useless ideas! Sale incompetent BC

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

That's a bad idea!! MTA is having a 'high wing' configuration,which is not suitable for passenger aircrafts.

high wing aircrafts are not so efficient in high speeds(cruising period) but they give better performances at low speeds.

If you want an aircraft which is capable of taking off from a small runway with heavy payload,better go for a highwing aircraft.
C-17 & IL-76 are perfect examples.



Passenger aircrafts normally employ low or mid wing configurations.

Nice..and to add to that wings are swept backwards for high speed flight as it allows the aircraft to fly much cose to Mcrit.

 

[sancho]

That's a bad idea!! MTA is having a 'high wing' configuration,which is not suitable for passenger aircrafts.

Says who? Buddy I didn't posted the pic out of no reason, the blue colored aircraft in the front is the MTA in the military version, but the white one behind is a MTA passanger version for civil airlines, without the rear ramp, but with side doors and windows! A civil conversion was considered from the very begining from Russian and Indian partners, but RTA now is just another example how we make things too complicated.

The medium transport aircraft (MTA) is the intended replacement for the IAF's large fleet of An-32 and HAL/Hs-748 freighters. To be developed in partnership with Irkutsk Aviation Industrial Corporation, Ilyushin Aviation complex and Rosoboronexport, it will feature a digital FBW flight control system, a glass cockpit, integrated avionics and will be able to operate from semi-prepared runways. There will be a passenger version with a 100-120 seat capacity and a cargo version with a 15-20 tonne cargo capacity. With concurrent series production, development is expected to take six years with the delivery of the first aircraft to customers in the seventh year. The pictured designs show a clear evolution from the Aero-India 2001 model exhibits.

Aero India 2003 - Part 5


Btw, high wing aircrafts might have more advantages in the cargo field, but are widely used as passenger aircraft in short to medium ranges too, which means the same regional area as the RTA is aimed to.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/8/4/1814489.jpg
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/3/6/1879637.jpg

AN-158 / New Regional Passenger Jet

The AN−158 is a regional jet of a new generation intended to carry up to 99 passengers over a range up to 4000 km. It is designed on a basis of AN−148 regional jet. The AN-158 has high commonality with its predecessor, in particular, they have common main systems, engines, cockpit and flight control system, MRO, flight crew training system. Comfort level of these airplanes correspond to the most modern airliners, their characteristics and safety level meets current and prospective world standards and requirements.

AN-158
AN-148
AN-74TK-300


Do 328 (the bigger brother of the Do 228 that HAL produces too)

With prop engines:
http://www.luftfahrt.net/galerie/ph...3_D-COSA_Fairchild-Dornier-328_Team-Lufth.jpg

With jet engines:
http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/dornier_do328300jet_karstenpalt.jpg


Same reason why I still suggest to develop the MTA with jet engines with the Russians and let HAL/NAL build a prop engined version of it, while both could be used for civil purposes.